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Battles these days, what has changed? My Theory

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1/4/2012 5:22:39   
Remorse
Member

The main reason I think battles these days have changed is because of a rise of what I call power builds.

Here is the confusing part, Power Builds can be almost Any build But it is mainly the strategy that makes them a power build.

What do I mean?

I will use an example of how my focus Build hase changed,
Around last year My focus build was more revolved around strategy, when to sheild emp etc.
This part has not changed excpet for the fact that all sucsesful builds these days have a strategy in them to make a quick kill.
Now I find my self having to smoke, get it quick powerful attacks while minimising the strategy side because the power Builds these days simply dont allow to sacrifise my truns to EMP or even sheild as much.

The problem:
Often when these power Builds start their is not much you can do to save yourself except hope for a little bit of luck.
This means LUCK because increasingly bad in battles these days the cause NOT the luck rates rather the need for turns to be sucsesful. What do I mean? I mean Blocks for example are far more game changing because when needing to kill these power build you must resort to power aswell and kill them before they kill you, any lapse of power from things such as blocks will now DRAMATICALLY lower your chances of winning.

Anther problem is as I stated, stratgy is forced aside simply because it is no longer effective way of countering these builds. The best way to counter a Power build is to be powerful yourslef hence why many new interesting builds have risen such as SC mages and Max Mascre CH and BHs.


The cause:
I blame the rising of power builds/strategies on enahcements, the extra stats given to builds have allowed builds to become so powerful the very counter designed to beat them fail and your only hope if to kill them before they kill you... Sound familiar?
Also this was staring to become a problem much before TLMs were made so I dont blame this entierly on them although they are a master at power builds.
Many occurences of Power build were rising before this such as Support Mercs with extreme support, then their was the STR BH's with hard to counter STR builds still a problem now and of corse the famous two hit kill STR mercs with their mighty start STUN ZERK combo.

Solutions:
All Hope is not lost, Thier is many ways to bring back the old ways similar to lower levels fights or fights during the beta time period.
But the solutions should be based on a theory and that is to create sucseful counters to deafeat power Buolds in all its shapes and sizes, while adding more variety and not completely destrying these builds.
One quick Idea of the top of my head is a robot which has a special to cast a shield to reduce all incoming dmagae by 50% for two turns and draining a small porportion of rage.
How will something like this work, It will create counters that as specifically desgned to beat this style of build without needing to resort to quick killing or luck yourself.

Your Opinion,

What do you guys think of battles these days, Do you agree with my theory, do you have your own?
Or do you think my way to solve this issue is all wrong.
I value your opinion thanks.

Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/4/2012 6:09:22 >
Epic  Post #: 1
1/4/2012 5:57:03   
supermasivo
Member

Agreed with u but not in only one thing... about the robot: I dont see this improvement would be a solution, in fact i think this would make more OP to tanker builds + plus 50% def and rage drain? more unballance :S
And who am i talking about MEGA tankers? TLMs ofc... thats the root of all problems.

Robertoco-.
Epic  Post #: 2
1/4/2012 6:03:56   
Remorse
Member

This is not a discussion about the obvious( TLMs having oped tank builds)

Try to picture this solution after the upcoming updates which will hopfully fix this tank class.

Also I realise this could be a problem for tankers, but dont forget they use their robot for powerful attacks and would not be able to is they are using this sheild.

Plus dont forget it could be just as useful versing tanker being able to reduce their powerful robot attcks and surgical aftter their technician would be very useful.

But like I said Its obvious that TLMs need to be changed so dont incorparte the fact that new posibilaties wont help or worsen the already oped when hopefully they are on their way to being fixed.


Plus this robot idea is just a quick example open for adjustment, The point is the theory of the soltuion is to make counters for these builds/strategy and thats is what I was trying to demanstarte with my example.

Plus belive it or not I am getting sick of incorporating how Oped TLMs are in all my posts Im sure its getting old so I am leaving the obvious out.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/4/2012 6:10:31 >
Epic  Post #: 3
1/5/2012 23:21:35   
Laces
Member

Most CH builds require strategy. Especially the 1v1 Multi builds. My battles against TLMs don't last a couple of turns. If I actually feeling like trying, It'll take some 10-15 turns before either I win or they do. However, I agree that there have been many builds that in an effort, attempt to do loads of damage in quick turns and this in turn is a result of TLMs. As strength TLMs can finish you within several turns and since they're quite common, in order to win, one has to create such a build that you do lots of damage in quick amounts before they finish you.

