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=AQ= Infernal Champion Sets

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11/21/2022 9:02:17   
CHAIML
Member

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Bark and Bite
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This year he Harvest Festival is in danger of being thoroughly trampled, as beasts from the icy North spill out onto the farmlands from the forest to the West! Investigate this odd migration and find help to deal with these displaced creatures as you find new allies and learn about stirring threats!

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Elder's Gear
This month we have new Elder’s gear in the Golden Giftboxes! Don’t catch yourself maidenless and pick up 4 new player faces and 4 katana variants - with and without special attacks.

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Infernal Champion Sets -50K Z-Token Packages
We’re bringing 2 demonic sets for the Black Friday and Cy-burn Monday season! The plane of Heck is a chaotic land where only the strongest thrive, ruled by the right of absolute conquest. It is the ever-warring clash of eight domains, each a twisted mirror of the Elemental Realms. This is the only history the Eight Tyrannies share with mortals... Because their conquest was NOT final. Reveal the forbidden knowledge of Heck's rebels with the armaments of an Infernal Champion! Command your allies and drain your foes' life as a defensive firebrand, or take a darker approach by combining efficiency and devastation as a mystical warrior! Let the Tyrannies fear the forgotten name of the First Demon! Each package includes:

1 Armor
1 Shield
Melee, Magic, and Ranged Weaponry
4 Player Faces
1 Title
Grab these powerful sets while you can as they will only be available until January 5th!

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Get the Collector's Edition of the 2022 Artix Calendar Poster and unlock the 12 x 18 bonus Continuum Chronomancer collector's print + an exclusive in-game rewards.

Tag....O...Ooo..Ouch.. hot...hot infernal package...hot...Tag you're it. ~Anim

< Message edited by AnimalKing -- 11/21/2022 11:51:39 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 1
11/21/2022 9:40:32   
Zennistrad
Member

Art for the new Black Friday sets looks sick, as usual.

Based on the description, it looks to be some kind of dual defensive beastmaster/offensive hybrid sets? I guess we'll have to wait and see.
AQ  Post #: 2
11/21/2022 14:17:42   
Sapphire
Member

50k package that's catered to a BM build? Might be a dream come true. Or a wickedly evil tease that will only disappoint! Idk, might have to get Smaite's insight.
Post #: 3
11/21/2022 14:45:08   
Sphinx Jevoha
Member


@The Hollow The Infernal Champions have a strong link to the realm of Heck, and the realm of Heck is, as per Lore, associated with infernal slavery and binding (the entire Staff of Agony's Chains, Axe and Spear set is based on this). Would it be possible to have one of the Skills on the FD Infernal set as a skill that forces the enemy to use Fire attacks for a certain number of rounds? A bit like the triggered Zombie Hunter set. Basically it imbues the enemy's weapon with Fire element. This would fit perfectly with the thematic concept of Infernal Champions "enslaving" their enemies in Hell, etc.

Post #: 4
11/21/2022 15:14:37   
RobynJoanne
Member
 

 @Sphinx Jevoha
From a thematic standpoint, there's no indication that the Infernal Champions do enslaving of any kind. It simply says they drain their foes' life, which would imply some kind of siphon effect.

From a gameplay standpoint, monster Imbues are a dangerous idea. They will allow players to use a single setup for all kinds of monsters. They also break many monsters' mechanics. Many monsters derive a lot of difficulty from attacking with different elements. This would render that mechanic irrelevant. We've already seen how badly Zombie Hunter, Paladin, and Retro Golden/Communicant have turned certain bosses into cannon fodder. This would only worsen an existing problem, a problem that Lorekeeper has already stated will be partially rectified by turning Form Shift effects into temporary effects.

Monsters can Imbue player attacks because players have many tools available to them to deal with an Imbue. Players can skip their turns or cast spells. Monsters are not so flexible. There is no AI in their strategy that makes them change their behavior depending on Imbues applied on them, and coding such would take up time the devs simply do not have. There are simply too many negative consequences that come out of introducing a new mechanic like this without sufficient forethought.
Post #: 5
11/21/2022 20:16:09   
JhyShy
Member
 

 Just wanted to clarify, will this set will be rare and never return once Black Friday and Cyber Monday go away?
Post #: 6
11/21/2022 20:27:30   
Korriban Gaming
Member

+1 to Sphinx Jevoha's suggestion. Very unique and creative, always a fan of new ideas!

Stop self-imposing design space limits, the sky should be the limit!
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 7
11/21/2022 20:58:18   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 That is the very opposite of what the concept of design space was explained to be in a thread that I believe I've linked before.
Post #: 8
11/22/2022 1:13:49   
Sphinx Jevoha
Member



@Robyn You have made a good point, but you are forgetting several important factors:


The skill I'm suggesting for the FD Infernal armor is not a copy of the Zorbak Ally Assist.


