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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX

 
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6/10/2012 9:58:03   
Fay Beeee
Member

I see you have a new Avatar Midnight santa. Very nice.
So question for you about your comment.

quote:

midnight santa
Member


der is no balance because class > varium > stats abuse > skill dats it sumary. lol


What are your solutions?



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Epic  Post #: 126
6/10/2012 10:21:36   
Ranloth
Banned


Titan is a coder, not a Balance Team member. And this thread is for discussion for feedback on balance not trolling, so it's our job too.
Every game is a business, main aim is profit so it's not like you've discovered America.

PS. Game is owned by AE. ED has fixed wages at all times, it's Artix getting more money in the end.
AQ Epic  Post #: 127
6/10/2012 10:25:39   
King Helios
Member

Plasma Rain for BMs!

With Reflex Boost, I have 156 Dex. Multi, at Level 8, has 71 damage.

One of my 2v2 opponents has 27-33 +5 +1 Resistance. I use Reflex Boost, then multi.

71*.85 = 60.35 (60).

60 - (27 +5 +1) = 27

60 - (33 +5 +1) = 21.

I should expect it to do 21-27 damage. Maybe I did the formula wrong, but I did 31.

?!?.

It's powerful enough IMO.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 128
6/10/2012 10:42:10   
Ranloth
Banned


I'm not employed at AE but what I said is basics of every business..
No profit means no business hence aim is always profit. Customers are needed for profit and feedback on how to improve which is needed here for balance. Business is divided into parts such as ED (Coders, Writers, Artists, HR, etc.) to get most out of their job.
And since AE and ED merged, Titan and MW get the money but fixed wages set by AE, not whatever they make from Varium since they have to account for taxes and servers obviously.

This is basics of every business, if you think I'm making it up then feel free to do so but why should I teach something to someone if they don't understand half of words anyway, just prefer to troll.
AQ Epic  Post #: 129
6/10/2012 11:05:17   
Mr.Blank
Member
 

Do not feed the troll. Ignore him, this is going way out of topic Trans. Besides, isn't it against rules to talk about money?
Epic  Post #: 130
6/10/2012 11:06:27   
ansh0
Member

quote:

I just came up with this skill called Breach.

This is a new skill for Bounty Hunters, replacing Shadow Arts.

This is how it works :

It gives you a passive armor which gives defense/resistance based on the first damaging attack you do to your opponent, i.e strike, gun, aux, bot etc.

Breach

Gives you a passive armor based on how much damage you do to your opponent on your 1st turn

Level 1- 1% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 2- 3% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 3- 5% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 4- 7% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 5- 9% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 6- 11% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 7- 12% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 8- 13% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 9- 14% of damage taken by opponent on first turn
Level 10- 15% of damage taken by opponent on first turn

Example

You do 25 points of energy damage on your first turn with a MAX Breach.

25*.15=4 rounded up

You get +4 resistance for the rest of the match.
Epic  Post #: 131
6/10/2012 11:10:52   
Ranloth
Banned


Ansh, I replied to your suggestions too. Great idea. ;)

@Mr.Blank
It is, but he went offtopic and I explained to him how business works but seems like he's too young to understand basics so I'll leave it until he goes to school. :P

< Message edited by Trans -- 6/10/2012 11:12:34 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 132
6/10/2012 11:16:16   
Mr.Blank
Member
 

@Trans
Either that or he's giggling at home while typing these errors on purpose. But let's drop this mocking already.
Epic  Post #: 133
6/10/2012 11:19:28   
Ranloth
Banned


Yeah let's talk about.. balance! XD There was point in time where classes were balanced but everything changed after Fire Nation's attacked.
AQ Epic  Post #: 134
6/10/2012 11:25:20   
Practel
Spectating from the Sidelines


I've been watching this thread escalate for the past few minutes, so I'm putting a stop to it now.

There will be NO talk on the topic of money and or revenue, along with that if any user posts "i hate dis game balance suks fix titan y u no fix??" it will be deleted. This does NOT contribute to a good balance discussion, and is a waste of everyone's time.

If you want to actually contribute in this thread, post examples or changes you would make, or agree or support other peoples suggestions.

Any more discussion on money, revenue, and posting random uselessness in the thread is not allowed.

~Practel

< Message edited by Practel -- 6/10/2012 11:28:17 >
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 135
6/10/2012 13:05:23   
rayniedays56
Member



Are they planning another nerf to Cybers while the Strength Bloodmages and Caster Techmages are still roaming free? I hope they aren't. Cybers have been touched enough, ever since the Plasma Armour "nerf", as I see it.



