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Improving existing cores

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2/10/2014 16:10:26   
Ranloth
Banned


 I wanna cover all underpowered cores, or ones that could use a small buff. Rare cores are included, because these can be buffed (and nerfed) if deemed necessary.

Primary Weapon Cores:

  • Frost Shards / FrostBite
    • 3 turns of Energy DoT
    • 10% of opponent's total Energy per turn
    • Decimals rounded to the nearest whole number
    • Damage remains the same

  • Energy Storm
    • Targets opponent's Energy only, without dealing any damage
    • 50% of Primary's damage only
    • Lower the Energy cost by -20 Energy - to match Energy Shot if one enemy (70 EP) - and 10 if used on two.

  • Hatchling Rush
    • Reduce the effectiveness to 30-33%
    • Everything else remains the same


    Gun Cores:

  • Energy Shot
    • Targets opponent's Energy only, without dealing any damage
    • 50% of Gun's damage only


    Auxiliary Cores:

    N/A

    Armor Cores:

  • Armored Roots
    • Increase the defensive boost to 33%
    • Lasts for 3 turns (can be seen as drawback too; restricts Melee attacks)

  • Critical Heal
    • Affects Generator as well + any future healing skills/cores (if they work like Field Medic)

  • Generator
    • Shortens the duration of an active Poison skill - if any - by -1 turn (brings it closer to Piston Punch; deals +30 damage and grants tiny amount of rage)


    Expected this to be a bit longer, but the lack of cores... <.< Regardless, how does this sound? Some cores are really underpowered (Armored Roots) whilst some could use an additional effect, especially defensive cores (Generator/Critical Heal).
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 1
    2/10/2014 16:18:26   
    s0u1ja b0y
    Member

    		Why not remove hatchling rush period. 30% is nothing. If you heal for 600 only 180 less. That isn't much of a difference with all the high up builds and ways toregain hhealth. You're pretty much making the skill useless. The changes here make these cores useless
    Epic  Post #: 2
    2/10/2014 16:23:37   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Because cores don't get removed, period.

    "The changes here make these cores useless" - if you haven't read through it, don't comment. There's only one nerf being made (Hatchling Rush). EP-draining cores get a buff for everyone, and around the same in terms of effectiveness for Strength builds.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 3
    2/10/2014 17:07:32   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 How about moving energy storm to an auxiliary core that removes energy of both opponents and scales with your total aux damage (including the support)? Right now there aren't that many aux cores, especially non-promo ones, and there are too many cores that scale with strength, not to mention too many energy-removing skills and cores scaling with strength as well.
    Epic  Post #: 4
    2/10/2014 17:17:27   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 I still see it as a bit restrictive, hence why I went with "scales with x weapon damage only" - especially when Strength has too many cores already, so yeah. Although, variety wouldn't kill.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 5
    2/11/2014 2:09:14   
    Noobatron x3000
    Member

    		Armoured roots + hybrid armour all im saying I mean your wasting two turns to go into god mode. but still
    Post #: 6
    2/11/2014 22:22:39   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 ^God mode for 1 turn because if I remember correctly armored roots lasts a pathetic 2 turns and you have to cast hybrid too. Unless you cast hybrid first, then you'll go god mode for 2 turns, which is still not that great when crits and rage are %-based on defense/resistance piercing.
    Epic  Post #: 7
    2/11/2014 22:27:31   
    Mother1
    Member

    		@ exploding

    When the passive armors change to active they are no longer ignored so if I were to attack you with my rage I would still have to go against 100% of that buff same with any shield. Only the original armor closes 45% so if you had 300 normal, 150 hybrid and 150 armored roots, the 150 from hybrid and armored roots would still stay where as 135 of your armor would be ignored with rage so I would be going up against 465 defense/resist which is quite a bit.
    Epic  Post #: 8
    2/11/2014 22:55:10   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 ^I'm aware. I actually forgot passive armors used to be entirely ignored by rage, lol. I was talking about how rage and crits were made specifically for anti-tanking and high defenses as you gain rage very fast against high defenses.
    Epic  Post #: 9
    2/11/2014 23:17:19   
    Mother1
    Member

    		@ exploding penguin

    Crits have been nerfed into the ground because if I remember correctly I remember rabble saying "Crits shouldn't be used for battling tanks that is what rage is for" Sometime ago when someone cried about crits in an old thread just before passives became actives.

