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[Suggestion] Making Early Book 1 Progression Smoother or Easier

 
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1/19/2023 15:14:40   
bestonesofar
Member
 

Hello!

I'd like to request removing the level requirement (10) of Sepulchure's Flying Fortress. If following the Timeline closely, the player is level 6 when they reach this quest and is faced with this jarring obstacle. The quest's Timeline node has a small hint directing the player to sequence break and continue with the Dragon Egg Saga, but the Saga has references to the skipped quest. There is precedent for removing the level requirement of an early Book 1 quest- The Black Dragon Box. Its old requirement of level 3 is mentioned in the Timeline, unlike any other entry.


My alternative suggestion is to change the Timeline's text in order to direct the player toward useful, class-specific weapons, instead of changing old quest code or introducing new nodes in the Timeline to fill the level gap. My goal here is to make early Book 1 easier. This is my general idea of the difficulty of Book 1 bosses:
Early: difficult or tedious with base classes
Mid: sub-optimal plays with sub-optimal classes end fights quickly
Late: good classes win quickly, bad classes still win
End (Doctor When): some combination of good plays, good classes, good weapons, luck, and pets/guests needed to win

In early Book 1 specifically, the following bosses seem unusually difficult without using good weapons/pets/guests:
Dragonmaster Frostscythe and Glaisaurus fire -50
Bassault water -100, ice -100
Doomkitten water -200
Gorgok fire -20 energy -20
Pro Pain and RotGut darkness -40, fire -50 | light -25
Lord Frydae XIII silver -50, light -20
HuffPuff and Wind Defender stone -30
Splashy energy -30, fire -30
Warlic
Xan water -50, ice -50
Somean Lion water -50, ice -50
Tauros

I think the solution is not to nerf or change these bosses, but to clearly communicate to the player the location of already existing suitable weapons hidden behind side stories. These are some examples of how I would do so. My added wording (@@@xyz@@@) doesn't flow well and can be improved.

Timeline Oaklore Keep: "...But Captain Rolith seems a bit preoccupied... so it's time to help out around Oaklore Keep until he'll pay attention to you! @@@Speak to Sir Vivor and Sir Casm and navigate through deadly lightning to look for Sir Jing's energy weapons.@@@ (Also known as, get level 3!)"

Hydra Boss Completed Objective and/or victory screen: "...Be sure to set your hometown to Falconreach @@@ and check out the Player Suggestion Shop @@@ by talking to Serenity, in the inn!"

Timeline Ice Dragon Invasion: "...This time, by an army of ice dragons. At their head, a mysterious foe appears who seems to be searching for something... specific. @@@ Ash can introduce you to Dragonsfall (hopefully small) while you search for a weapon that can confront this foe. @@@"

Timeline Wrath of Xan: "This time, it seems a Pyromancer is attacking Falconreach with the intent of burning it to the ground! It's up to you to stop him and his army... if you can! @@@ Visit Guardian Myra in Falconreach Guardian Tower or Keelia in Aeris Battlespire to pick up a weapon to douse these flames. @@@"

Timeline Breakfast with Warlic: "...Twilly suggests you consult the Blue Mage, Warlic, who lives far to the north-east of Falconreach. Maybe he can help you figure out which egg is your dragon egg! @@@ Concurrently, you can read Warlic's letter by visiting Ash and follow up with Warlic to unlock access to brilliant light weapons. @@@"


Bonus suggestion: Yulgar's Forge has nifty low level weapons, and it is technically unlocked with Falconreach. However, it is chronologically unlocked in the Fire Orb quest line, when the forge weapons have lost value. Hopefully the forge can be unlocked earlier with a simple solution.

< Message edited by bestonesofar -- 1/20/2023 13:06:48 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
1/19/2023 19:57:34   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

While the level locks argument have room for feasibility, please make a bit more comprehensive definition of "hard" boss, because I can clearly remember that all those bosses you've listed can be killed solo with a base class with the mind of a casual when I was an NDA player (which is to sayyears, so I know how it feels to fight with, as Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel said, "one hand tied behind my back"). To add further, those were pre-Cloak Scrap days. On the worst-case scenario, those felt no different to how a Doomknight would be in the Inn even when armed with BiS gear.

