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RE: =AQ= Poelala-Like Boosters & IronThorn Shield Update

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6/25/2020 14:12:56   
RobynJoanne
Member
 

 @lolerster
Old-lean armors did give mages a slight edge in pure damage when miscs were included, but that is relatively minor. Mages and warriors were pretty much equal before this update.

While I don't necessarily agree with your assumption about spell-boosters since people are likely to plan on just spellcasting and thus use only the strongest spell-boosters available, I mostly agree with your post. However, it is also worth noting that a couple of the best spell-boosters are rare. Namely, the cutlasses and Adventure Figure are rare. On the other hand, Gauntlet of Xano is also rare. Thus, it may not be the best idea to compare these two situations. A Zabura's Hammer + Bloodzerker vs Bloodblade/Sila's Staff boosted spell is probably a more apt comparison. There is also the fact that people are far more likely to use Grakma's Harbinger for spell-boosting, so *1.2 is a fair assumption. This all does give mages a better showing than your current numbers, but I do agree that the anger is quite excessive.

Side Note: Arctic Athame is the ice booster that triggers on Int monsters.
Post #: 51
6/25/2020 14:37:11   
gavers
Member
 

 Grakma is not the best spell-boosting misc, as you take a hefty penalty to your accuracy unless you can offset it (all sources for doing that are rare). Therefore *1.2 is not a fair assumption.
Post #: 52
6/25/2020 14:39:25   
battlesiege15
Member

quote:

@Robyn, Kayoh and Battlesiege: We already have Grakma Harbinger for the berserk effect. Do we really need to return CIT to 'only shield worth using' status?
Well, it's more so for trying to keeping the shield somewhat true to what it had before. A STR drive is nice for sure, I'll give you that especially since it doesn't exist and does increase the damage output of the shield. But there are easy ways to just give a flavor effect that makes the shield unique as well. I personally was thinking a passive -BTH lean for more damage. The Shield of Agony's Blood has the effect for the Monster (-10 BTH for *85/75 damage) so a similar mechanic could just be introduced to Ironthorn but for the Player's side. That's very balanced and still in line with the original CIT.

Or an effect of taking increased damage for a damage boost which would be the roundabout way of the bad elemental resistance the shield had. So instead of +9% to other elements like the old shield, having a passive +(X/1.4)% incoming damage would be a good way of keeping the shield's flavor.

Just giving my 2 cents. I'm glad the level 100 item that people are using at end-game has been addressed but also at the same time, I do wish the shield's theme was kept.

As for the Booster pets/guests, how does this change make them in terms of overall damage for non-beastmasters and beastmasters? Are they more useful for Beastmasters compared to a regular guest or not really?

And random thing, why can't the CIT still remain in the Berserker Shop and also in Adder's Forge? Doesn't seem necessary to completely relocate a Berserker class shop item.

EDIT: Thank you Kam and staff for addressing this. I know a lot of people have strong feelings about these changes but just know that we do appreciate the work you guys put in the game. Y'all are great

< Message edited by battlesiege15 -- 6/25/2020 14:43:04 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 53
6/25/2020 15:03:02   
J9408
Member

quote:

And random thing, why can't the CIT still remain in the Berserker Shop and also in Adder's Forge? Doesn't seem necessary to completely relocate a Berserker class shop item.


Probably because that is where most of the reworked equipment usually go to. Like Dreadknight cleaver and rainbow raygun. The only thing I don't like about the location is it takes some clicks to get back to battleon.
Post #: 54
6/25/2020 16:00:51   
Kalle29
Member

OK I've read through the thread as well as on Discord and I think I need to clear up some things since some people don't understand what my point is.

No one is saying that old CiT was balanced in accordance with the standard, what I'm saying is that CiT was the one thing warriors had to make the build somewhat comparable. There are plenty of advantages mages have over warriors, like being able to nuke via several boosts to one spell, there is no equivalent for warriors. Mages also have one true main stat whereas warriors need to use both STR and DEX. Skills for warriors often get converted to ranged for some reason so that CiT STR drive won't be nearly as useful as an INT drive. And mages oviously get access to a ton of spells (both new ones and old "broken" ones) that warriors never use due to the MP cost. Even things like Purple Rain are way more useful for mages. Quite literally the only thing warriors have over mages is the weapon damage, and CiT was the one thing that substantially boosted it, mages still have the elemental wizards. I know it was broken but I think that says more about the uneven state of the game more than CiT itself.

