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4/17/2022 20:33:55

PD
Member

Posting this because I feel like at this point, this warrants its own discussion. This is going to encompass premium items in general, be it GGB's, Z-token items and Package Items.

So in the most recent release thread, I started a discussion point about how the GGB's have problematic issues. To summarize the main points raised by various peoples:

1. The dividing line between the tiers seems to be arbitrary, but concentrated towards the UR category.

2. Power Creep has made a lot of items no longer make sense in their tiers. A lot of items are also newly released in tiers that feel inappropriate to their effect/impact.

3. To continue point #1, a disproportionate amount of items are in the UR category. This makes for a lot of items being inaccessible in general.

4. An increasing amount of content is now GGB only. Ostensibly these help "keep the lights on" but leave many people disappointed when the items generally aren't appealing enough or they just don't provide much to any value at all, or they tie themselves to the current trend of power creep.

5. GGB's, especially in a rotation format also contribute to inaccessibility of items and builds and playstyles in general by locking them behind premium games and/or unobtainability.

Though the above points were raised for GGB's, but these are certainly not exclusive to them. Now it's been raised that my personal suggestion to move around the boxes between the shops is either infeasible and/or impossible and that the most pragmatic way to address some of these issues would be to adjust the items individually. But this then invites a greater discussion points in general:

1. What is or should be the dividing line between each tier for GGB's? What's the most fair way to go about this going forward?

2. Are GGB's (and premium items in general) really the best way to "keep the lights on"? Should we be exploring other models of monetization?

As for my own personal thoughts on these:

For the first point, this is a little difficult. This requires discussions after the fact and this kind of information often can't be done until after they're released. Even if they told us what's being in each tier this isn't helpful until we know what the effects are which only happens after the fact when it might be too late. So even if adjustments are made the initial shop placements aren't easily changeable.

For point #2, I feel like we should be thinking about alternatives. At this point it's known that AQ is increasingly relying on premium releases to keep itself up, and that this often takes time away from the ability to do other more important things (stat/item balance, QoL/Anti-Annoyance, Quest/Item revamps, etc). I'm not sure what the answer to this will be but I cannot be the only one who sees that the increasing premium-ness is becoming problematic to the development/progress cycle of AQ.

PS: Another point to be raised. It's kind of curious that we have discussions about the necessity of GGB's and token releases, when it's fairly known at this point that most people do their purchasing during sale periods and/or Black Friday. The bet seems to be hedging itself that we anticipate that there will be content that we are interested months or possibly longer after we do a huge bulk purchase. Yet I feel like this is an impracticable strategy because at heart while there is a nominal price to things, that this implies that people have much lower impressionable thresholds to willingly buy things. This is problematic as we're makig bets that these "keep the lights on" releases are appealing enough but contribute to power creep or they just fall flat and nobody buys them which at that point it would have been better spent doing housekeeping stuff.

< Message edited by PD -- 4/17/2022 20:51:20 >

Post #: 1

4/18/2022 7:36:38

Kaizoku
Member

I'd be fine with some sort of monthly subscription VIP service if it "kept the lights on" and allowed for more releases for quality of life and mechanics over needing to churn out packages/GGB constantly. It's hard to think of what sort of benefits such a service would give though. Just spitballing here, but maybe a monthly amount of tokens, GGBs, increased XP cap, increased storage (though that would be keeping your items hostage should you wish to drop the subscription), color variants of popular items (which I imagine take a bit less effort than new ones?) and maybe the occasional reskin with new art at certain periods like after 6 months/1 year of subscription you'd get some fancy looking level 0 version High Oracle's Taladosian Robes which is a beloved armor if chided for its looks. This would allow the enthusiasts to support the game while receiving some minor benefits for doing so (no powercreep, only cosmetics or QoL) and staff would have a more steady kind of monetization.

Post #: 2

4/18/2022 10:37:29

Bu Kek Siansu
Member

I hope the staff will take a look to see what adjustments need to be made.

quote:

I'd be fine with some sort of monthly subscription VIP service if it "kept the lights on" and allowed for more releases for quality of life and mechanics over needing to churn out packages/GGB constantly. It's hard to think of what sort of benefits such a service would give though.

A great idea. I'm willing to support it, "some sort of monthly subscription VIP service".
Like I have "YOUKU ANIMATION VIP", ïQiyi VIP", "YouTube Premium", "Netflix Premium", etc.