One thing that I do have animosity towards is the blatant spoonfeeding that would be caused by your "guide to weapons" proposal, regardless of how implicit the hints may be. This is an adventure game with a respawn function. If it were something like SAO, I will understand the necessity of such hints. Otherwise, grow a drive for self-cultivation and curiosity, and enjoy the process even if you get KO'd just as many times as Subaru Natsuki dies. Eventually, a player should be able to get the hint that class trainers in Book 1 sans Tomix provide equipment. Perhaps the only hinting I'll accept is guiding the player to train classes and make trainers actually describe how their class works just like how Sir Malifact and Capt. Rhubarb do. Ask me any class that had already been reimagined to fight any of the non-When bosses you listed, I'll tell you. It'll be just as hilarious as when Chazz Princeton (that's Jun Manjoume for non-dub YGO players) defeated his brother when he was handicapped with a weak monster deck.

Other than what I already said, I'll leave the rest of your suggestions open for others to critique.
DF AQW  Post #: 2
1/20/2023 11:00:07   
Baron Dante
Member

Removing the level requirement is definitely something that should be looked into, as it's kind of arbitrarily blocking progression here.

As far as the early game bosses go, which definitely do largely run on elemental rock-paper-scissors, so to say.
Especially DoomKitten, who's kind of meant to be this big Water weapon check.
Intended or not, I like the touch where you can get a Water weapon from the optional set of quests referencing Zelda, and you should kind of naturally run into the quest on your way there. Maybe make the three weapons there a free shop, and keep the Ocarina of Thyme as a drop?

Rather than sending the player on a goose chase to find relevant weapons, Yulgar's Forge could honestly be used as a simple way to fix the weapon availability too. The main issue with the open-ended nature of Book 1 is that the timeline exists for a reason, so the player knows what they're meant to do and when, and if they veer off too far from that, they might just encounter later main story bits anyways. In that sense, the timeline does actually go against the exploratory parts of Book 1 actually.

quote:

To add further, those were pre-Cloak Scrap days.

I'm not sure why you're putting any kind of relevance to a Book 3 item in a thread related to making Book 1 more playable.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
1/20/2023 12:30:43   
bestonesofar
Member
 

I should clarify that I would like early Book 1 to be easier, and nowhere else. I think this would constitute the first 14 levels or 3 hours of gameplay. In comparison, I understand that early book 3 is potentially improved every month with reimagined updates, while Books 1 and 2 are largely left alone.

If the player is not spoonfed strong, class-specific weapons, the following issues remain in the early levels:

1. Main quests drop no guaranteed usable weapons after Forgotten Spear. For example, It's a Dirty Job can drop really nice weapons that beat all the early bosses; but the drop table is shared with 30 other weapons that may be for another base class, much higher level, or have horribly unstable range. I would not like to start farming against 3 Boulder Elementals an hour into playing because my first attempt dropped a nice weapon that I can't use. In contrast, The Pure Pool has a much nicer drop table, with about a 1/10 chance of getting a usable water weapon before facing Xan. Even here, I don't think a player should be spamming a quest 10+ times so early in the game. My suggestion indicates spamming Guardian Arena 3 times or Dragonsfall (small) 3+ times with an option to buy another fire weapon for 500 gold, which I think is acceptable.

2. Shop weapons are expensive and not worth the price. Around level 10, NDA players have spent most of their gold on stat training, and DA players won't be able to buy much without farming. The prices were fine 15+ years ago, but now it is faster and normal to level up and run into relatively tough bosses with a low level weapon. Player Suggestion Shop weapons are also expensive, but I think they are strong options in these levels and can stay useful for longer than low level weapons from Yulgar, The Inn Shop, or Lugosi. The alternative to paying up is, as usual, sifting through large drop tables.

3. With the Timeline around, there is less reason to do quests not on it, even if it suggests to do so. Without outside sources, there's no good way to know which side quests offer useful drops. This is fine when adventuring and frustrating when looking for specific drops. These outside sources, such as Best Weapons For Your Level And Class or the DF Calculator are not readily available or easily visible to the player.

4. Without good weapons, base classes are not good at soloing bosses. Let's examine Bassault without a water or ice weapon, which the player fights four or five times.
Warrior: stun wore off, shield wore off, 3 turns of Bassault's attack under Strength Strike within (2/5) shield uptime is enough for potion range, if Bassault is not dead after after the next two shields, player is dead
Mage: can't use fireball, ice strike and mage fury are weak, dealing about 200% weapon damage per turn while Bassault sometimes breaks through -50 bonus and finishes the job after second blind is over
Rogue: high chance to stun, but then Bassault sometimes hits through 45 mpm and -50 bonus, player is trying to stall with less than 200% weapon damage output and relying on luck

5. Early Book 1 difficulty is appropriate 15+ years ago, when it was midgame for the whole game. It seems strange now to maintain this difficulty, then make things easier later with story classes, more and better weapon drops, pets/guests, and slowly increase difficulty afterwards. I think players should get frustrated with and learn from difficulty later in the game or at the Inn, not in the first few hours of playing.