Edited since the issue has been resolved :P

< Message edited by rayniedays56 -- 6/10/2012 17:26:51 >


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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 136
6/10/2012 13:25:42   
Ranloth
Banned


@raynie
He's banned anyway so the trouble is gone. :P

Also Str BMs aren't that much of an issue really anymore, Bludgeon + Fireball use Physical so you can deal with that easily, only change I'd give them is re-scaling DA which khalidion has also mentioned and I did give my suggestion of new scaling (on page 2, link to Google Docs) which should deal with them. And passive revamp will also touch BL which will probably be weaker in power thus nerf not being needed until then. (BL and Reroute will be kinda tweaked).
Caster TMs, whilst being one myself, are quite strong and even without Beta equipment. I'd just change few requirements (giving Str to Bolt is not a good one as lower Levels would be suffering because of this), such as Support for Reroute and Str for SC as opposed to Tech and Dex now which isn't really a problem for Casters. DA change would also touch them so that'd be best choice to do rather than nerf skills. Additional change could be raising Bolt's cost to 33 EP at Lvl 10 to match one of Fireball's to keep it fair - shouldn't be a problem since TMs have Reroute anyway.
AQ Epic  Post #: 137
6/10/2012 14:29:32   
Hun Kingq
Member

Before messing with any skills any more it is the players with weapons without requirements that are giving above normal damage to the battle tracker or with players that have two pieces of gear without requirements that has 10 enhancement slots with the primary having low requirements 10 enhancement slots and an Armor with 10 enhancement slots. Because of this above normal damage the rest of the community gets punished with nerfs after nerfs.

a Level 34 tech mage with level 1 Plasma Bolt got 63 non critical damage
140
56
19 +10
24 +31
99 +70
17

defense 18-22 +5 -2
resistance 46-56 +5 -2

The only thing on a the Level 33 Blood Mage that was not Beta was his armor and the primary which was the Bionic battle gear staff he was able to have high dex and high tech while keeping at 94 health 66 energy easily creating a tank build. When a lower level player could have more points on stats because of no requirements/low requirements with all 10 enhancement gear than a higher level player it creates a huge lack of balance among the weapons as one set have no requirements while the rest has strict requirements.

So you want balance start with the weapons. Do not allow one group of players have the unfair advantage over the rest because it appears you are playing favorites.

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 6/10/2012 15:57:26 >
Epic  Post #: 138
6/10/2012 14:58:04   
Ranloth
Banned


I can see quite a lack in Dex (which is covered by high HP?) which makes it weak against Physical users but (don't take my word on it 100%), 88 damage from Plasma Bolt at Lvl 10 right? It is quite high if it can be done with normal equipment and hence why I think some requirements should be changed - Reroute has Tech; what does that do to Caster TM? Nothing. Also, Hun, was it max PB Heal build (so something along of high Heal, maxed PB, high/maxed Reroute, and possibly Malf?) since Dex is lacking there and you don't mention SC thus it could be high Heal instead.

Hence why I'm for Reroute having Support requirement - you'd see that guy having to put maybe 20 more stat points in Support, and to hurt Casters with SC then Str requirement for SC would do the job (meaning you need Str to use SC, Support for Reroute and decent Tech to empower them as well as good Dex to survive).

(wow, I'm agreeing with you.. xD)
AQ Epic  Post #: 139
6/10/2012 15:12:34   
ScarletReaper
Member

I'm all for putting support requirement on reroute and strength on sc. My 5 focus build would'nt have to change a thing! But would put a stop to caster builds with all tech.

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DF AQW Epic  Post #: 140
6/10/2012 16:19:47   
Hun Kingq
Member

Putting a Requirement on a skill will punish the many for the actions of the few I could guarantee that what happened with the multi. The ones that carry the weapons without requirements all 10 enhancement slots or one equipment with low requirements all 10 enhancement slots probably had dex higher then I could get with Reflex boost at max getting above normal damage with the Plasma Rain. Just imagine a Hunters multi shot with high dex not even bothering with reflex boost or malfunction and if the opposing team does not look at that players stats them next thing they know they lost the match. Just imagine a merc or tact merc equipping themselves with 10 enhancement slot gear with no requirements.

Yes, that player weakness is physical but if a Blood Mage decides to to do physical other than weapons he only has two physical skill attacks and then with low resistance the Blood Mage will most likely loose against this player.

So why punish the many for the actions of the few? Why keep rewarding players from the past with abusive battling tactics, pertaining to builds, when they the staff tells us they are trying to stop the abusive builds. To get the accurate data the seek to get the balance they desire deal with the weapons without requirements/not properly placed requirements/ requirements that are too low of the players that is causing the skills to be more powerful than they are. This needs to be done before they raise the level cap because at Level 35 that player will have tech without technician at 173, how many of you with the modern weapon could get tech at 173 without a boost?

< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 6/10/2012 16:24:43 >
Epic  Post #: 141
6/10/2012 16:21:40   
Stabilis
Member

I believe that 1 way for EpicDuel to control massive stats is to go right the base of the problem and treat it there; not just temporary but forever if possible. I am to suggest that a massive number of stat points in just 1 type of stat should be penalized. After all, spammed, abused, exploited stats are imbalanced therefore bad to not just the victims but to the partaker as well.

I schemed multiple penalties as to how the suggestions work, so I will name multiple:

Before the main suggestions, what would be sensible penalties for each stat type? For Strength, since damage is it's essence, would it's weakness be accuracy? For Dexterity, since it's essence is avoiding or reducing damage, would it's weakness be critical damage? For Technology, since it's essence is reducing and improving secondary aid (weapons), would it's weakness be critical damage or rage? For Support, since it's essence is damage and third-party aid, would it's weakness be defense?


  1. Instantaneous Penalties


      The layout of instantaneous penalties is quite simple really. There is only 1 penalty, at only 1 threshold. When are stats abused I do not know, but for a simulation let us imagine that exceeding n points of 1 stat type (including modifiers, enhancements, and base stats) is the threshold.

    • At n Strength, reduce user weapon accuracy by x%.
    • At n Dexterity, reduce user critical strike rate (which in turn increases the critical strike rate of opponents) by x%.
    • At n Technology, reduce user rage rate by x%.
    • At n Support, reduce user defences by x%.


    Example...

    Player A @ 125 Strength

    Threshold = 100

    Penalty = User weapon accuracy - 25%

  2. Intensive Penalties


      Intensive penalties add up over time, or in the case of stats, growing numbers of stat points. There are multiple magnitudes of 1 penalty, at multiple thresholds. Like instantaneous penalties, intensive penalty thresholds count modifiers, enhancements, and base stat points.

    • At q Strength... reduce user weapon accuracy by x%, at q + r Strength... reduce user weapon accuracy by x + y%, at q + r + s Strength... reduce user weapon accuracy by x + y + z%, etc...
    • At q Dexterity... reduce user critical strike rate by x%, at q + r Dexterity... reduce user critical strike rate by x + y%, at q + r + s Dexterity... reduce user critical strike rate by x + y + z%, etc...
    • At q Technology... reduce user rage rate by x%, at q + r Technology... reduce user rage rate by x + y%, at q + r + s Technology... reduce user rage rate by x + y + z%, etc...
    • At q Support... reduce user defences by x%, at q + r Support... reduce user defences by x + y%, at q + r + s Support... reduce user defences rate by x + y + z%, etc...

      Example...

      Player A @ 125 Strength

      Threshold = 100 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 (125)

      Penalty = User weapon accuracy - 10% - 5% - 5% - 5% - 5% - 5% (= accuracy - 35%... please note that their base damage is 26-32 before weapons)




That is all for now until I remember more lightbulbs, battle tracking would be greatly appreciated for specific values.



Suggestion of change to Agility:

Health is technically able to be considered related to Defense or Resistance. Health is an immediate form of damage absorption for all damage. Defense and Resistance are gradual forms of damage absorption for either physical or energy damage, respectively. Agility is a health penalty, and in turn reduces Defense and Resistance. This is inappropriate. To act justly in opposing a battle mechanic like health, it is strongly recommended to act in such a way that it's negative is more pronounced or something unrelated. The current Agility opposes D/R, and relatively speaking, allocating health points is counterproductive with Agility in effect since adding health points ultimately reduces the effect of health points. So it cancels out in the end and that is no good, really, mechanics like Agility become a reason to avoid health or potentially discover exploits. For example, I have successfully exploited Agility to increase my rage rate dramatically as well as improving my offence. If I only allocate Strength and Health with a Bloodlust class I take more damage (+ rage), my opponents hit less D/R (opponent - rage), I damage more and damage D/R more (+ rage and damage). Ultimately, the build abuses damage output severely and in our ED history was an imbalance (see Alpha Strength Bounty Hunters and Delta Strength Tactical Mercenaries). I hope that you all see what I mean and why Agility should be changed for it is a high priority balance issue.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 6/10/2012 16:57:41 >


_____________________________

AQ Epic  Post #: 142
6/10/2012 16:26:57   
Ranloth
Banned


Well to stop Casters, it's change of requirements on 2 skills - one being available past Lvl 10 and less effective than Bolt (at lower Level) and one being Reroute which is unlocked at Lvl 5 but you're looking at Bolt and Reroute which just need Tech. Seeing build you gave us, it has no Support and base Strength, see the point here? It's better than putting requirement on Bolt since Fireball of BMs would probably get slapped with it too. xD