Zorbak Ally Assist = No cost, Auto-hit, Auto-inflict, Permanent.

The Fire element-lock for enemy attacks I am suggesting = 392/490 SP cost (cannot spam it), normal BtH (can miss), normal save chance for enemy (can fail - especially against Bosses that have +20, +30 or even +40 Boss Boost), is temporary (not use-it-once-and-rest-of-the-battle-is-a-cake-walk).



For comparison, if you see Korriban Gaming's YouTube gaming channel, you will see that he uses the PaleSkull Champion set against almost all monsters, irrespective of elements. That's because the Choke Skill on it is very, very powerful - the enemy does something like x0.20 damage for several rounds (basically it reduces incoming damage by 80% for several rounds). But the balancing part? It's not free cast, not auto-hit, not auto-inflict, etc.


There is no way that a skill that forces the enemy to use only Fire attacks for 3 rounds is stronger than a skill that deals damage and reduces incoming damage by 80% or more for 3-4 rounds (the x0.20 Choke goes down to x0.10 at times, meaning 90% reduced incoming damage). Both of these have limitations, including chance to miss, chance to resist, etc.


The problem with a "life drain skill" is that is is almost insignificant compared to a Health Potion.


* Who uses FD armors? Mostly 250 END builds.

* And how much HP does a single Health Potion restore at 250 END?

* 950 HP.


Why spend SP + hope to hit + hope to inflict + hope heal is not based on enemy elemental modifier to heal, say, 200-300 HP, when you could literally press the HP Potion button and get a free, guaranteed, 950 HP heal, and after the battle, go to Guardian Tower and one-click to get back 25 HP Potions?


A skill that imbues enemies' attacks would be, as others above have pointed out, unique and the first of its kind. I just think more players would be interested in it, that's all.



< Message edited by Sphinx Jevoha -- 11/22/2022 1:28:01 >
Post #: 9
11/22/2022 8:59:14   
Sapphire
Member

I'm sure they'll both be good, as they're modern 50k packages. My hope is that one of these ends up being catered towards beastmasters. I would be extremely excited and grateful. That'd be something different, too. IDK, though..I might need to ask Smaite.
Post #: 10
11/22/2022 10:35:00   
RobynJoanne
Member
 

 @Sphinx
The implementation itself would require getting into the math because auto-hit, status rolls, and turn count are all just ways to modify the amount of Melee % you have available to you to apply a status effect. There's a problem there. Simply put, Imbues have no mathematical basis for their value. They cost 50% Melee for players, but there's no reason why they should cost 50% Melee except that the number's just convenient. In reality, Imbues as a mechanic break so many assumptions in AQ that there's no way we could value them properly, or at least, there's no way we could come to an agreement on said valuation. Imbues on the monster are similarly problematic mathematically. Here's the problem with the kind of assumption we should make here. Should we assume a monster deals Void damage, the worst-case scenario? Your damage intake at level is 200/13=15.38x the damage you'd take from a normal element. Void monsters already take a damage penalty to compensate, so you'd have to pay for that massive damage reduction from switching the monster's attack element. This would be absurd obviously since Void monsters are so rare, but that's the problem with this kind of thing. The very notion is so entirely based upon monsters' individual characteristics that any assumption would be hopelessly unrealistic for the majority of monsters. While unrealistic assumptions is fairly par for the course for AQ math, this is far beyond the norm.

As for Paleskull Champion, there are a couple of things to note here. First, it "only" applies a four-turn -42% damage Choke or x0.58 damage, not the x0.2 you're mentioning. Second, Paleskull's resists are only truly good against Water. Against other elements, it's mediocre at best. It doesn't matter that the monster is dealing x0.58 damage if you're taking three times or more the damage you'd normally take in an armor of the proper elemental resist. The latter is what Imbues on the monster would allow, and as I mentioned earlier, it's a valuation nightmare.

Regarding the life drain skill criticism you have, there are a few things that are simply not true. First, plenty of people use FD armors without End. FDBR is a popular build, and it requires 250 Dex/Cha/Luk. In fact, people with 250 End rarely play FD armors. There's a limit to the amount of defenses one could reasonably need. 250 End allows players to play in FO setups with a safety net. 250 End is also popular for Backlash players who use FO armors to take more damage for more Backlash damage. Second, many players don't like to use Potions. They're a resource that completely flies in the face of AQ's balance, and they're generally regarded as a tool for new players to get a leg up. It's a self-imposed challenge to not use something so fundamentally game-breaking, and it's hardly fair for these kinds of players to not get a new tool to use when a stronger and overpowered one exists. Finally, the Guardian Tower does not give 25 potions. It gives 4 potions.

