RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (Full Version)

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BlueKatz -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/5/2011 1:06:57)

ehem people' complaining about SA was nerfed "already"

but say, if it's OP, there's no reason not to nerf it again



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/5/2011 2:19:13)

@eragon

I think strength builds need something to be scared about. i.e. Shadow Arts.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/18/2011 22:02:14)

It has been nerfed twice--it cannot be used in full strength builds and no longer bolsters deflection rate.

It takes a huge amount of stat points, generally requiring you to do away with reflex boost.

I might also add SA is absolutely useless on any turn you opponent uses an unblockable attack.

In the end, its only +10% chance to block only a few blockable strikes per battle.

I actually suggest mages get a +10% deflection chance skill, and mercs get a +10% gain initiative chance (in addition to adding 1 chargeup to maul d.d)

Would that make y'all happy?



button33 -> Solution to Shadow Arts (3/18/2011 20:31:51)

Shadow arts is a commonly abused skill.
We all know it increases block and stun.
So why not take away their deflect rate.

For example, level 5 shadow arts has 5% more to block and stun. Now if it were level 5, the deflect rate for the BH would decrease by 5%, so auxs and guns will less likely be deflected.
Discuss



Avast Volcano -> RE: Solution to Shadow Arts (3/18/2011 20:37:32)

Or there could be an aux/side-arm that could have a 5% Non-deflection ability. Like the Celtic Cleaver with +7% to hit chance, but affects your chance of not getting a deflect when you use your side-arm/aux. That could probably work well too, but would cause a problem against Mages and merc. who rely on support for deflects. There would likely be complaints if the 5% non-deflection chance was introduced.



ND Mallet -> RE: Solution to Shadow Arts (3/18/2011 20:38:35)

Sorry to pop your bubble but the Admins already removed the deflect chance on it awhile ago.



button33 -> RE: Solution to Shadow Arts (3/18/2011 20:41:54)

ND:
I mean that for every level you increase SA by, the deflect % will go up by 1.
So now, a gun or aux attack will be less likely to get deflected. This way, as a bounties block rate increases, their deflect rate decrease.



Competition -> RE: Solution to Shadow Arts (3/18/2011 20:50:10)

doublefacepalm.png

But the deflect % is already gone ..

Never mind, read it wrong. That would be a good idea, but lots of BHs would get mad.



button33 -> RE: Solution to Shadow Arts (3/18/2011 20:52:30)

^ define what you mean.



PD -> Shadow Arts Discussion (3/18/2011 21:07:12)

quote:

Never mind, read it wrong. That would be a good idea, but lots of BHs would get mad.


I would just like to point out here, that there's a famous quote that many people know: "What's popular isn't always right, but what's right isn't always popular" - Meaning just because people get angry, doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Could be applied for everyone's balance reasoning say "But wait, a lot of people would get angry, so we can't do <insert balance action here>!"

And also, wouldn't it just be better to remove ALL the newest skills? If you really think about it, all the three new skills have really done are make more balance problems (and sadly, arguments), not alleviate them.



Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/23/2011 18:50:57)

Threads Merged: From Solution to Shadow Arts to Shadow Arts Discussion. A notification sent to OP by PM.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:00:51)

Since the unveiling of the 3 new skills, one skill has caused more issues over the other two, that happens to be Shadow Arts.

Being a person who uses all three classes, I have had a chance to do my own research.

While the merc and mage new skills are selectively useable, they are not passive throughout the whole match. There are not too many ways these skills can be used in variety of builds.

On the other hand, Shadow Arts is a 2nd passive that is extremely powerful along side Bloodlust, it provides an advantage unlike the other two can incorporate. Also Shadow arts is easily available for various builds, like 5 focus, Park and Attack (gun, bazooka, robot), Support, Strength/Mass. Now compare this with the other two classes, there is not many effective builds like this Mages and Mercs can use.

Bottom line, this skill needs to be revamped in making some sort of sacrifice to use. It needs a decrease somewhere. Mage's Assimilation has a chance of being blocked; Blood Shield decreases HP. Shadow arts has nothing to sacrifice.

To add matters more, Reflex Boost is already installed to use for increased blocking and other uses. This is essentially a double dip skill and does not belong with the other two. Remove this and add a skill that is a strategic skill, not a reliant skill.

What are you thoughts on my views? Please do state.

~JZaanu





BurningFlames -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:06:49)

That's a great idea but they only have two passives, I'd understand if it was for techmages having 3 and all. Being a techmage I use my Gun and zooka thus the blocks don't effect me too much :/. A bonus is that with SA Mercs are less likely to use a destructive STR build which is a problem for me but not for all.



Laos -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:09:01)

I agree with you, wholeheartedly. However I believe, it has been undermined with the introduction of Connect. If you are using the Celtic Cleaver, then Shadow Arts would have to be either level 8-9-10 to even have an impact. With the current requirements for the skill, only a limited amount of builds can use it. Therefore, I think that using Celtic Cleaver, illuminates builds that are heavily dependant on luck to a good enough extent.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:15:10)

My issue with the new weapons is they are outside the skill tree. The game has been compressed so much with blocks and deflects, this seemed to be a viable solution.