With weapons it's kinda tough one. There will always be weapons with one stat missing from requirements so people just have to get the right ones.. One option is to set a certain level range where weapons would have all 4 requirements on weapons but a bit lower overall so you wouldn't see weapon with requirements: 35/34/42/0 but perhaps 32/32/35/32 (example) which would prevent abuse at higher level which are caused by enhancements. If you think about it and happen to find weapons with only 2 requirements (such as Dex and Tech - perfect for TMs) then after the change, you'd be looking at loss of at least 30 skill points to cover requirements.
But wouldn't that push us towards Focus builds more? Or have you got any other solution? Interesting point you raise here, especially when it comes to abuse..
AQ Epic  Post #: 143
6/10/2012 16:58:37   
Stabilis
Member

Developed further on penalties (discussing Agility with deeper insight):

quote:

Suggestion of change to Agility:

Health is technically able to be considered related to Defense or Resistance. Health is an immediate form of damage absorption for all damage. Defense and Resistance are gradual forms of damage absorption for either physical or energy damage, respectively. Agility is a health penalty, and in turn reduces Defense and Resistance. This is inappropriate. To act justly in opposing a battle mechanic like health, it is strongly recommended to act in such a way that it's negative is more pronounced or something unrelated. The current Agility opposes D/R, and relatively speaking, allocating health points is counterproductive with Agility in effect since adding health points ultimately reduces the effect of health points. So it cancels out in the end and that is no good, really, mechanics like Agility become a reason to avoid health or potentially discover exploits. For example, I have successfully exploited Agility to increase my rage rate dramatically as well as improving my offence. If I only allocate Strength and Health with a Bloodlust class I take more damage (+ rage), my opponents hit less D/R (opponent - rage), I damage more and damage D/R more (+ rage and damage). Ultimately, the build abuses damage output severely and in our ED history was an imbalance (see Alpha Strength Bounty Hunters and Delta Strength Tactical Mercenaries). I hope that you all see what I mean and why Agility should be changed for it is a high priority balance issue.
AQ Epic  Post #: 144
6/10/2012 18:47:20   
ScarletReaper
Member

I'd hate for everyone to be pushed into 5 focus builds though. I like to see variety in my battles. How boring would it be if every opponent you faced was a 5 focus build reguardless of class? I also tend to find that I am beaten far more often by strength bounty hunters and cyberhunters than I am by caster techmages. In fact, I find I win quite a bit against them.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 145
6/10/2012 18:49:39   
Guppy
Member

quote:

I like to see variety in my battles. How boring would it be if every opponent you faced was a 5 focus build reguardless of class?


Agreed. I'd get very bored, very quickly. Where's the fun in that? >w<
Post #: 146
6/10/2012 23:10:30   
King FrostLich
Member

Let me repeat this once again. Just remove agility then we can all be happy. Agreed anyone?
Epic  Post #: 147
6/10/2012 23:13:55   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
Agreed.

Anyone wanna make guns like ranged weapons in AQ? Where both strength and dexterity are needed?
And then make technology improve resistance more slowly, like dexterity does.

< Message edited by Mr. Black OP -- 6/10/2012 23:18:50 >
Epic  Post #: 148
6/11/2012 2:53:02   
Luna_moonraider
Member

@ above

why not str and support since most str build tend to ignore support or have just 32 or maybe lesser support.i think this was suggested in on of the balance threads idk which 1 but i clearly remember it was suggested


Back to topic.

Agility

yes agility is basically forcing people to have 94,95,109 and 110 hp we only have 4 ranges of hp where we do not get negative effects. the devs should either move the negative effects to a higher range say u have 125 and 124 hp and u still do not get any negative effects. or just put strong negative effects(-5 armor) to higher hp tier say above 140 hp and remove all positive effects(+1,+0 armor). in other words i think agility really needs to be reworked.

Heal

well as u all know all build can now heal with 33 heal(at lvl 34). it seem unfair as it makes it too easy to use and spam heal. heal should also be re-worked. heal should be made to improve with support but the progression should be slower say 12 sup for 1 heal point. it would make support useful. heal base heal should also be re-worked reducing the base heal at higher lvl and increasing the base heal at lower lvl. low lvls only heal like 10 hp for 17 energy that is totally useless and no 1 would use heal at low lvls as they find it useless. we do not want to breed a community of low lvls which thinks that heal is useless and is a noob move/skill. so for havens sake buff heals at lower lvls so that low lvls can at least use a decent heal.

focus

should there be a higher tier of focus or say +6 focus well i dont really know but if the lvl cap keeps increasing and we get more and more stat the devs should consider +6 focus but till than i do not hope to see +6 focus as i hate focus build and basically with all the nerf hear and there most classes are forced to use focus builds. should they remove focus well i think they should but if so bots would be significantly weak and they would need to rework the bots if focus is removed.




< Message edited by Luna_moonraider -- 6/11/2012 2:54:26 >


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AQW Epic  Post #: 149
6/11/2012 3:35:19   
ReconnaisX
Member

Yup, do something about agility. I can't venture out past 124 Health or else I'm doomed.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 150
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