    Now out of all the effects crits have the least effect. If you were to get a crit with a rage attack you are only getting an extra 30-50 damage depending on what level you are. No offense but thanks to them trying to make battles longer they made crits a shell of what they used to be.
    Epic  Post #: 10
    2/12/2014 7:05:26   
    Remorse
    Member

    		Personally I think energy shot should do damage as well.


    It should be 50% energy drain 50% damage.

    the 50% damage amount however is calculated after defenses which would allow it to hit higher then 30 in any normal circumstance.



    Therefore the skill can be actually worth doing when not in a scenario when you desperately need to drain the opponents energy or lose, like it is now essentially.


    The cost of the core may need to be slightly increased.

    < Message edited by Remorse -- 2/12/2014 7:06:18 >
    Epic  Post #: 11
    2/12/2014 12:36:19   
    Ranloth
    Banned
    quote:

    It should be 50% energy drain 50% damage.

    quote:

    The cost of the core may need to be slightly increased.

    But would this be a benefit to everyone? 50% damage vs. a tank build is gonna end up being 30 - even with Strength build. Even more so with non-Strength build. So you'd pay more EP for 30 damage (or more at times) and rage-related bonuses.

    Unless, of course, you're talking about damage ignoring the defenses completely; pure Gun damage only so L40 players have +350 damage -> -175 EP drain and +175 damage to your opponent & increase in EP cost. Effective on tanks, but ineffective on glass cannons. How about this?

    *just read your post about calculating the damage after defenses, but it'd still be somewhat ineffective, imo, unlike the above method*

    < Message edited by Trans -- 2/12/2014 12:40:01 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 12
    2/12/2014 13:42:00   
    Xendran
    Member

    		If you had 470 sideram damage, which is a fairly common number for non-str builds, you would still only hit 35 damage against a 400 def / res tank even if 50% was calculated after def/res. 85% after def/res would be 59.5, 85% before def/res would be 30.

    At 530 damage, which is pretty high, youd deal 65 damage against 400 def/res at 50% after def/res, 110.5 if 95% is calculated after def/res, 50.5 damage at 85% before def/res.
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
    2/12/2014 14:02:08   
    Noobatron x3000
    Member

    		meh im quite happy with my build not a copy cat build l 40 with 2 legend ranks


    hp--1100
    prim/sec damage 500-530
    def 352-423
    res 351-396

    strenghs- well balanced for the most part

    weaknesses crits
    Post #: 14
    2/12/2014 23:20:24   
    Remorse
    Member

    		@ Trans,


    50% damage after defenses would still be descent if not better because if you ignore defense completely you will get little or no rage, which ruins that bonus which is the main bonus the core needs since small damage is really only good when it allows you to keep up with rage whilst applying needed effect, making it an effective alternative to using stronger energy drains because it allows some sort of rage gain compensation.


    an example of what the damage may be like:

    If you hit 300 now on someone with medium to strong defenses ( this is ignoring what your side arm total damage is and your opponents defenses are rather the 50% is applied to what would of been the end damage to the opponent,) then you will only hit 150 damage with the core which is far more then 30,
    whilst still providing that small energy drain and small rage gain.


    A better description of the core would be, 50% true damage converted to energy drain, and 50% end damage.
    Epic  Post #: 15
    2/13/2014 3:49:10   
    Ranloth
    Banned
    quote:

    50% damage after defenses would still be descent if not better because if you ignore defense completely you will get little or no rage, which ruins that bonus which is the main bonus the core needs since small damage is really only good when it allows you to keep up with rage whilst applying needed effect, making it an effective alternative to using stronger energy drains because it allows some sort of rage gain compensation.

    But... it doesn't need damage. It compensates for the lack of it, by having lower EP cost. Adding damage means you increase the EP cost, and increased EP cost means it's more difficult for some classes to use. My suggestion is to make it fair towards everyone, whether it's pure EP drain or 50/50 for EP drain and damage (which ignores defenses), because it'd work off your Gun's damage only - so no Strength build would get an advantage and neither would a tank build. Sorry, but I don't agree to raise EP cost, add in garbage amount of damage, keep the Str scaling, and all for tiny amount of rage. You're free to suggest it yourself instead.

    Raising the EP cost would be necessary, so players won't have a ball at using it to kill opponent; due to guaranteed x damage.