Post #: 3

4/18/2022 17:06:46

Guardswordian
Member

Personally, I don't like monthly payments. I hated how we suddenly lose access to things once the subscription is up in AQW, and I pretty much stopped playing AQW because of it. If it's anything like that, I am strongly against it. One of the best things about Adventure Quest is that one-time payment grants players access to everything. Now, I'm not against the idea of monthly subscriptions for ADDITIONAL benefits, such as more golden giftboxes, extra XP gain, more z-tokens, and higher chance of getting high-tier golden giftboxes or extra buffs.
But I AM against against it if it grants access to some items/quests that non-subscribers don't. I mean, if it's just custom skins or something, honestly I'm fine, but the idea that you lose access to an item/quest you paid for REALLY doesn't sit well with me. I can't play this game consistently over the year, so what happens if I pay for subscription, get something, and leave for sometime only to return and find I can't access something that I already bought? That's what ruined AQW for me. Also, if you can keep using it afterwards, what's the difference with Z-token items? I think a lot of original users will leave if this kind of monthly-subscription-only item/quest is applied to Adventure Quest. I know it will ruin the game for me.

Post #: 4

4/18/2022 18:51:09

Zennistrad
Member

I think monthly payments are preferable to what is essentially a gambling mechanic. There's been a lot said already on lootboxes and why they're bad, and while AQ's are at the very least much more forgiving than most "triple ayyy" releases, a subscription model is far less likely to feel like you're wasting money if you fail to get what you're looking for. I'm saying this as someone who has spent more money than I'd probably like on trying to get good items, exp boosts, etc.

I understand that monetization is inevitable for AQ since it's a free-to-play web game, but I do think there is some discussion to be had on doing it better.

Post #: 5

4/19/2022 11:52:06

Korriban Gaming
Banned

quote:

I'd be fine with some sort of monthly subscription VIP service if it "kept the lights on" and allowed for more releases for quality of life and mechanics over needing to churn out packages/GGB constantly.

quote:

A great idea. I'm willing to support it, "some sort of monthly subscription VIP service".

quote:

I think monthly payments are preferable to what is essentially a gambling mechanic. There's been a lot said already on lootboxes and why they're bad, and while AQ's are at the very least much more forgiving than most "triple ayyy" releases, a subscription model is far less likely to feel like you're wasting money if you fail to get what you're looking for. I'm saying this as someone who has spent more money than I'd probably like on trying to get good items, exp boosts, etc.

I'm going to heavily disagree here. I absolutely hate subscription models and turning AQ into AQW is a bad idea overall.

quote:

I hated how we suddenly lose access to things once the subscription is up in AQW, and I pretty much stopped playing AQW because of it. If it's anything like that, I am strongly against it. One of the best things about Adventure Quest is that one-time payment grants players access to everything. Now, I'm not against the idea of monthly subscriptions for ADDITIONAL benefits, such as more golden giftboxes, extra XP gain, more z-tokens, and higher chance of getting high-tier golden giftboxes or extra buffs.
But I AM against against it if it grants access to some items/quests that non-subscribers don't. I mean, if it's just custom skins or something, honestly I'm fine, but the idea that you lose access to an item/quest you paid for REALLY doesn't sit well with me. I can't play this game consistently over the year, so what happens if I pay for subscription, get something, and leave for sometime only to return and find I can't access something that I already bought? That's what ruined AQW for me. Also, if you can keep using it afterwards, what's the difference with Z-token items? I think a lot of original users will leave if this kind of monthly-subscription-only item/quest is applied to Adventure Quest. I know it will ruin the game for me.

Exact same sentiments here

quote:

There's been a lot said already on lootboxes and why they're bad, and while AQ's are at the very least much more forgiving than most "triple ayyy" releases, a subscription model is far less likely to feel like you're wasting money if you fail to get what you're looking for. I'm saying this as someone who has spent more money than I'd probably like on trying to get good items, exp boosts, etc.

Disagree with this. A subscription based model means you would essentially be paying for items that could potentially be bad down the road. The giftbox system while not perfect due to its "gacha" nature is way better than a subscription system because you can decide on the spot if that particular month actually has items you want before you try gambling for it. Additionally, the fact that you can save up the boxes to use at a later time and the conversion system already takes away most of the negatives from using a lootbox system in the first place.

I agree with all of PD's points but a subscription-based model is a horrible way to go about doing things. One suggestion I have is to do things the way DF currently is doing. Make the premium stuff cosmetics or reskins of some of the better items (like different colors every month or something), this way you can keep all unique items in the shop but different color variations each month.