Enhancements are part of the problem, but the main problem is facing a high percentage of the ED community who is a TLM with a typical strength build. In a sense, if it was a full varium vs a full varium, enhancements are pointless as both of you have fully enhanced all your weapons. In a non varium vs non varium, it relies much more on skill as neither has enhancements, and few non-variums have the credits to class change.

This problem is built on the arrival of TLMs if you see what I mean. The rise of power builds is based on outdamaging TLMs quickly as your defenses can't hold them off for very long.
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/6/2012 0:37:23   
endtime
Member

The reason these "power builds" have shown up is due to enhancements. Prior to enhancements, specifically during the Beta times, top-notch varium players only had around forty to fifty bonus points. This made it difficult to be extreme in certain areas because it often resulted in gaping holes in other crucial areas. For example, before, a strength BH could not have around 100 strength since this would result in low dexterity and HP, and thus blocks and quick losses. However, since top varium players can now have 100+ bonus points, they are able to have extreme stats without glaring weaknesses. For example, a modern strength BH can have 125 HP, high dex, and high strength. This has resulted in a surge of builds with unreasonable amounts of defense or quick-kill potential.

A possible solution would be to alter percentage-based attacks such as double strike, berzerker, bludgeon, and massacre into constant-based attacks because percentage skills no doubt foster the abuse of strength. Then, to mitigate defense abuse, rage should be not be able to fail, i.e. can't be blocked/deflected, and technology and dexterity should increase at the same rate as strength/support. Also, skills improving with certain stats also promote stat abuse and decrease the importance of the energy stat. If every skill is scaled only by level, then strategy rather than surprise kills or annoying levels of defense may take a front seat.

< Message edited by endtime -- 1/6/2012 0:40:26 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
1/6/2012 0:39:48   
PD
Member
 

 ^^ You need to remember that stat intervals were much lower and less far apart, and that people still had room for rediculous stat builds (Xendran's HLTM Build and Lightmare's Support BH). Don't forget Beta Support Mercs too. The percentage based skills were changed so it's no longer part of adjusted damage but rather out of fixed base so it doesn't favor tanking nor powerhulking, but rather is even across the spectrum.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/6/2012 0:40:23 >
Post #: 6
1/6/2012 0:45:49   
endtime
Member

^
As I said those extreme builds had crucial problems due to missing points in crucial stats. For example, the HP build had no defenses/support, so it would get destroyed by BHs who thrived on the bloodlust potential. Meanwhile, the support merc was flat-out awful because one EMP/Atom Smash would result in their loss. Also, I have never seen an effective support BH. Since BHs need constant damage to constantly gain HP, hitting only 3 damage for 3 turns while waiting for the auxiliary would result in losses. However, now, you can have 21-26+ support while still being 5 focus or strength players can have the dex, strength, HP combo.

< Message edited by endtime -- 1/6/2012 0:47:44 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
1/6/2012 0:52:39   
PD
Member
 

 Lightmare's build had high support allowing him to also have high defense and regenerate EP as well. Also, rage was much better back then. It builds up quickly with high support.

Xendran's build had large heal and a powerful Defense Matrix which covered up defense.

And most people weren't smart enough to know how to effectively counter a support merc.

Maybe in your mind these builds were easy to counter, but most of ED's community didn't know how. You can't play recentism with these old builds because everything from stat interval to build skill context/strength was much different back then. Back then there was no heal stat req and could be healed every 3 turns. Back then the stats grew much faster. Back then skills were much more powerful.

< Message edited by PD -- 1/6/2012 0:55:13 >
Post #: 8
1/6/2012 0:53:34   
Hiddenblade
Member

my solution:

Add more stats to weapon BUT lower enhancements. Lets say frostbane: 8 dex/tech/supp Lets say we added +4 str so now the stats are:

+4str +8 dex/tech/supp and only 6 enhancement slots.

If we continue to do it this way we could be able to do it so their will be no more enhancements. This way people wont need a refund for varium BUT weapon we already have frost destroyer etc will have to have enhancment slots and 10 slots because people would want a refund.

Overall More stats but unmovable stats. Less to none enhancement slots will be on weapons for more stats back to the way it was
Post #: 9
1/6/2012 1:15:04   
endtime
Member

@PD
What I'm trying to say is that before it was impossible to have a crazy amount of certain stats while still having no weaknesses. For example, I had the best possible gear: Bunnyzooka, Azrael/Frostbane, and Imperial ACP during that time, but despite this, I couldn't have the 28-34 def 24-29 Res, 21-26 Str Dmg, and 125 HP that I had with my previous strength build now.

