Dragon Element Scythe was a mistake


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2/13/2020 2:02:51

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

Setting aside feedback about challenge design, there is one other elephant in the room regarding current DF.
The Dragon Element Scythe was a mistake.

What's the issue?
Ever since they were released, they've fulfilled two roles: both to compress the need for 8 elements into one, and also to be a strong weapon for all 8 of the main elements.
Now, these are great purposes and the scythe is probably one of the top things to spend DCs on, but it has had a very bad effect on weapon design.

It has effectively killed interesting weapons for the main-8 elements.
Whenever a new main-8 weapon is released, first it gets compared to DSoE in regards to damage and stats, which the scythe has plenty of. 15 crit, 9 mpm, 12 wis 10 end, 18 mainstat, 15 res on 3 common elements, 10 immob, to name a few. Weapons from normal releases basically cannot ever keep up.

This leads to a second issue, which is that for most of the main-8 elements, there have been zero new best weapons in years.
Just take a look at the best non-DC weapons for each element:
Fire: Threadcutter (dc 96) >>> Encrusted Splatula (rare 93) >>> Reaper's Axe (90)
Water: Yllmar > Abyssal Water Elf Scepter (93)
Wind: Sea Chicken
Ice: Winter's Cull (93) = Frost Moglin Knight (93) = Frozen Breath (93)
Stone: Thorn Replica (93) > Emhrys (93)
Energy: Scythe of Liberty (rare 94) > Dragonoid (93)
Light: Ultimate Destiny (100)
Dark: NSoD(99) > NSoD (93) > Unlucky Dark Weapon (92)

Of course, the Soulforged weapon exists (95), but it has the exact same problem in effectively being a customizable weapon that absolutely destroys its competitors (Soulforged Scythe is crazy too - 10 bpd 4 mpm 16 mainstat 10 all -- better than almost every main-8 choice!).
For 5/8 elements, there hasn't been a choice competitive or better than DSoE literally in years.

Elements that would like a new meta weapon:
Fire: Ascendant
Ice: Icebound Revenant
Nature: EPL
Energy: Voltabolt
Darkness: Entropy

While I think it's good that DSoE exists, I think it's a huge problem that it has made weapons uninteresting. Not only is DSoE a catch-all for up to 8 elements for all three classes, it also effectively means the best weapon for the main 8 elements has the same stats. No opportunity to have weapons with more interesting tradeoffs when the best choice crushes them (also why things like Frozen Breath are less impressive).

Also worth mentioning that DSoE costs 500 DCs and offers significantly more utility than the monthly DC weapons.
It's nice that the monthly DC items aren't meant to be overly powerful, but DSoE and Antithesis are extremely overtuned, and the others while good, are probably weaker than DSoE which doesn't even go rare.

This is also an opportunity to introduce content that's relatively easy to make but takes a long time for players to get. Just borrow things from other AE games! Give them fair but lengthy merges. There should always be a thing to do and get every week. Reimagined is also an opportunity for this. Add things that may not require a whole lot to make, but have interesting stats and add lore, such as Zeclem's Items which had a story. I'm sure there's a way to use this somehow.

AQW

Post #: 1

2/13/2020 7:30:15

xelessarx
Member

I agree wholeheartedly. There are some game design choices in DF that kinda restrict diversity when it comes to BiS.

Soulforged weapons can be given as another example in a different manner. There are all those cool staff, sword, etc. designs and different element colors. Yet the BiS is automatically Ice Soulforged Scythe and so I have seen only a tiny amount of people who has a soulforged weapon that is not a scythe and ice elemental. I feel like all those other designs are kinda going into waste and as you can't get more than one spirit you can't really have them if you want to have a strong weapon for the inn or other bosses.

Would like it more if the Soulforge worked like you can get upto 2 or 3 Soulforged weapons at the same time and not just 1, but they'd just be cosmetic except the 1st weapon you got. Or maybe it'd be so that you just couldn't get two Soulforged weapons of the same level, dunno. It'd just be nice to actually have a chance to use them as fashion items without worrying about sacrificing a huge amount from your maximum damage output in the Inn.

Post #: 2

2/13/2020 11:06:36

Ultima29
Member

Show items is a mistake. It just makes ice so much better than most elements and ironically defeats the initial purpose of the show feature that was supposed to let us appreciate the art of different weapons instead of fishing for an on hit proc. Its meta to just run around with the ugly looking icescythe just to proc the -ice. I get that its a bug turned into a feature but if Verlyrus ever finds a way to fix the bug I hope he does.

Post #: 3

2/13/2020 18:19:17

ProbablyCallum
Member

I dont think showing weapons is a mistake at all. Its a way to increase the depth of combat by using the stats of one weapon and the on hit/passive/attack button special of another weapon. Where the problem lies is how good ice scythe is in comparison to other weapon specials. Ice having access to -30 ice on anything against enemies is pretty silly and makes it by far and away the best, even if weapon specials were killed and all the other fair weapon specials like dragon amulet weapons and blade of awe suffered for it ice scythe would still end up getting equipped to proc its effect before swapping to something like antithesis, soulforged ice or dragon element scythe because -30 is just that good. Killing show weapon specials would barely hurt the excessive usage of ice scythe and kill a lot of the depth the game has by making more utility based specials like blade of awe/doomblade of sorrows and racial specials like vile rose unviable. I'd like to see either ice scythe's effect go or more inn fights where ice as an element is at a disadvantage, either with fights having gimmicks based around having to use non ice elements like how frallmar sort of did or the less interesting route of just slapping +30 ice on any future inn fight where verly doesnt want ice scythe to be abused or an enrage effect if the ice scythe effect gets applied like how inn seppy immediately gains +10 all if you try to stan him.

