RE: Communal Feeling in ED (Full Version)

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DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:15:55)

quote:

We have to understand that the Player's expectations have doubled, but our developing staff has not. Neither have their resources to handle things.

Nope, we are asking for ''improvements'' and the same features we asked for at beta. What can you say about this?


quote:

In all reality, the reason people act as they do is because they were conditioned. They are not inherently responsible for their problems. And no, I'm not dodging their sense of responsibility. I'm not defending them either. The point is that they act as they do now because you made them that way.

Let me say you is the person's decision to change. E.g: My girlfriend plays with me and breaks my heart. Now I to take vengeance, will do the same to the girl that really loves me? X. This is a really great example and it is a error you will have to regret in the future if you do it.

PD, maybe you're one of the fews along with Jzaanu and all others that have a greater influence at suggestions given to the Devs, but the whole community doens't. This is a lie Devs always say, we love all players the same. WRONG! Their is always a favorite group of players and even in real life, a teacher has a favorite student. You're the clean students and we're are the dirty kids that are your classmates and are being ignored. That's the biggest error they commit at the start. Hope you understand my point of view.



tigura -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:20:32)

I loved this post as soon as I started reading it. But THIS is my favourite part. If you people dont want to read any of this, at least read these few sentences.

quote:

But... to every effect, there is an cause. I don't think that it was anything to do with the Greed of the developers. No. It was far from that. Rather, I'l going to shift my ground and focus to my admonishment not to the staff; But to the players.

When I mean player, I mean YOU. Yes YOU. The Player YOU. You whom are behind that computer/laptop monitor reading this sentence right now.

I'll be truthful and cogent about this: It's the player's fault. Not the Developer's fault.


Read it. Read the whole thing if you want reasons.

@above

quote:

quote:

In all reality, the reason people act as they do is because they were conditioned. They are not inherently responsible for their problems. And no, I'm not dodging their sense of responsibility. I'm not defending them either. The point is that they act as they do now because you made them that way.
Let me say you is the person's decision to change. E.g: My girlfriend plays with me and breaks my heart. Now I to take vengeance, will do the same to the girl that really loves me? X. This is a really great example and it is a error you will have to regret in the future if you do it.

PD, maybe you're one of the fews along with Jzaanu and all others that have a greater influence at suggestions given to the Devs, but the whole community doens't. This is a lie Devs always say, we love all players the same. WRONG! Their is always a favorite group of players and even in real life, a teacher has a favorite student. You're the clean students and we're are the dirty kids that are your classmates and are being ignored. That's the biggest error they commit at the start. Hope you understand my point of view.


Sorry, i dont understand how this has anything to do with PD's post.



DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:23:48)

If you read all Pd's later posts you will understand what I'm saying.



tigura -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:30:21)

Sorry, I've read the whole thing twice. Could you please explain what you mean by saying that PD and JZaanu have a greater influence at suggestions given to tthe devs? Im having trouble figuring out how that second paragraph has anything to do with the rest of the post. You say that the devs are favouring them because they are "clean" and you are "dirty". However, if you worked hard on a game for 10 (or more/less, idk) hours a day and had a community that just verbally harassed you every single day for not doing things on time and working hard (even though other factors influence completion and you ARE working hard), you would obviously have more positive feelings towards those who DONT complain EVERY SINGLE DAY. Of course, that still doesnt have much to do with the rest of the thread. I will read PD's post a third time.



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:39:16)

^^ He's probably talking about the responses I've sent to people in the duration of this thread



DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:40:52)

@Tigura: You misunderstand the ''dirty'' and ''clean'', let me give you another example, you got two options to talk to someone, a really beautiful girl and an old wearing fashion dirty girl. You will choose the first option, don't you? Devs just see the superficial face of the players, they don't look the real nature in it.

Jzaanu, Pd and all the others have been since I was too, but they have a greater interaction since I never had seem them flame/blame the Devs, they give the reason to the Devs and not the players. I do work, I'm 15 years old and I'm recently working in a manga project, my ideas are always received with happiness but the ''vterans'' said to me, hmph you don't have such experience as me or people that doesn't even knows how to draw a circle tell me my drawings are ugly. I put love to all of my drawings and I like a lot to draw. I have received positive and negative feedback but I never said them they're trash or intimidate them, I instead just sat there hearing their opinions and sometimes I realize they got the reason. I know all have a boiling point but we must be strongs and have patience with that kind of persons. Also I'm currenlty the most intelligent guy at my class, and many of other grades try to humillate me and such, but I keep my head up and tell them they which to be me, because if they didn't bothered me, they won't be jealous.
This is a reality and I hope you understand it tigura, life is hard and no one said never life was easy.