Before I could have had 21-26 auxiliary damage, but this meant I had low dex and tech or, in the case of high HP builds, then I would have low dex/tech /supp, which results in a weak DM--plus smart BHs don't smoke right away; instead they wait until you DM and then they smoke, so when the DM is down, the massacre for very high damage. We had to make more balanced builds before because we didn't have enough stats and we didn't have enhancements to freely put stats anywhere we wanted.

< Message edited by endtime -- 1/6/2012 1:20:48 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
1/7/2012 2:04:18   
Remorse
Member

Allot of great theroies guys,

I think the DEVs should realise that its no coeincedence that most if not all theories point towards enhacments being the cuase.
Epic  Post #: 11
1/7/2012 3:47:54   
xxmirxx
Member
 

 To be honest I feel its all about coming up with good built my opinion is too find built that can take both on quick kills and focus builts TLM are good Im not sure with mages.

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AQ Epic  Post #: 12
1/14/2012 15:54:16   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 OK ... not sure where this can go ... maybe under "wth is wrong with the bots"

I kept track of the last 10 gamma bot hits in my 5 FOCUS build...

Block, normal hit, Block, normal hit, Block, Block, Crit, Normal hit, Block, normal hit

My dex and support are both avg... the opponents who blocked varied, with no rhyme or reason
for the block. Only one block was against 100+ support or dex. Seriously 50% BLOCKS? and
any string of atks over the last months could result in a similar ratio.

What good is a 5 focus build if the bot won't hit? Don't need a crit...JUST CONTACT

Has the hit ratio changed throughout these endless "fixer-upper" updates??? Does 5 focus
penalize you for balancing your build?

Over the last several months, there can be no logical block explaination based on the
opponents stats...it's all over the board. Unless it's my stats.

Any suggestions? I am really sick of this bot...
Post #: 13
1/14/2012 19:29:32   
BaIllz
Member
 

 Well, at least back in beta, when you had the insane hp techs, high support mercs, and support/str bhs, you still had 3 classes. Now its a

uniclass. Where everyone is the 1 OP class. It just keeps changing everyweek too, due to balance changes every week that nerf the class

they just buffed the previous week. So if they have never nerfed one of those old classes/builds that I stated above, at least we'd still have

people playing all of the classes. Seriosuly, who is an active competitve varium player that still plays mercenary?

~ BaIllz
Post #: 14
1/15/2012 0:56:46   
Remorse
Member

^ They are focusing on making mercenaries better,

So much so that stating they need a buff is useless however mentioning possible sugestions is proberly a much better idea.
Epic  Post #: 15
1/15/2012 18:25:45   
Nub Apocalypse
Member

^^ Lol well i'm planning to class change back to Mercenary today, and trust me, Merc isn't as weak as you think, i'll keep this short otherwise it'll go off-topic, but with high str and max zerk, people don't even want to waste turns in stealing your energy or boosting because they know it's useless. Furthermore, a high str build with maz zerk on rage can easily hit 70s even on tank builds, keeping in mind tank builds usually have around 90 health, this is some serious damage, and can catch almost anyone off guard, mainly because they get cocky and look down on how mercs are supposedly "underpowered" currently.

Edit: And for the record, two currently active competitive mercs are Barney and Illu.

< Message edited by Nub Apocalypse -- 1/15/2012 18:29:16 >
Post #: 16
1/16/2012 5:36:20   
Remorse
Member

^
So a power abusive build works....

The class as well as blood mages should be given the chance to make sucseful builds which dont go all out on extreme power usally winning if they are lucky enough to start.
Epic  Post #: 17
1/16/2012 17:05:03   
Aere
Member
 

 PD, the support BH doesn't have Defense Matrix. It's a BH.

Reflex Boost was so crucial back then because it increased block as well as physical defense, removing the threat of strength BH's entirely. Well, if they had energy claws there was a problem, but that's not the point.

Thing is, builds back then relied on specific stat and skill placement. We couldn't spam up to 100 support because then we'd be ko'd by the typical strength BH with Perforators before we could heal again, for example. The introduction of so many stat points nowadays allow people to simply overrun any strategic build, because the only thing important in a battle is how much damage you deal. If you hit higher than your opponent, you'll kill him faster. Every turn they spend healing, your rage gets higher.

AQW Epic  Post #: 18
1/16/2012 23:13:28   
Remorse
Member

^ Your are exactly right.

It is also why their are alot of tanks.

Tanks can beat these builds but only some of the time.


The core problem is that power builds have ruined varity.

Something needs to be changed to counter them or take their power away (romved to bonus stats from enhacments)

Otherwise battles will never before no will they be fully enjoyable as they once were.
Epic  Post #: 19
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