Bloodlust is the most powerful passive in the game now. When Mages had ability to cycle skills or heal loop, reroute was effective. Now add agility, reroute is now selectively used. Also people find deadly aim as passive, which it is, but it does not effect the whole match. Along with the compression of builds, deadly aim is deflected and/or able to be defended well with intimidation, high support or various shields.



ED Prince of Shadows -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:15:38)

Two opinions:

1. I believe a nerf to SA in some way is needed. What I do not believe in are these ridiculous "nerfs" that require that make more BHs go 4/5 focus. If you can atleast take that out of BloodLust, go ahead and get rid of SA for all I care.

2. STR merc, STR merc, STR merc. The only unnerfed OP'd build, no, the most buffed build. The Admins have given us BHs the power to be the hardest opponents to these mercs. With our power against these foes, many are discouraged. I believe this skill absolutely must stay for the purpose of an actual challenge to these blatant abusers. If you take that away from us we could get even more strength mercenaries! The day there is a build with no true common "ultimate opponent", is the day I say a buff/nerf is needed badly.

I hear you JZ, but us BHs have been getting it bad with multiple "nerfs", so give us some of our old power by removing the central source of this new wave of "they need nerfs".
Without SA, BHs are nerfed further back then when they were called the worst class (To those who should remember). Those were the days I enjoyed the most... that's why I like the first option the most.



bighobbo -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:29:18)

quote:

Shadow Arts is a 2nd passive that is extremely powerful along side Bloodlust, it provides an advantage unlike the other two can incorporate.


Well, you can't really compare a passive with those two other skills. Yes, maybe Shadow Arts is a bit more powerful than Assimilation and Blood Shield, but you can't really compare them because they are very different in their own ways. Also, Shadow Arts needs a lot of skill points for it to be actually worth using, and that is some sacrifice for a passive skill that relies on luck, unlike some others. Assimilation only needs 1-2 skill points for it to be VERY useful.

Can you compare Stun Grenade to Reroute? Or Cheap Shot to Hybrid Armor? They are on the same tier right? So is Cheap Shot equivalent to Hybrid Armor in terms of usefulness?



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:37:42)

Stun grenade would be equal to overload.
Cheap Shot would be equal to bludgeon.
Hybrid be equal to nothing because w/o it, Mercs would have no physical protection if they got smoked.


These new skills are 2nd tier defensive. Shadow Arts does not need anymore then 1 point. My bh (JZeena) only uses 1 point and has stout defense along with a very strong reflex boost. Bottom line, multiple uses can be made with/around Shadow Arts and the effects are immediate, other two have to set up and use strategy to maximize the players efforts.



RandomForumer -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:39:36)

Use the upgraded celtic cleaver that's been anounced, +10 Connect +1 crit



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts (3/23/2011 16:42:27)

I am speaking within the skill tree and stats. The new weapons are nice, but they are not part of my discussion.



RandomForumer -> Shadow Arts Discussion (3/23/2011 16:44:51)

I dont like shadow arts, thats all i can say in a way most of the epicduel players can understand.



Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/23/2011 18:43:49)

Merging threads from JZaanu's thoughts on Shadow Arts to Shadow Arts Discussion. A notification sent to OP by PM.



SoulAuron -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/24/2011 13:11:37)

this thread has a lot of whining realy...
I think the classes are very balanced with a few exeptions i am not gonna mention because they would be off topic, but the point is that the classes have some rock-paper-scisors dinamics and with that depending on your build you are gonna get completly owned or defeat someone easily; so the fact that you can never win aggainst a certain build is no excuse to say its opped unless no one can win aggainst it.
however i think what the game realy needs are more levels and more skills so as to make the builds more complex and thus not so easily beatable because with more skills to choose from and more points to put in them the rock-paper-scisors dinamics would be less powerfull in determining who wins.
I also wana add that i realy dont like when people say: "just remove the last three skills from all classes, it was better the way it was before" that is crap. the pourpose of a game is to advance, and if there are any balance problems they should be dealt with by adding MORE skills that fill the gaps of a class or that give it new possibilities.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/24/2011 15:04:40)

For Soul Auron

What you determine what whining could be, it is your own personal opinion.

The thread of which I created, then later, was merged was strictly constructive criticism. I noted details with every aspect of my opinion and asked others for their opinion.

As I mentioned with the new 2nd tier skills, there are major issues of build development which the other two classes cannot compete with Shadow Arts. Addition to that point, I also made a point about a sacrifice of some nature, the other two has that, and bhs do not.

I wield all three classes, so my opinion is not biased, but it is about expressing my honest feelings for the structure of this game.

I refuse to follow any direction blindly and believe it is the right way. This version of shadow arts is wrong, and I stand by it.

If you feel the game is balanced with shadow arts, then explain how it is balanced with comparing and contrasting.

~JZaanu



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Shadow Arts Discussion (3/24/2011 15:31:19)

SHADOW ART IS NOT OPED

I think it should buff because it dont work :S , i got 106 dex and i smoke my oponent the dex difference is more than 80 so why still STR abuse Mercs hitting me :S [:@]



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