I accept that this change is permanent, I just hope other builds get some attention too.
AQ  Post #: 55
6/25/2020 16:09:24   
J9408
Member

^This is somewhat unrelated, but I always thought the STR stat, with END, should give a little boost towards SP regeneration. Like a little stat combo bonus.

The more strength you have the stronger the body is.

This would not only give warriors a slight edge but make STR boosting items slightly more popular. It would work nicely with the Chief Ironthorn update.
Post #: 56
6/25/2020 16:29:04   
Drak
Member

The nerf sucks but im still nuking fine with bloodmage+boosts. It may not be ridiculous 20k+ a turn like before but 4k+ is still overkill
Post #: 57
6/26/2020 0:46:10   
RobynJoanne
Member
 

 @gavers
There's always Moonwalker's Grace. Grakma's bth hit isn't that much worse than old CIT, though the benefits are of course much lower, so I thought people were/are willing to take the hit since most monsters do not have sufficient MRM to dodge most spells.

I do think this does go back to my earlier point about nerfing Purple Rain. Warriors have always had greater efficiency than mages, but Purple Rain really does make efficiency an irrelevant point. The increased MP cost of Imbued with Lore burst spells or relatively high HP cost of Bloodmages matter very little when they're all one needs to finish a battle, and we get healed every two battles. Healing SP between battles would help but would not address the elephant in the room.
Post #: 58
6/26/2020 2:30:23   
Nameless King
Member

Ohhh well,time to change my build to mage again it seems........*sigh*..........gg......thanks for the paladin update tho~
Post #: 59
6/26/2020 11:20:28   
cVantez
Member

Question for devs: Was this update meant to affect Chilly/Ramssy as well? It looks like they are now using 
20 + 20*((main / expMain)*0.75 + (CHA / expCHA)*0.25)
instead of 100% main.

< Message edited by cVantez -- 6/26/2020 11:26:59 >
AQ  Post #: 60
6/26/2020 11:54:53   
lolerster
Member
 

 Oh you are right, those don't seem to have changed. They should be changed as well imo.
AQ  Post #: 61
6/26/2020 12:01:02   
cVantez
Member

Oh, I mean that they were changed by this update. Previously the formula they used was 
20 + 20*(main / expMain)

Now, they use the first formula I posted (which was the old formula for P/D/T before this update changed it to 50/50). I just wanted to check if this is was intentional or not, since they weren't mentioned directly in the update notes.

< Message edited by cVantez -- 6/26/2020 12:25:06 >
AQ  Post #: 62
6/26/2020 14:29:53   
Lv 1000
Member


 The only booster that wasn't affected is Lepre-Chan because it's already full CHA scaling. If anything, these changes to other boosters increase the relevance of Lepre-Chan which is good!
Post #: 63
6/26/2020 20:54:55   
Willowofwish
Member

Speaking from personal experience and a very specific whale setup:

Usually with big shifts in meta/new equipment gears update, my rule of thumb is to always visit the Final Challenge and test new setups out, mostly because well the boss in it are, relatively speaking, good representation of what 95% of the mobs we will face in daily quests and such.

Just from my character's perspective, CiT change was expected and much needed but I can still pretty much hit the damage cap on every boss with minimal effort. If anything that might be a concern, wars will just get more grindy and tedious(then again, if your warring to begin with, it should be expected). Rainbow Knight Z just becomes Terror-Rainbow(Whale) Zerker Z for big damage cap.

Not to mention, WKZ still does hefty damage post-nerf, you just won't be seeing 30k damage that easily, but 10k damage or more is still easily achievable.
The same could be said for the Devourer Scythe and Earth/Shadowstrike, which are mostly self-sustaining in terms of damage, and still can 1HKO most enemies with the appropriate stacks

Granted to bear in mind this is quite the setup, but can consistently dish out huge damage.

Overall though, good change, but that's just one out of many other changes that should be looked into if one wants to keep the standard(purple rain is the biggest culprit here). Looking forward to see what paladin has to offer.