I'd like to end off by saying something more positive since this may have come across as harsh. It's good that you want something unique and interesting. We could all use some new ideas around here to keep the game fresh. However, all new mechanics have lasting consequences on the game. The devs are still suffering from trying to rectify poorly planned ideas. AQ's entire history is filled with poorly planned ideas, an unfortunate consequence when the game is understaffed and releases are constant. Thus, we should always temper new ideas with some forethought. It's really the only way to avoid increasing the load on the overworked devs, and that, I believe, is something we can all agree is good.
Post #: 11
11/22/2022 10:55:04   
Sapphire
Member

No opinion on Sphinx's posts. As a generalized thought...on being cautious.

As long as it's not some sort of defacto reason to not try things. While nobody wants a broken game in terms of pushing envelopes to the point that the game is always on easy mode and thus it becomes boring, I would also make the argument that never trying things or attempting to be innovative leads to a broken game all the same...boredom will lead to its downfall either way.

Foresight is good, as long as a middle ground is struck. FUN is what matters. And diverse ways to make the game fun is being created at times with a few gambles. This is why things like PCO are ok.




Hopefully both sets will be worthy of the price tag.


Post #: 12
11/22/2022 11:01:55   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 We're quite open to trying new ideas, and frequently throw some at the wall. Sometimes that means quickly running into something that sounds cool and works out. Occasionally, it involves running into some walls. This could be because some ideas would be very time consuming and complicated to code (Such as variable costs with a lot of possible cases that'd be different for future iterations as well), cause severe problems (Such as items that would invalidate most boss mechanics - PCO being the prime example), or have to be delayed because they require some foundational work before implementation (Such as Archmage, new status effects, or items that require updating outdated ones).
Post #: 13
11/22/2022 14:20:44   
Sapphire
Member

I think staff does implement new ideas and sometimes try things that's never been done before, in an attempt at fun. I think there are some that don't like it, and don't like things like PCO...and you could name other things that are technically outside any standard.... (the mega soaker bow and the partner shield maybe being another less severe example)


Form shift immunity seems to curb PCO, so it's not as if PCO is the boss killer item that makes all bosses trivial. I have died a few times being unlucky attempting to use PCO, even against regular monsters. PCO could have probably used another 1-2 things to curb it, but I will say it also makes gameplay different. It created more strategy besides the old "just make sure you have all elements covered" zombie gameplay.

It made the game far more fun for me, personally.

And there have been items on occasion that have done this.

I would venture a guess and claim that sometimes these types of items create fun and can cause players to stick around and not leave due to the same types of stuff predictably being made, if/when the game tends to go that route. (Basing that on 20 years, not recent memory)

My post was more of a kudos to staff for trying things, and pointing out that a super strict adherence to a theoretical model at all times would be detrimental to any game, much less old ones, like AQ.
Post #: 14
11/22/2022 17:55:42   
RobynJoanne
Member
 
quote:

super strict adherence to a theoretical model at all times would be detrimental to any game, much less old ones, like AQ

That is indeed true, which is why my original comment did not rely on argument based on AQ's mathematical model. It was only when Sphinx mentioned the implementation of his idea that I added the math into an argument against his suggestion. Math is something that can be worked around. As long as a principle itself is sound, there are always ways to play around with costs to make things mathematically balanced. If Imbues on the monster were an okay idea for other reasons, it's totally possible to brainstorm a way to make it as mathematically balanced as we can. When we reach the limits of mathematical balance within reason, we can still hand-wave and fudge things a bit until the costs are practically balanced with the effects. I don't think an argument based purely on mathematical balance is convincing for most, which is why I try to avoid doing so.
Post #: 15
11/23/2022 9:09:34   
Korriban Gaming
Member

The new set looks absolutely amazing! Whether it's art, animation or effects, I think the staff have really outdone themselves this time. I hope we can see more fun items like that in the future, even before getting the set, just looking at the subs alone gets me so pumped and excited to play the game. It's items like these that bring back that "magic touch" that old AQ items/releases used to have. I will probably pick up one of them before they leave, or maybe even both, who knows.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 16
11/23/2022 9:15:59   
Novyx
Member

Quick question, are there no $50 mini-sets for these new packages this time around? Iirc the last couple Black Friday/Cyber Monday had smaller packages which came with the weapon + shield, or the armour by itself, but I'm not sure if I'm just completely missing them somewhere.
Post #: 17
11/23/2022 21:01:43   
GwenMay
Member

I have bought both sets, and I have to say I'm impressed. Great work from the team on these! The art, mechanics, and even lore on these sets are top notch. Worth the money.

Infernal is amazing for any beast build. It's effectively a new beastmaster subrace armor on par with neko, paladin, necro, and BoW, with a whopping 5 abilities on the armor. Also, the weapon has an amazing poison siphon that inflicts a 100% melee poison, with 50% coming from damage and 50% from sp cost. A cursory review of the info subs reveals how strong it is. With very little setup, I've found you can easily get 1000+ poison heals.