PD: Can you reply about my posts? I wanna hear what you think.



tigura -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:48:57)

Well, what you say is correct, however, the criticism and negativity that the devs get every day can be taken as, well, constructive criticism. But after years of harassment and harsh criticism, there comes a time when eventually, you stop taking things as criticism, but as insults and put-downs and such. Lets look at this from titan's perspective. Every day he goes to work and doese the best he can to make the game work. But when he comes home and looks on forums and sees people talking about how bad a job he did, and complaints about things not being on time (even though it was adobe's fault) he will obviously feel negatively about the people who say that. But when he sees other posts from polite respectful people like PD and JZ, then he will come to "favour" (although I think that is a bit strong) them. There is a difference between constructive criticism, and insults and put-downs.

Just read this

quote:

I've read it all and you do make good points but I disagree in some parts.You seem to blame EVERYBODY when in fact,there are people who tried to make a difference.People who gave few excellent ideas,suggestions,who contributed in many good ways.I could name few but I don't think that's necessary.

Their ideas were never listened to,like it meant nothing.How do you explain that?How do you explain the fact that even the good things get ignored?
And even better question,how can we change anything if every good idea we make gets completely ignored?

There is very little communication between players and people responsible for changes.
In conclusion I'd say you're right,it's players fault but not entirely and not everybody's.Majority is the way you described it,immature, selfish,power hungry etc. and those very few who are not cannot fight against it alone.


I agree with the fact that there are players who are positive and DO support the game in a GOOD way.



Jatar The Legend -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 20:55:02)

I don't understand why this game was better in beta, over 1 and a half years ago, than it is now. That's all I'd like to know. I'd like to know why it is that they've been slowing down (Adobe isn't why they've been delaying releases all summer now, is it?), I'd like to know what they can do to stop it, how long it will take...And how WE as a fan base can help other than sitting here, rooting them on, and posting ideas and encouragement. I don't know how that's possible, but I feel pretty useless sitting here watching a game I use to love crumble right in front of my face.



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:02:05)

Ok, first, let me interpret the Parable in the way I intended it to be known...

The King represents the players. The Previous king represents the generation of players before the new generation. The king was the king, so he did stuff. his is a parallel to ED's Player Groups. His deeds are the things players have done in order to get balance messed up - Stat Inflation, Agility, Focus, Stat Reqs, ect. The King did NOT pay attention to anyone but himself, so the game got ruined. In ED, that is now. The Lavish lifestyle is him not caring about the welfare of the kingdom. This is the parallel to the ED players not caring about anyone else but themselves. The Death is people realizing what they've done. But I fear it may be too late now.

@Frogbones: First off, I'll thank you for thoroughly giving your thoughts in response to my question. However, I'd like to correct you on some things...

It is true that the Developers are the ones who bring out change. But let me ask you... How do they make their course of action? They first look and see who's dominating the most via looking at the forums and seeing who's getting the good side or the bad side. When they see that, they know specifically to nerf/buff something instead of random action.

The Developers truly did make the system, but I also said the system is inculcated. That means the system was not to intentionally create huge gaps. Remember that in the beginning (Much throughout ED Alpha and Pre-AE Beta), the system was not as divided as is used to be, in terms of the advantage that 2ndary currencies brought about. Yes, there were Class issues, but that's not the same issue as the discussion at hand. We the players demand power. When we don't, we make posts saying we've been cheated.

When I talk about player expectations, I talk about how much content we wish to have per release.

When I said that a lot can be solved. I didn't mean a majority. I meant as to say there's a lot that balance can solve. That's again a separate issue. If I wanted that side to be the main unifying point, I would've put that into the Balance discussion (As Lord Barrius told me on IRC). But it's not. There are social problems that are solvable by fixing balance. And there's Social problems that can be fixed by realizing that players do influence the much more than people believe we do. Indirectly and Directly. The reason we're not getting features promised since beta is because we overloaded them with demands to change the game. When I mean doubling expectations, I mean we've loaded them with double of what we want and demand for every single release.