< Message edited by Willowofwish -- 6/26/2020 21:26:15 >
AQ  Post #: 64
6/27/2020 7:24:10   
s_venom
Member

I am not entirely sure why forcing players to sit through dozens of turns to finish one monster is appealing in any way, shape or form.
I very much enjoyed how things were before this change, and I honestly hope there would be no other changes of this nature.
My desire to play this game already hit rock bottom...

< Message edited by s_venom -- 6/27/2020 14:37:20 >
AQ DF  Post #: 65
6/27/2020 9:45:22   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@s_venom if you are taking dozens of turns to kill a single monster without CIT, I think the problem is more likely to lie with your build and setup. I've been running without CIT for a little while now (self-imposed limitation to make the game more interesting). I found that, once I went through with the transition, CIT wasn't necessary at all. It just significantly increased an already arbitrary damage output.

With that said, I understand it can be difficult to adjust to a new system. If you're taking dozens of turns, I'm sure there are plenty of people that could gladly advise you on how to improve your setup!
AQ  Post #: 66
6/27/2020 14:49:54   
s_venom
Member

@CH4OT1C!
I was talking about an instance were you fight without any setup what so ever.
I.E do damage boosts, no buffs, not skills ect', meaning you only use your armor, shield, weapon and pressing attack.
With the sheer amount of HP some monsters have, CIT made fighting them a lot faster and way less tedious.

Sure, I could pop WZK, use Chaos orb to scramble the monster defense, use the proper buffs to increase Strength/Int and BTH, and then attack the monster, but I don't always want that.

Sometimes I just put CIT and click attack until either I am dead or the monster is. Which was very very fun.
Other times I could also sit and stackup on every possible buff and then destroy the monster.
This was a choice I very much liked.
AQ DF  Post #: 67
6/27/2020 16:32:23   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@s_venom: The game is based around a 20 turn formula, fighting two monsters that are each expected to take 10 turns. You taking dozens of turns suggests to me that either that monster has a considerable amount of END investment/Defensive abilities (which would obviously make the battle take longer than expected) or, once again, an improper setup. That same formula assumes SP contributes a certain amount to your damage. Sitting around without the extra damage from, say, a WKZ skill, will obviously make the battle take longer than expected.

To me, it sounds more that your setup is improper, or you're expecting something that the game isn't balanced around? With that said, you can absolutely click attack until either you or the monster is dead. Activate a stat boost shield, which boosts your damage (like, say, the new CIT) and you're all set. It's just a little bit more difficult now we don't have an incredibly broken shield at our disposal

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 6/27/2020 16:39:07 >
AQ  Post #: 68
6/27/2020 17:23:18   
s_venom
Member

CH4OT1C!
It seems my phrasing was improper.
I didn't mean dozens of turns as to imply 24+ turns from players side, but rather that the number of turns if higher without CIT.
And while I know that the game is based around 20 turn formula, you didn't have to follow that formula thanks to the items with (CIT of course one of them).
We are talking here about a very long period of time that you could play with a build and set of items that allowed you to finish fights far more quickly and like it or not people grew accustomed to it and based their play style on it.

Nobody is arguing that CIT effect was outside the normal balance of the game, rather the argument is in the fact that CIT was this way for years without any change and most importantly letting stay that way wouldn't effect anyone in a negative way seeing as this as single player game.
And just to nip this in the bud, no one is saying make all items broken or throw balance out of the window.
Rather make CIT an exception to the rule, due to how long it was this way and because it doesn't hurt anyone.
AQ DF  Post #: 69
6/27/2020 17:54:46   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@s_venom
1). Hopefully I was explicit enough in my previous posts, but the 20-turn formula is an assumption that we make in order to standardise the game. Of course, both the player and monster can somewhat deviate from that assumption. The main issue was that CIT did not conform to this rule. It violated them to the extent where almost every monster was trivialised, boss or otherwise.
2). You could play with the overpowered version of CIT for a long period of time, and players did indeed get accustomed to it. The viewpoint I would take is that they grew attached to an item that they knew was extremely overpowered, exploiting that fact to its fullest. The item is, of course, beloved by many for that very reason. It's not surprising that the staff would delay balancing it due to the inevitable controversy such a nerf would cause. However, that doesn't detract from the necessity of said inevitable nerf. This was a long time coming, and the players knew it. Perhaps the lesson here should be to nerf much more rapidly in future, given we wouldn't want players to grow accustomed to such a clearly overpowered effect.
3). I'm not saying it should never happen, but we've already seen the result of making such an exception. CIT was left far longer than it should have (Kam has said as much). The result was a huge restriction of build diversity, where spellcasting mages became almost obsolete, favouring skills instead. The shield was basically the only one used by pretty much every offensive build in the game. It was causing a huge amount of trouble and needed fixing to enable diversification. Even now, that exception is causing an issue, as those who've grown accustomed to using the item are arguing that it should be kept an exception for that same reason.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 6/27/2020 18:01:36 >
AQ  Post #: 70
6/27/2020 18:15:27   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 The single player nature of the game does not remove the importance of balance. That the gameplay choices of any given player do not directly impact the gameplay experiences of others does not alter the fact that development choices affect the experience of all players. Consistent balance is essential to the continuation of the game, for reasons including, but far from limited to:

  • The value of all player experiences. Arbitrary choices and exceptions made for the sake of the preferences of a few detract from the experiences of the others and curtail future development.
  • The integrity of our word as developers. Contradictory standards and arbitrary exceptions invalidate all reasons we may give for future adjustments. Players could (And rightly, one might add) point at any decisions we take and consider them moot on the grounds of inconsistency with other arbitrary choices. Balance is not something one takes piecemeal, especially only where it's easy or non-controversial to implement.
  • The range of possibilities for future development. The existence of overpowered items inherently curtails the development of all future items that may be measured against them. In contrast, underpowered items are inherently unsatisfying, especially when not every individual item can be so elaborate as to have appeal beyond its primary use. %melee costs for effects increase the more than an item has going for it, making hedging the value of items that would measure up to arbitrary exceptions an exercise in spending additional effort for something that players are likely to be turned away by the drawbacks of.

    Consider this last reason in particular, even though CiT exemplified all of these problems. This item was beyond unbalanced since its inception, and extremely overtuned by current standards. It warped the balance so badly that armor and weapon design were impacted by it. Any modern items that might compete with it would be obsolete on deployment if it remained - Given the feeling of an underpowered item by the presence of this single sore thumb. Especially with Paladin about to deploy, it could not be allowed to continue curtailing future ideas.

    While we understand the frustration of combat slowing down, we have accounted for the ripple effects and have already planned future items that will address any build identity issues that this change only leaves half-fixed. The rebalancing of CIT, however, will not be reverted.
    • Post #: 71
    6/27/2020 20:55:39   
    Uskius
    Member

    		Now here's an update I thought I'd never see! I take it this means ArchMage is coming soon?
    AQ Epic  Post #: 72
    6/27/2020 21:32:06   
    ruleandrew
    Member
     

    		 If you want to use + 50% boast at level 150 while wearing fully offensive armour

    Typical middle road outcome:
    you take ~43% resistance damage plus 436 hp cost

    See Hydromancer Bloodmage case (https://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22107953&mpage=6&key=).
    43% = 100% - 32% - 25%



    AQ  Post #: 73
    6/27/2020 22:34:06   
    Legendario
    Member

    		A shield that takes hp and sp to deal +50% damage would be cool. That way, we won't use it every turn and use it mostly when we need to, or nukes and spend a good amount of hp and sp doing it. Like using normal shields to chip down damage and then use the blood shield or something like that to take the rest. Or use a set up. And yes, I know a shield is meant to protect, but some shield were created to attack as well. Let's say, we're using the shield to attack and that's why we deal more damage, lol.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 74
    6/27/2020 22:48:17   
    RobynJoanne
    Member
     

    		 @Legendario
    Have you thought of using Sham's Off-Hand Blunderbuss? That's the exact way to get an extra 50% melee damage from a shield when combined with Arms of the Dragonguard. It is the exact example of a shield that is powerful but ultimately completely underwhelming because of CIT's previous grasp on the meta.

    Am I correct in believing that this means that we'll be getting more interesting items (particularly shields) in the future? If so, I can't wait to see the new builds the community will come up with in response to said items.
    Post #: 75
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