RE: Communal Feeling in ED (Full Version)

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Laces -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:33:35)

Lol its been a while since I've seen Andy this positive.

@Cyber, This thread is to tell players that you can't blame the Devs and your greed ruined the game. Sure it is somewhat negative, but its the truth. If you can't accept that it is the truth, then fine. But this thread is to tell people to quit whining, be positive, and give the Devs time.



Calogero -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:35:15)

@ Laces

It's because of PD lol
Believe it or not, I want what's best for the game in general and not just for personal gain.



Laces -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:37:10)

LOL Jatar.

But seriously, this thread although somewhat negative is receiving more positive feedback then negative. Hopefully this willl work but if it doesn't then: Click Here

@Below

Well I don't see many little kids because I don't think they have forum accounts. And there are no bad words or anything and he's been strict not mean.



DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:38:29)

I know is true, but is not the way to say it, little kids are here in forums and when someone say them sometime like that, they feel depressed or I'm not right?



zelemania -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:41:56)

Cannot be arsed to read all that... :( Can anyone paraphrase with fewer words?



Laces -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:42:00)

I HAVE THE MOST BRILLIANT IDEA

To all the people who raged at the release being delayed Click here. You'll instantly quit raging.

@Zel

Basically what he is saying is that The Devs created this game as a small project but with the merger with AE, more AE players came to the game and brought with them expectations of weekly releases. Well the Devs only have one coder and it was too much for them to handle. The players greed for more and more releases and better weapons put to much of a strain on NW and Titan and they couldn't handle it and were blamed for everything. After Frostbane, the players demanded every rare weapon be equal or better then the last rare, and thus enhancements and such were introduced to satisfy people who weren't there when those rares came out. Its the players fault and I agree.

@PD Oh lol sorry. But I don't see what there is to disagree. This makes sense logically and hopefully this is stickied.



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:45:05)

erm... can we get to somewhere relevant in this thread?

Honestly, I'm willing to debate on some of the things in this thread. If you tell me what you disagree with on a specific level, then I'll be able to respond more constructively



Jacksmart -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:45:50)

@Mirage I don't think this is communist...if it was communist there would be on freedom of speech and none of us would be able to speak our minds about this thread.


Anyway Nice point PD.




Callisto -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:52:00)

@PD how about you reply to me? [:)]



Laces -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:55:18)

@Callisto

True you have good points. You might want to edit that part PD. Players are to blame for majority of it but the Devs have a little blame. But not every player is too blame otherwise your right.



Lord Barrius -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 13:59:14)

^ "Minor" point of contention: Communism is an economic system which encourages the even distribution of all wages and property by the government, primarily in the interests of giving every person in the country an equal opportunity to live and thrive, and to better themselves and contribute to society. It's got nothing to do with freedom of speech. :P

@Those talking to me: It's nice that you all have your own opinions on how the forum should be run. Maybe when the forum can demonstrate the ability to be a model community with almost-entirely positive contributions (even if the posts themselves aren't always praising the devs....you don't have to be agreeing with staff all the time to be making positive contributions to the community), we can do things your way. But we already tried doing it your way, and that failed. Hard. We have to do things strictly because right now, there's a lot of people think that this is the worst board on the forum. I don't want to see this community being treated like a laughingstock. You're all valued customers and we don't want people looking down on you and thinking so poorly of you. I'd prefer if, in a few months/years, they were instead talking about how amazing you all are, and how you're a model forum.

That'll be enough forum policy discussion for today, the rest goes to my forum inbox, thanks.



Sageofpeace -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 14:04:20)

There is more Communism in this forum than Germany when Hitler was the Ruler

....I believe this post helps prove my point, rather than denying it.

Research a term before using it improperly, or trying to insult someone with it. Otherwise, you look somewhat silly when people point out that you're using the term incorrectly.

I'm not even going to delete this post. I'm going to leave it up so that everyone can see precisely what sort of behavior I'm talking about. Posts like this are why people look down on you. I don't think that's right. And I'll do what's necessary to make sure that this community becomes the model forum community it's meant to be. Y'all are generally some pretty good people, so let's not allow silly posts like this to become what you're known for. ~LB



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 14:04:31)

quote:

I've read it all and you do make good points but I disagree in some parts.You seem to blame EVERYBODY when in fact,there are people who tried to make a difference.People who gave few excellent ideas,suggestions,who contributed in many good ways.I could name few but I don't think that's necessary.

Their ideas were never listened to,like it meant nothing.How do you explain that?How do you explain the fact that even the good things get ignored?
And even better question,how can we change anything if every good idea we make gets completely ignored?