And the last statement of yours of not taking responsibility and blaming others... I advice you to look up Dr. Gabor Mate (Physician) and Dr. Robert Sapolsky (NeuroScientist). And yes, both are highly qualified and respected professors in their respective fields.

@cyberbakio ryugan: I'll give you my response

Nowhere in the OP nor any of my responses to other players have I ever scarcely mentioned the Developers picking and choosing whom they like. Not once. Not twice. Not ever. What you talk about is completely irrelevant to the purpose of this thread. Everyone has the ability to make a comprehensive statement on something they don't like. It's just a matter of who wants to take matters into their own hands, or sit on the sidelines and watch stuff happen. And you can always talk to LB to see if your post goes with the guidelines. Over time you learn the lines and figure out what's good within the rules and not within the rules.

@Everyone else:

A main contention that I see is that people think I'm taking it too far when I say it's everyone's fault. If I ever said this statement (Which I never have), I would take it into their meaning:

You fail to recognize the factors behind behavioral patterns adapted from your environment are harmful, and are not trying to alter your harmful behavior nor try to change the environment that causes such patterns. Nor do you endeavor to question yourself nor others on your behavior nor environment. Rather, your conditioned behaviors overtake all logical and holistic systems that should be utilized instead.

I know nobody who defies that. But that's just saying that I have said that. But I have not.



Wraith -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:03:34)

Let me paraphrase this beautiful essay.

The players represent the community. The developers feel to inspiration to work for players that complain no matter how hard they try.

If we improve, the game improve.



DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:13:03)

PD: I never said in my post that you said that, read it carefully, I just did a statement, and with the posts/statements is not always as is good as it is. You're saying that they're free to say something they dislike, that's a wrong rule because back when LB wasn't the head moderator, we were able to talk about varium pricing and I think the rules LB did are really the best for the community. Devs decide that not us, they are themes we can't touch that are call tabus* in my natal language, thinks like this game sucks, or artix sucks and all that kind of stuff. The rules are made for person to follow them and have a better experience.



PD -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:22:15)

That's forum policy, not anything to do with this thread. This is about the Environment in relation to players and their relation to the game. Not how to discuss if there's a double standard or not.

And you did talk about picking and choosing. You mentioned the "clean" and "dirty" clauses, and how the Devs look on certain groups of players rather than the whole. That's pretty much picking and choosing.



Shadronica -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:28:53)

We all need to bear in mind that we do have an exceptional amount of younger people on our forum.

Although most are quite intelligent their opinions are formed impetuously without the years of experience of thinking before acting with haste. This also goes for a few of the older players which there is not one single person on this forum who has not made a post in haste as a knee jerk reaction to a situation. (Moderators and Game Developers included).

Titan and NW and their staff have to realise that this forum and its community is made up of a full cross section of players.

Yes I agree that this forum becomes most ugly at times. But we need to look deeper at the reasons why.

I know why we are having these problems. I see it as plain as the nose on my face.

Surely the latest outburst about the Updates being so slow should have been viewed as a positive by the game developers as Wiseman communicated exactly what the problem was and it served to quell the angry mob. We may have a majority of children here on the forums but they are not stupid. A simple explanation of what was wrong is all that it took. So yes sometimes even the very worse criticism can be viewed as a positive depending on the people on the receiving end. Lesson learnt or not? It all depends ....



DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:32:20)

You said that I said you said you were having a greater interaction and I didn't say that. Pd is the truth and all must accept it.
The relation between the game and the players fail sometimes and it is not our fault neither the devs. The current community has the habit of threating newbs the hard way, that is why they see the game as it is not.
Shadronica: I made a similar point back, telling the little kids they've ruined something makes them unhappy and nver want to get at that, they disgust that kind of things.
Most of the lvl 33 players are above 12 years and they are not inresponsable anymore, they can care about what they say and such but the rest of the players don't, they're inmature.



Goony -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 21:40:19)

This is a falsidical paradox, the list of contradictions will not allow any meaningful discussion due to the misuse of a fictional parable that actually does not support the outcome. What I mean by this is, were the people of this fictional kingdom wrong to kill the king! Because that is not what you are saying later when you say that it's not the developers fault but the players.

You should also review your use of inculcated as it is used way out of context to what i think you are trying to put across to the community and by leaving the final statement as "I wish to stop playing ED and take no part in it's ailing state. At all." is denying the whole discussion.

4/10 Confusing and Illogical...