AQW

Post #: 6

4/19/2022 12:27:05

dr jo
Member

I am with Korriban on this is monthly paid service was required for VIP items would quit AQ fully not a fan monthly subscriptions, please play AQ world's/ 3D for monthly premium content.

< Message edited by dr jo -- 4/19/2022 12:43:52 >

Post #: 7

4/19/2022 23:34:27

ruleandrew
Member

Set up ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop that rotate once per month. Items that are located in ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop shall be available for 1 month per year.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 4/20/2022 0:01:22 >

Post #: 8

4/20/2022 9:44:45

kreem
Member

AQ can add new token items to the LTS or a new shop that prominently advertises new token items and move some of the GGB release time to Z token item releases in old and new quests.

The items don't need to be unique or amazing and they don't leave have to eventually leave their shop like the majority of GGB eventually did. I feel like the monthly release of GGB takes away attention from items that can be released elsewhere for a more permanent source of revenue.

AQW

Post #: 9

4/20/2022 14:42:10

Bu Kek Siansu
Member

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22402294

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruleandrew

Set up ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop that rotate once per month. Items that are located in ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop shall be available for 1 month per year.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 4/20/2022 0:01:22 >

Disagreed! It would NOT be a good idea because for somehow some players / new characters / new players
might want to purchase it anytime but it went rare a few minutes ago and they have to wait for 1 year?

Your idea to set up ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop that rotate once per month but how about if within 1 month
they do NOT have a single GGB UR or they might have/had NOT been online or for somehow they have some issues, etc?

It would be great if you think about others, what they need, about their situations, etc.
What you or some of us think does NOT mean others think the same as you or some of us think.
Considering of how to help each other but NOT to hurt others is the key ...

< Message edited by Bu Kek Siansu -- 4/20/2022 19:58:57 >

Post #: 10

4/20/2022 20:10:38

Guardswordian
Member

What if we made it so you can purchase character win War items? You know, those items you get by winning X waves in wars. Currently, these items are only available to people who have lots of time during the war. And I'm sure many people get part of the set, but didn't manage to get the full set. They'd certainly love to buy the pieces they missed out, wouldn't they? Of course, they'd have to be available only while the war event is online, and people would be still encouraged to participate in the wars because if they get a part of the set, that's one part you don't have to pay for. If having them as cash-only and rotating them in and out every war seems too laborious, we could simply add them to the LTS one the war objective is finished, costing more Z-tokens scaling depending on the required win number then typical z-token items to encourage more Z-token purchases.

< Message edited by Guardswordian -- 4/20/2022 20:13:09 >

Post #: 11

4/21/2022 22:05:35

ruleandrew
Member

quote:

Set up ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop that rotate once per month. Items that are located in ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop shall be available for 1 month per year.
< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 4/20/2022 0:01:22 >

Player will gain the option to change current ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop for 500 z-tokens (this option is available prior to opening golden giftbox). If this effect is on, ultra rare golden giftbox rotation shop will return to default state, once player log out.

See the 'Legends of Lore' quest.

AQ	Post #: 12

4/21/2022 23:35:52

Zennistrad
Member

quote:

Disagree with this. A subscription based model means you would essentially be paying for items that could potentially be bad down the road.

You're doing the same if you gamble with GGBs. It's difficult to track how much real money a GGB costs due to the pricing of Z-Token packages and different token prices of boxes bought in bulk, but the cheapest Z-token package is $2.50 and nets you a little over enough to buy two GGBs. The $5 package nets you a little bit over enough for four GGBs, and the $9.95 package for 2,500 Z-Tokens gives you enough to purchase twelve GGBs (assuming you buy ten in bulk and two for 250 tokens each)

Now, we already know that the odds of pulling an Ultra-Rare GGB are around 3%. And most of the best GGB items are ultra-rare exclusive. You could feasibly spend a not-insignificant amount of money on pulls before getting even one Ultra Rare.

The fact that you can trade in lower rarity boxes for higher rarity ones mitigates this somewhat, but that's significantly offset by two key facts:

A) The option to trade GGBs is hidden in the account menu, and nothing in the game itself informs you that you can do this. Players who aren't active in the forums or the community are fairly unlikely to know this option exists.

B) Going by the rate of 25 commons for a rare ---> 10 rares for an ultra rare, it takes two hundred and fifty commons to trade up to a UR. While it's extremely unlikely for someone to open 250 boxes and not get a single ultra rare, it's still very much possible that you'll end up having to buy that many before you can even get a UR. For some players it's likely not an option to spend that much.

< Message edited by Zennistrad -- 4/22/2022 14:21:35 >

AQ	Post #: 13

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