    The point of my suggestion is to buff them in their own way, and remove the improvements from Strength, so anyone can take advantage of these cores. You want to make them stay on Strength and deal absolutely pitiful damage due to rage bonus (read Xendran's post), and you're forgetting that it could be used to stall rage as well as be efficient for everyone. Stalling rage and still dealing damage can be really helpful - at least it was on my CH, whilst trying to postpone raging IA for more damage.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 16
    2/13/2014 23:07:32   
    Remorse
    Member

    		^ I only said they MAY need to increase the cost,
    But the changes I suggested arn't major and the current status of the core is underpowered so perhaps the cost could stay the same.


    Rage stalling is a great tool I agree, however I don't think it is appropriate for a gun core which should be more closely related to using gun damage which includes the gun rage gain, unless the core is specifically targeted at rage but it is not.


    here is another idea,

    What if they made both side inlcude defences in the calculation.

    But limit the damage to 80% of total gun damage
    and the drain to 75% of of total gun damage.

    this would mean the core could be used during rage and actually increase the drain when raged or when you reduce the defenses of the opponent.
    The cost of the core would need to be dramatically increased as combined the gun has an 155% effect, however that seems high but because it split in two and mitigated by defenses it's actually not that strong.

    For example say you deal, 470 damage with your gun,

    The damage would be, 470*80 = 376 and on someone with 300 defense it would only hit 76, however that is not the only effect.

    The drain would be , 470*75 = 353 and against the same person with 300 defense it would only drain 53 energy.

    Together you have an effect of 76 damage and 53 drain in an average scenario,
    not really worthy of a large cost increase however that is not it's niche use.


    If you combine the core with rage and or defense shrinkers you will get a dramatic increase in the damage and drain and would get a nice combo of a descent drain and average damage if used with rage but then again you lose the opportunity to use rage with a much stronger attack.


    In situation the core would become very strong in certain strategies, however this fact is muted when you consider that it can just as easily be countered with shields/ damage shriekers making the potential power of the core come down to the strategies of each player, which is how most cores should be rather then the un-counterable OP disaster some cores like the hatch-ling rush core are.



    Note, that this would mean this core would become the first energy drain core to improve/decrease according to the players defense/defence ignoring factors.

    < Message edited by Remorse -- 2/13/2014 23:08:50 >
    Epic  Post #: 17
    2/14/2014 7:46:02   
    Ranloth
    Banned
    quote:

    I only said they MAY need to increase the cost

    No, it'd be a must.

    Again, you're free to suggest it yourself. I'm staying with the current concept, which includes no damage or whatsoever. You can create your own thread for this, since I'm tired of repeating Xendran's words about how pointless the damage would be, and insignificant rage bonus.

    quote:

    Rage stalling is a great tool I agree, however I don't think it is appropriate for a gun core which should be more closely related to using gun damage which includes the gun rage gain, unless the core is specifically targeted at rage but it is not.

    And back at you. It's supposed to drain EP, not deal damage as well. I don't think it's appropriate for an EP draining core to deal damage. My suggestion stands, and I won't be altering it to deal damage.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 18
    2/14/2014 7:50:27   
    Remorse
    Member

    		Alrighty then...

    By the way it is not pointless... saying it is pointless is like saying the old assim with a small drain and damage was pointless, it was far from that.

    It was amazing skill and then they buffed it to make it over the top...

    Damage with drain is a great combo great for many scenarios.



    Epic  Post #: 19
    2/14/2014 7:54:44   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 But my point is, I don't want these cores to be useful for Strength builds only.

    I want cores to be aimed at everyone, and some specific ones being better for one build than the other. Yours just gives Strength bonus back, which I do not want. I've went for a compromise in post #12, but you've said rage stalling wouldn't be good, because you want Strength scaling on it - unless you want to deal x damage (fixed) and waste rage on it which would do absolutely nothing (no damage increase), hence why it'd not waste your rage and could be good to stall - if you need to.

    Post #4 and #5 cover why I don't want these cores to be on Strength, not all of them at least. Seeing as you've complained before about Strength builds having way too many cores, I'd have expected you to at least agree with the concept of not relying on Strength for the effect.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 20
    2/14/2014 9:51:15   
    Remorse
    Member

    		^ If they made cores like I wanted then this would not be the case.


    Their would be multiple core passives that potentially alter the actives effect.


    For example their could be a passive gun core that change to damage to improve with DEX but as a result have a 10% reduction in damage.


    Then that would effect the gun active I suggested by making the drain increase by your dex.


    They need to make cores similar to the gem system in the game path of exile.

    < Message edited by Remorse -- 2/14/2014 10:23:13 >
    Epic  Post #: 21
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