6. These levels are already easy, with sequence breaking. Options such as Doom/Destiny weapons, farming gold for Pirate/Ninja, skipping to Paladin/Ranger/DragonSlayer/any other class behind longer quests, grabbing Ultra OmniKnight Blade from Book 3 or resist gear anywhere, getting +bonus gear so that attack chains aren't ruined at the worst time, farming best weapons for level per element, etc would stomp through bosses. I would like early game to be easier than it is now without sequence breaking.

< Message edited by bestonesofar -- 1/20/2023 13:11:11 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 4
1/20/2023 16:17:47   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

@Baron Dante, I need not explain why I placed Cloak Scrap here as OP actually got the point.

At this point, I gotta ask, why so strongly advocating to using stuns on bosses of all things? If you can't even beat story bosses in Book 1 without such power, then come Book 3 where story bosses with 300 ImmoRes exist, well, just think of the "But I'm nothing without the suit" meme.

Second, I ain't as blasé as you think. When I said I was casual, I did do your blacksmithing that you're giving too much credit on (by too much credit, answer this: did the stat templates on the items in Sir Jing, Sir Koffagus, and Treefort change when those Oaklore quests were reimagined?). Heck, I even went off progression a bit to actually level up some to stay at Hunter's Paradise because I thought back then that the merge items there were good before I replaced them with Deathknight hardware, and because Nautiloids are an acceptable diffuser to Voltabolt while I had no clearance for Potion Mastery. And then what? Managed to clobber bosses without the aid of weakness exploitation. And yes, I'm a Mage base when I synchronize my nature as a person with my playing (with a bit of a Rogue's traits considering my gravitation to Piracy and Necromancy), the very Base Class that is susceptible to resistance crap. Did those with the other BCs just for fun, same result. And if I was cornered on the solos, and I'll take a page out of the Dragon Egg arc for ya here to make things clear, Robina and Valencia more than served up to the task. Those Hunter's Paradise gear, I even used them when I finally had my hands on story classes. Still the same old oddball set of gear, still able to conquer the world with them with more advance skillsets.

And next up, you're too religious to linear progression (fine, I'll keep playing your game of staying in Book 1, but it won't stop me from making case analyses using Book 3 sources) and getting tunnel visioned by the Timeline which will result in a wonky speedrun and ruin any attempts to discover secondary content (and before you try to insist, even AstralCodex shared concerns when bottom-tier BiS gear were popping up a little too often during the Sulen'Eska reimaginings) which results in a narrower view of the game world that was built. And that's why I advocate a sense for adventure despite the daunting quantity of DF content. Research. Do some YouTube; or ask here, in the community Reddit, or Discord. It's not like storylines that occur spontaneously is isolated in the convolution that is the current Book 1. Take a case on Book 3. How the heck did we caught wind that some cult was gathering items for summoning a sinister entity? It practically just... happened. How about Tomix Book 3? Same case, spontaneous. As it currently stands, the Timeline is just a guide where you are in the chronology. Otherwise, if we were to follow your ideal, I should be teleporting to Swordhaven Castle's throne room once I'm cleared for the Convergence arc instead of the castle gates (then again, look at the reactions of the people in the throne room apart from our hero when the Golden Hand teleported there).

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 1/20/2023 16:40:07 >
DF AQW  Post #: 5
1/20/2023 17:51:41   
bestonesofar
Member
 

quote:

Maybe make the three weapons there a free shop

I'm probably wrong, but I think new DA players can breeze through early levels with Dimensional Transphaser or strong DC weapons and would not need easier access to Gananana's DA only weapons. By design, DC shops are noticeable and offer good weapons with great resale value compared to gold shops. I know if I had no reason to save DCs or invest in the game long-term, I'd buy my way through any wall I run into. In any case, I would be fine if Gananana's reward variance was removed in the form of a shop. In contrast, NDA players facing DoomKitten are going to be looking to get lucky on several large drop table quests if they don't come across Myra or Keelia.

I realize my suggestion about weapons looks like an effort to improve the NDA experience, a group the game is not designed for. It makes sense to not implement it and ask new players to get DA, turn on Adventure Mode, and enjoy the full game instead of requesting dev time to help trial players through a handicapped experience.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 6
1/20/2023 19:09:11   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

The Dimensional Transphaser armor is within NDAs hands. You just have to do the Daily Quest in the Book of Lore 4 times (2 if done during June, DF's anniversary month, so long as the DC bonus for the quest has been activated for said month). During which time you can filler in with Voltabolt/Nautiloid to get your gold reserves up.
DF AQW  Post #: 7
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