< Message edited by ProbablyCallum -- 2/13/2020 18:46:27 >

Post #: 4

2/13/2020 18:40:08

Mooselim
Member

I agree with what Callum said - show specials adds a level of depth to the game outside of actual class mechanics that I personally enjoy. I feel like taking it away would kill the specials of a lot of things and would force people to use Ice Scythe to be the most optimal, and prevent using things like Blade of Awe for healing because of the sheer amount of sacrifice. Leaping to removing something isn't a great idea either, at the very least rebalancing certain specials should be considered first before jumping to that idea. I do personally agree that Ice-Scythe is ugly, but fashion doesn't have much of place in the Inn and shouldn't really be considered in this discussion.

< Message edited by Mooselim -- 2/13/2020 21:42:17 >

Post #: 5

2/14/2020 5:48:21

TFS
Helpful!

This seems like a very weird and arbitrary take to me. Some weapons being better than others is just how RPGs work, and having DF's special anniversary weapon being stronger than random one-off quest drops or monthly rares doesn't really seem unreasonable or problematic at all. It's not like DDSoE is anywhere near as good as weapons that are actually challenging to get, like those from the Inn/Yllmar, or even those with lore/story significance like the Destiny or Soulforged weapons. It's really good to have, sure, but it's not like edges out or even beats every other weapon in the game. Having the special anniversary weapon be useful but not essential isn't something to complain about IMO; I'd even go so far as to say if it were any other way you'd have more of a reason to complain.

quote:

Just borrow things from other AE games! Give them fair but lengthy merges. There should always be a thing to do and get every week.

...Why? If you want a pointless grind bloat every week instead of story or gameplay just play AQWorlds, dude.

Post #: 6

2/14/2020 20:07:49

Legendary Ash
Member

I think that DF weapons should be balanced through numbers to be equivalent of each other with respect to its Gold/DC/DA tier power standards.

For example after weapon special is modified by proc rate, a standard gold weapon special is worth 10%, On hit specials like Destiny weapon are worth 5%, Monsterkin trigger are worth 30%, DC Gloom Glaive is worth 50% - Furious Crest Scythe is worth 60% and DA Necrotic Sword is worth 60%.

The majority of DF's weapons have flat spread stats, only few have Defensive/Offensive stat leans, it should be desirable that Devs release weapons with uncommon special effects to provide strategic value outside of class, trinkets and Guest/Pet Dragon.

Post #: 7

2/15/2020 3:01:08

The_element
Member

The Dragon Element Scythes aren't mistakes, but Quadstaff is.

Buff Quadstaff

Post #: 8

2/15/2020 10:33:11

mahasamatman
Member

I missed something here. What's Antithesis?

I agree with Legendary Ash- The Scythe is not a problem, just like Exalted Apotheosis is not a problem even though it's the best weapon, period.

However, the fact that there aren't really different stats or effects to experiment with is a bit of an issue- I'd love, for example, to see more weapons like Threadcutter. Sadly, even though threadcutter is great for CW, Ex-Ap is still better.
Or see more weapons with specials that match their elements- healing for light, -boost for earth, DoT for fire...

But hey, that's something the staff is obviously working on! Lately we've seen tons of new ideas along those lines, so I'd say we just need to wait and see what Verly has in store for us.

Post #: 9

2/15/2020 20:32:01

FMan
Member

Show items while getting it's effect isnt a mistake.
1. It adds additional option of strategy, which show weapon to use.

2. It helps people complete challanges/bosses, taking it will nerf their abillity.some people already complain about the recently storyli bosses strength, so nerfing them will hurt the community more. ( Also goes to those who have hard time in challanges, and the bonus from showing a weapon helps them win).

3. Players can enjoy costumes if they want to right now too, just removing an option which buffs them only hurts the community and doesn't make any sense.
Closing options to the community is bad in overall, but RN those who want to use fashionable gears can do it, and those who need the bonus from showing an item, can do it too . Its also possible to show fashionable items in easy quests, and use that feature to buff a person's char in hard times.

Post #: 10

2/18/2020 13:23:46

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

quote:

I missed something here. What's Antithesis?

It's a set of weapons that was released way back in December 2018. They give +50 to their respective main stat (STR/DEX/INT), and have a constant damage range, giving them strong offensive potential, and switch between Fire and Ice on hit, so if you show another weapon over them after dealing a hit of Ice damage, they can be set to dealing only Ice damage until you show and hit something with them again, which is great for Ice Scythe users (Ice) and Ascendant (Fire). Sadly, though, they hadn't returned the last Christmas and are presumed to be unobtainable.

DF	Post #: 11

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