There is very little communication between players and people responsible for changes.
In conclusion I'd say you're right,it's players fault but not entirely and not everybody's.Majority is the way you described it,immature, selfish,power hungry etc. and those very few who are not cannot fight against it alone.


First off, language... Actual purpose does is not implicit language. Of course I know there are people trying to make things better. However, in the scale of tens of thousands of active players, they amount to a grain of sand in the entire sandbox. Xendran for example has contributed to ED far more than everyone in this community combined. He recognizes the effects of Player pride. This is addressing to those who do not understand. Also, I have yet to see any of their ideas affecting the game because Epicduel would rather continually add things rather than remove and change existing features to solve problems. Most, if not all suggestions prefer to change the entire system rather than just use an added layer of stuff to achieve a fix. I'm not discounting what they've done. No, I'm actually lauding them for their effort, and support them. What I'm saying is that the way ED operates is that it's not goign to desire changing the system. It'll only add because it's convenient that way.

And editing is not necessary.

All the people who make their important changes (for the most part)

Inculcation is what causes the pride of players. People wish to get away from the corrupting influence. Of those who do manage to escape the box of illusion, recognize that it's not the player's fault in whole, but the environment they have been taught to adapt to. In fact, I can almost argue that it's is solely the environment that causes this problem. The players are simply a reflection of what the environment is.

It saddens me - When we see social problems, we only seek to destroy the reflection, rather than change the environment that inherently is the cause for such offensive disposition.



Callisto -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 14:14:25)

quote:

First off, language... Actual purpose does is not implicit language.
Huh?...just cause it's not complicated like yours and easier to understand doesn't make it bad.

You didn't answer any of my questions nor did you discuss anything I said.You named Xendran,he is only one of few who tried to change game for the better.Also just because YOU haven't seen the good ideas and suggestions it doesn't mean they didn't exist.I've seen few very good,some actually focused on adding instead of changing.
Environment is the problem but again,you're blaming everybody which is unreasonable and incorrect.

Again,you just keep going on and on how it's all our fault.Partially true but try answering my questions and discussing the parts I disagree with you next time.



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 14:22:35)

I never you were using bad language. I started my sentence with the sentence language. It does not mean you use bad language, nor do I think you did, nor imply it. And said it's not entirely the player's fault. I dedicated two paragraphs in the OP and in my previous post saying it's more the environment than the player. The players are a reflection. I'm saying because of the environment altering how people act, the players are the medium for change. The Environment influences, and the players follow. The Players only do what their environment tells them to do. It's not inherent at all. It's epi-genetic.

And I can't really say that a small majority has done anything good when, although known to the developers, have not actually changed the game in any sense nor form. And Xendran was an example. I've said specifically FOR EXAMPLE. This means there are more people than him alone doing good. I'm not going to take my time acknowledging all of them.

And as for player communication, there 's a lot more than you think there is. It's all done on secret MSN and Skype Convos between players (well, some that the devs will actually entrust) and Devs that nobody ever pays attention to. Just because it's not public doesn't mean it's not happening.

but for compromise, I'll make the message a little more clear about environment as an agent in relation to player activity.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 14:28:50)

PD man great post and your right the Gamma players did not suddely go "Hey lets all be totaly jerks to everyone we meet." sadly they had to learn from someone and if it wasnt us we still should take blame for not setting a good enough example of kindness for them to follow the path of a nice player.



Jatar The Legend -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 14:52:35)

PD: Lol, communications. Calli's right, communication is poor. One or two skypes with friends doesn't let the Dev's know what we want as a fan base.....

Edited out profanity. ~Syr



Fay Beeee -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 15:24:15)

Thank you for taking the time and effort to make such a comprehensive post.

I am writing this as I think it, so I apologise if it is disjointed.

I do agree with quite a lot of it BUT I, and many, many others have always fought hard to keep and support ED. I am a founder, and very proud of the fact BUT I have never asked for anything other that what we are getting. Admittedly I do find it frustrating sometimes. After all I am human.

IMO the majority of the forum are good people. Of course we have the occasional (if repetitive flamers) but we also have those that try and give constructive criticism with ideas on how to try and solve the problems that arise. Some of the solutions are not feasible but quite a few are very good. All they need are recognition that people are listening. I am taking into account that English is not a lot of players first language and they may have difficulty getting their points across.

I also think that the forum is a very small part of the overall game. So may be, opinions could be gleaned in game as well as on here?

I mean no offence by my comments.



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 16:03:37)

Jatar, I meant as in We the players go on MSN and Skype and discuss it with staff. Not just friends. But you do not need to believe my word. Nor does your language need to be so offensive and inquisitive. You cannot reject on feeling alone.