Lord Barrius -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 23:22:25)

quote:

This is a lie Devs always say, we love all players the same. WRONG! Their is always a favorite group of players and even in real life, a teacher has a favorite student. You're the clean students and we're are the dirty kids that are your classmates and are being ignored. That's the biggest error they commit at the start. Hope you understand my point of view.
As an actual teacher, I can comment on this.

I don't believe in "bad students" or "good students" persay.

Certainly I've had students I liked more than others, and I've had students who make me wish that teachers could still crack knuckles with a ruler like the olden days. But I don't believe any student is just a bad person, and I always feel bad when I see kids getting kicked out of my class for one reason or another because it does feel like a failure. It's something that some teachers grow callous to over time, just as doctors learn not to break down every time they lose a patient, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's ever easy, and it's never easy for me. Certainly, when I ban people, I HATE it. I'm not thrilled when I hit that button. You're welcome to keep believing that I'm some heartless dude who enjoys throwing power around if it makes you all feel better about demeaning me, but there are people out there who know better of me than you do. *shrug* At any rate, there's no reason to hate any student for me, and I want every student of mine to succeed. And every one who doesn't, well, that hurts. A lot.

I don't think it's a matter of being ignored at all. I think you're all acting out in the only way you know how because you FEEL like you're being ignored, and you don't realize that such behavior is not the proper way to go about it. It's always easier to take constructive criticism to heart than demeaning comments, and all the devs are hearing is the latter. Worse, you don't even realize that you're not being constructive, or you think it's fine because they should just "grow up" and "be adults". But civilized adults don't DO the things you're doing. It's a false belief.

Cindy made an excellent point that I think should be noted here: You don't think anything of insulting the devs when you're mad, because "they're adults" which means they should be willing to take all of your harassment. But think about it....would YOU keep working at a job which beat you up 24/7? They don't HAVE to keep making this game, guys, and if you keep discouraging them, they're not going to want to make this game. But no one seems to be thinking about each other's feelings one bit here. Just because we're all adults doesn't mean feelings stop mattering.



Jatar The Legend -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 23:31:00)

LB, to be honest, I thought you were some ill-mannered dude who walked around trolling for no reason but...Thank you for putting it that way. I understand you and wish to apologize for anything I may have said/implied.



Zean Zapple -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/27/2011 23:44:32)

From what I see, people are discouraged because they believe that they aren't at fault. When in reality, every single one of us is a no good troll.


~ZZ



Master Volcon -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 0:49:56)

Honestly can you say the devs are at fault. I think that the player community is just as much, if not more at fault.

They complain and complain then when the devs try to give it too us they complain that they mess it up "this way" or "that way"

Great Post SUP

I hope the ED learns from this :)



Zean Zapple -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 0:52:34)

quote:

Honestly can you say the devs are at fault. I think that the player community is just as much, if not more at fault.

They complain and complain then when the devs try to give it too us they complain that they mess it up "this way" or "that way"

Great Post SUP

I hope the ED learns from this :)


Exactly! If people had never started complaining about balance, it would be pretty good today.



Shadronica -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 1:04:05)

We can dance around the general ill feeling in ED for years to come if that is what you all want.

What is the saying? ... ignorance is bliss. ;)

Take that any way you want.



Cinderella -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 1:52:42)

I want to address several things.

First off, yes. EpicDuel was a student project that Titan and Nightwraith started. And, I think, in some ways we still think of it as that small, close-knit community where we all knew each other irl (for example: I knew Nightwraith in high school, he was a senior when I was a freshman, and I'm currently at the school from which he graduated), and Titan and Nightwraith still had "day jobs" that paid the rent on their apartment. With some of the code things that are "the devs' fault", it's the Titan who was a college kid who wrote a game that could only fit 1000 people. It was THAT Titan who optimized things for a smaller game, but the Titan of today- an employee of a larger indie game company, now an experienced game designer- who must now fix it.

There were also things that we made expensive to prevent people from abusing the feature. Like the War Cannons or Class Change.



Shadronica -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 4:24:42)

Cindy I have no wish at all to look or sound like a harsh, harping and cynical old fool.

But ... I see (we all obviously see) a very good potential with our game.

However, its progress is being hampered by some extreme conditions. I realise that steps are now being made to try to correct them but it really could have been dealt with just a little sooner than later.

I also realise that Titan and Nightwraith have been overwhelmed by the increase of this game and the added burden of high expectations.