Abyssal would be much better if it was in any element other than dark. As it is, its overcharged spell is outmatched by necro, even with the init bonus. Still, its a versatile armor, with a good efficient skill, initiative, an mp option, and a very strong darkness elevuln toggle. The abyssal shield is also amazing, letting you pick between str/int, str/dex, or dex/int boosts. The weapon is a strict upgrade over the dragonlord set, letting you choose between damage and regen mode and between sp and mp regen; so, if regen weps are your cup of tea, I suggest picking it up. I will be putting the shield on many characters.

Some general thoughts:

• I really wish abyssal was not dark. I understand it's a "Black" Friday set, but in future years I would appreciate if staff would branch out into other elements. My understanding is that the set art is made before the mechanics, so creating a non-dark set would have to be thought of from the set's inception. I recommend taking a page out of AQW's Black Friday playbook, and doing Cyber Monday/Pink sets instead of or in addition to black/dark sets.

• I would also like to see the previous Black Friday sets, like Hollowborn, Doomlight, and Chaosborn, come back. Those are all excellent niche sets, and I feel like players should have a seasonal chance to purchase them. Hollowborn hasn't been back since it left in January 2020, almost 3 years now.

• I agree with @Novyx that there should be $50 mini sets for just the armor or just the weapon/shield. Especially for abyssal; the weapon/shield of that set are both amazing for hybrids, even if the armor competes with necro.

• I understand there's some mathematical balance issues to be worked out, and that they have been reported directly to staff. So, potential purchasers may wish to wait a few days until those issues are worked out and we see a finalized version of this set. I haven't verified these myself, but Jeanne on discord listed the following issues:

1) Hekate's Insight gets an x1.075 boost for being a trigger effect. Player-controlled triggers usually get a 1.5x boost.
2) Hekate's Grasp lets your pet + guest apply a Fire Siphon Poison. It's a Fire armor, so any effect that scales off monster Fire resist should get EleComp.
3) Hekate's Command pays 60% Melee for guest Celerity. Since guests have an upkeep that you'll have to pay on top of the Celerity given, you should be paying the additional value you're getting from the guest on top of its upkeep. That means this should
cost 60%-22.125%=37.875% Melee SP.
4) Hekate's Will pays 10% Melee for +8.5 BtH. However, since this is an efficient skill, +8.5 BtH should cost 8.5/0.85x1.25=12.5% Melee.
5) Hekate's Might is missing a /1.19 for its EleVuln calculation.

I also understand there is an issue with the infernal FSB not boosting the siphon healing, and myself and another player noticed that the Infernal armor sometimes locks your guest from attacking. So, purchasers should be aware that some or all of these issues may be addressed, along with potential further changes I'm unaware of.


< Message edited by GwenMay -- 11/23/2022 21:04:47 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 18
11/23/2022 22:24:26   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 Kam found the typos causing the guest issues with Infernal Champion, and is currently tackling the potion issues. Other issues are also in his sights.
Post #: 19
11/23/2022 23:13:41   
Bolter
Member

Well yea, $50 package with only the armaments and shield as well as only the armor would also be nice in this case.
AQ  Post #: 20
11/23/2022 23:17:23   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 Update:

#1 on the above list isn't a bug. Via Kam:

quote:

Triggers are usually x1.1, player-controlled triggers are x1.075, which is what Insight's using. Things like "If using an axe, deal bonus damage" would be x1.075 or +7.5% damage.


The rest of the list has been fixed!
Post #: 21
11/24/2022 0:26:03   
Sapphire
Member

The FSB for the fire set , LK, you said was increased heal resistance? Angellic robes +12.5% ends up causing slightly increased SP regen. I see no increased SP regen with this, and so I was curious if it could be double checked?
Post #: 22
11/24/2022 1:31:28   
GwenMay
Member

@Lorekeeper

Good to know the issues were fixed! Thanks for the quick work Kam.

Happy Thanksgiving, folks!
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 23
11/25/2022 19:15:17   
Sapphire
Member

The fire set is good, but I think I could make an argument that the SP heavy nature of all of the effects takes a ton of luster off of it. That's likely just a personal opinion, but I like to play the game ensuring my SP can be readily available and the *only* way I'd ever use the set is with SP regen pets/guests and some other means, or the effects begin to become a challenge to justify using. It *can* be Loopy in that you can use EO to heal SP, thus eating HP, and hoping the healing counters the usage of EO and thus far it is a bit of a challenge since the total SP usage is so utterly heavy its simply less attractive than I'd have hoped.


I would have rather seen elecomp go into SP cost reduction. I would have rather seen lesser defense to pay for celerity, or split that with a lower SP. THEN, this stuff would be better.


The weapon by itself, though, in use with other armors and other things is very very good. Best item of the fire set, easily.
Post #: 24
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