And Fay bee, I have never made such claim. And what you talk about is a different issue. Also, I observed the ED population for over a month before I made this. The community is extremely homogenous.



frogbones -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 16:04:55)

The original post is invalid on so many fronts that just thinking about rebutting them all makes me weary. But let me just say this: As it pertains to making your point, starting off your "Blame the players, not the devs" assertion with a parable that uses a King and his people as a metaphor for Titan/NW and players of ED is utterly ridiculous. There are zero similarities. Right off the bat, you've failed.

In all actuality, all your parable does is further the belief that the devs live up in their ivory tower and pay no attention to the peasants below. As long as they keep getting paid, why should they care?








PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 16:13:57)

Perhaps you can elaborate on the specific points that you did not agree with? You say that there are multiple flaws, but do not explain on what you specifically do not like.



Callisto -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 16:16:10)

frogbones does have a point...also
quote:

I meant as in We the players go on MSN and Skype and discuss it with staff
-Who does that?How many that are not mods can do that?I'd really like to know who is the normal player than can communicate with titan and nw,since you're calling that acceptable communication between staff and entire community.



Fay Beeee -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 16:25:06)

PD. Like I said at the start. My thread was as I was thinking. To me, I was under the impression I was answering at least part of your thread but I must have been wrong.
I do not usually reply to any in depth threads. Now I know why.




frogbones -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 16:44:39)

You asked for it, so here goes.

quote:

Either way, there are a lot of problems in Epicduel. I don't think that we can blame any single group of people out there.


You don't specify what the problems are, but we can assume you're talking about balance and release delays.
Unless you really are an ED mole, it's easy to understand that these "problems" are 100% because of the Devs. It's rather simple, really: Devs make the game, players play it. Any problem related to mechanics, Balance, or delays is on them, not us. To think otherwise is, like you said, obfuscating the issue.


quote:

Now I don't know about you, but the way this system has been inculcated is inherently player-ist/class-ist. It is inherently made to cause inequality, therefore a mass amount of social problems.


Again, who made the system? The players or the devs? C'mon, this is an easy one.

quote:

We have to understand that the Player's expectations have doubled, but our developing staff has not. Neither have their resources to handle things.


Can you quantify players' expectations? If they have doubled, that's your own perception, one not grounded in any type of scientific study. And that's not even the point. On multiple occasions, they have simply not delivered on their claims. This has nothing to do with staff limitations.

quote:

A lot of this can be solved if many of the balance problems are solved. That side is getting minor progress ...


Ahh, there it is. Balance problems. The core issue of a PvP game. You're so eager to defend the devs that you entirely missed your own point: They aren't fixing balance issues like they should be.


quote:

In all reality, the reason people act as they do is because they were conditioned. They are not inherently responsible for their problems. And no, I'm not dodging their sense of responsibility. I'm not defending them either. The point is that they act as they do now because you made them that way.


This one goes way deeper than I care to delve into. Suffice it to say, this statement symbolizes a lot of what's wrong with the world: The lack of personal resonsibility for one's actions. Blame others, blame others, blame others.

It's not our fault. It's theirs.



Shadronica -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 19:16:45)

@ PD.

First off to answer your discussion in totality is difficult but I will try.

Monkey see monkey do is a fact of human nature and if it wasn't then we would not have learnt anything from our parents when we were babies. Leaving us to be feral animals or more to the point ... dead. ;)

I do not agree that the players are to be held responsible for the greed in this game ... rather that the game itself has nurtured an environment of greed, corruption, comtemptability and the usual things that happen from a corrupt government. (Which also means that only a few are favoured by this system of government.) Its all about exploiting a natural human response to have power and feel important. Sometimes at any cost.

While I do realise that you are endeavouring to ask the players to be more moderate in what they spend and how they behave will help the ED environment I still feel that the government needs to also lead by example.

I personally have never witnessed anything like the corruption and exploitation in any other game on the net. And it mostly all started during Beta days but continued to get worse as we went along with the different implementations that were added. The main culprits were the Enhancements to guns and auxillaries, the war kills, the rarity board, LQ shop and last but not least the introduction of only being able to get the main rares by buying the highest varium packs. All of these are used to gain a maximum feel of power and self importance. There has been little content at all for a non profit community spirit.
Also I have no idea why the ED t-shirts cost more in Heromart.

The majority of good player suggestions or complaints are ignored and yes Titan and NW have re-iterated that they will never delete something they have introduced to the game but they take far too long to fix something that is detrimental.

I have also witnessed a hypocritical stance on there being one set of rules for some players and another for others.

Titan and NW really need to be careful as to who they foster as personal friends as I have been told that one of their friends is usurping his position by blackmailing certain person/people to do his bidding or they are being threatened with being banned.

All this adds up to a less than desirable environment which is mostly beyond any players control.

It is the nature of the Beast.








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