Giving this game high cost features only leads to exclusivity and with that elitism.

You see putting an emphasis on these things puts pressure on everyone who plays this game. It should be enjoyed by everyone no matter whether they are high varium players or free to play.

Class changes, enhancements etc. are fine in themselves if the features are lower cost features that we all can enjoy and participate.

Every player, f2p or varium player, should be able to afford to enhance all their weapons yet the f2p players are always disadvantaged here and the first version of "The Gap" posted here several weeks ago explains that. If they save hard and work hard they can enhance one set of weapons just in time for the next lot of weapons to be released. Now that is an eternal battle for them alone let alone being demoralised by a varium player with a huge stat difference.

The reason that some people seem to troll is because they want to feel the game improving but are frustrated because of the limitations that have been set upon the game.

We all can handle some pressure but nobody wants to see anyone stressed unnecessarily. Players, moderators, admins and everyone associated with ED does not need stress.

I have no doubt at all that Titan collapsed into bed after trying to do battle with Flash this past week and I realise that a lot of the community were verging on rioting.

All's good we all survived. ;)



DeathGuard -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 16:28:20)

quote:

As an actual teacher, I can comment on this.

I don't believe in "bad students" or "good students" persay.

Certainly I've had students I liked more than others, and I've had students who make me wish that teachers could still crack knuckles with a ruler like the olden days. But I don't believe any student is just a bad person, and I always feel bad when I see kids getting kicked out of my class for one reason or another because it does feel like a failure. It's something that some teachers grow callous to over time, just as doctors learn not to break down every time they lose a patient, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's ever easy, and it's never easy for me. Certainly, when I ban people, I HATE it. I'm not thrilled when I hit that button. You're welcome to keep believing that I'm some heartless dude who enjoys throwing power around if it makes you all feel better about demeaning me, but there are people out there who know better of me than you do. *shrug* At any rate, there's no reason to hate any student for me, and I want every student of mine to succeed. And every one who doesn't, well, that hurts. A lot.

I don't think it's a matter of being ignored at all. I think you're all acting out in the only way you know how because you FEEL like you're being ignored, and you don't realize that such behavior is not the proper way to go about it. It's always easier to take constructive criticism to heart than demeaning comments, and all the devs are hearing is the latter. Worse, you don't even realize that you're not being constructive, or you think it's fine because they should just "grow up" and "be adults". But civilized adults don't DO the things you're doing. It's a false belief.

Cindy made an excellent point that I think should be noted here: You don't think anything of insulting the devs when you're mad, because "they're adults" which means they should be willing to take all of your harassment. But think about it....would YOU keep working at a job which beat you up 24/7? They don't HAVE to keep making this game, guys, and if you keep discouraging them, they're not going to want to make this game. But no one seems to be thinking about each other's feelings one bit here. Just because we're all adults doesn't mean feelings stop mattering.

Well at first, I see your hidden truth in your post and I agree some of the parts, but I know a friend that is a fellow forumer and he posts many good ideas, but he was a flamer back then and now he's being ignored :/. I won't work at a job hearing that kind of comments, I will close the doors of the company/store/job in their faces because I'll feel stressed. Yea, I understand that. I'm tell you this, my mother works in a security company 16 hours per day, and she always get yelled at people who said their alarm and such apparatus are ruined,destroyed, and all that but she stays calm and try to fix the problem with them, try to calm their anger, because SHE knows she has to work to get payed my private school and all the responsabilites she has. I know the Devs has feelings so my mom does, and sometimes she even cries in the road to home. LB, I was not trying to demean anyone or make feel bad to someone, but I just give an example that at least in my country is seen constantly. I'm not trying to bring this thread down but point out the flaws it has. I received like 1 month and a half a official warning for saying something innapropiate to someone well known here, and I realized it just make me happy for the moment but then unhappiness come up at me. I'm trying to accept everyone's perspective, but is hard, is really hard for me that they don't accept mine as I accept them's.



Joe10112 -> RE: Communal Feeling in ED (8/28/2011 16:45:46)

Just read first post. What a post.

Anyway, I assume that's Titan and Nightwraith?


Point said, what I don't quite care if they say "Okay, we'll release one time every month and sometimes we'll release LQS, or seasonal shops." Fine with me. What I don't like is "This week" pushed to "Next week" pushed AGAIN to the week after. That's what I don't like.



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