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H4ll0w33n -> RE: Broken credit earning system (11/4/2011 20:08:46)
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@Drianx
Credit earning is too low isnt the problem here, its the cost of the items rising at a larger rate than it needs to be. Like i said if you say credits earning is too low and you decide to increase it then it would only help out the weapon costs and enhancements, it would ruin the balenced cost class change, war kills (credits), boosters, bikes, bots, ect.
if you were to say then raise the credit cost of classes, war kills, ect then that adds confusion, lets say you went from level 20-21, you will expect to need 10000 credits for mortar but if it increases it adds hassle to the players to go check on how much they need. This is defaintly a solution but it isnt the best one. Now we say increase credit per level:
the problem with this is that your going to have to spend time finding out how to keep the game progressively more challenging and by not increasing it with too much credits, also pricing of items would be harder because of the fact that every level has a price point where you need to check if its overpriced or under priced. If you decide to just change the item cost but not the credit cost then that is only one category you need to worry about. for example every level the price of weapons increase by 225 then it is pretty easy to find out how much a item costs. If you choose to increase credits it be like:(hypothetical situation) at level one you need 14 credits per fight but next level it will increase by 2 then 4 then 9 then 14 then 3 then 1 then 59, you see where im getting at? it adds confusion and makes the game look less organized and random. my facts proving this will happen is in my first post, where the amount of credits needed for the next level weapon is random.
Raising arcade drops will indeed lead to flooding of credits which then leads to inflation. That is the opposite of what we want unless we can successfully reach equilibrium to where it helps players afford items but not to the point that it becomes excessive.
"Flooding Epicduel with credits isnt a opinion it is a fact because if you raise drop % then you can safely say more people will win therefore more credits will be in the system. If it was a opinion it be somewhat like "If arcade drops increased then it would negatively affect the epicduel economy. The fact that it is going to put more credits into the system is a fact but its how you infer the statement, you can say its positive because it lets players afford things but you can also say its negative because it leads to inflation and that will raise the credit prices of items. Lets say you have 1/100 chance of winning 1000 credits, then after 100 you have 1000 in theory. Then if you increase it to 5/100 chance, you have 5000 credits after 100 battles in theory. Now put this situation into a mass scale. This will defiantly cause ED to have a lot of credits. I proved that it is negative and why it isn't positive, if you want to argue about that point then i suggest you provide some actual data that proves it wont ruin the system. The reason why this is hard to prove is because we dont have all the information we need like how many people use arcade daily and how many prizes are won. You and I cant make accurate arguments about this but we can get close by using numbers to prove it.
I do know the reason is to help afford enhancements and weapons but there are side effects that end up affecting other things and that cant be solved as easily as raising the class change ect by the same amount as the creds because it makes it tedious and less entertaining to keep going back to check all costs of extras.
When i say class change i am not just saying that its the main thing affected and its so important, I am saying that in the future if other features like this is released, it will cause more and more problems because you will have to end up changing the prices for them and as a result more hassle for the players.
On a simple level right now there is:
class change
war kills
thats 2 things players have to go use their time to know what the cost is per level.
Now lets say in the future more features are released then players go from 2 things to more and more and more. If you deny this then you are saying you dont use these features or have never check them out.
When you talk about class change your giving your opinions. Ex, "class change should actually be an opportunity to explore and test other classes" That is your opinion about class change and theres nothing wrong with your opinion but it doesnt prove anything, if you wanted this to be true then everyone must have the same thought as you on this, like " people who use class change is a way for them to have fun, be entertained, or be more effective." and how is this true?, well if you class change to a overpowered build then its more effective its not necessarily fun or entertaining or is it a opportunity to test the class, your just copying the layout of the build and doing what others do. Not everyone actually tests to see if Maul is better than double strike or if bezerker is better than firebolt. " Looking for methods to prevent class change abuse means admitting that class balance is ****" again this is a opinion, Someone may want to prevent class change abuse because it makes people more aware of their choices and adds variety.
quote:
Of course there may be a slight variation from my calculations, but you're denying the obvious. If you read carefully, I've also estimated the credit gain of a good player, with 2:1 wins. So, anyone between a win ratio of 1:1 and 2:1 is suffering from lacking credits. Does that interval cover your exceptions?
You identified the problem with average-good players not having enough credits but you didnt provide proof or substantial evidence that your solution works while i have. I am not denying the obvious, what you proved and wanted a discussion on was how to go about solving the problem of credit earnings. You didnt prove to me that raising credits will end up being a more beneficial solution with math and facts.
quote:
I expect you to say next that anyone has a chance to win arcade jackpot every single turn. Don't say it, because it is stupid.
you expected wrong :P
@BasicBall
quote:
if you leave out things like credits from deaths, credits from beating higher levels, credits you get at the start of the game, credits earned from missions, credits earned from the arcade,...
sure, you'll have an easy time calculating, you'll also have highly inaccurate results.
therefore, your results arn't trustworthy
I cannot count death credits because there are npc's in the game, unless you have data showing me how many npc has been fought and how many wins/deaths there were, I cant prove that because the game doesnt keep track of that to that extent. I cant count credits earned from beating higher levels because I dont know the exact win % of that and to find that you can go pm titan if it even keeps track of that data. Some people may not choose to do missions or arcades so I cannot include those either. My results arent highly inaccurate, it is as accurate as you can get under my circumstances, if you wanted a accurate reading you can go and ask titan for the total wins, deaths, players of every level challenged to 5 level range, amount of credits earned from missions, arcade, sold items, ect. This is how you would get a accurate reading, but it isnt possible because data isnt tracked to that certain extent. If you want to prove my results to be untrustworthy then you need to provide data claiming that it is, not just empty statements. The problem with this is that the data you provide has to include all the factors stated above or you cant prove my results inaccurate because mine were under specific situations. You can make it more accurate by going through all items of all levels and finding the average then going with wins and death credits gained of each level though if you wanted to.
@...
quote:
By my calcullations, as soon as you are level 25 (so at the beginning of the level, not at the end), you have right about 25468 credits if you have a 1/1 win record. 19656 are from wins, 702 from the arcade and 5110 from misions and starting cred at the beginning of the game.
in my calculations, it takes 468 wins (so 936 total fights)
quote:
OK, subtract those 5110 credits from missions that I did not count, and we're about there; which makes us both untrustworthy eh? :D You cant say you have about 25468 credits because unless you know exactly how many people from levels 1-25 do missions, arcade, ect. then will you because to make that claim.
@Basicball
Im just reviewing 50% spreadsheet.
About your calculations:
For the exp: you put:
1 win=22
2 win=33
3 win=66
Now this is inaccurate because in your formula you said:
12+7+3= 22exp
You cannot state the 3 (unless you want a inaccurate result) because if you fight the same level or below you just get the 12 and on average it is defiantly the fact that you wont be fighting a higher level from level 1-33. If you cannot find the data for it then leave it out. To find the data you would need to know how many population of each level are there and calculate the probability of each possible opponent you will fight then find the average exp per win.
Just include
12+7 for a accurate reading.
same with credits.
About the arcade, you will get a average of ___(cannot state because % of all item drop are unknown) credits per arcade reward. the average never changes. In a 1:1 state you will earn a reward in theory every 80 fights because:
5 wins you will get 5 deaths<--5 wins for 5 token
4 wins you will get 4 deaths<--Arcade 25% drop
Below assumes you lose the first fight if you end up winning the first fight the 1:1 ratio doesnt work for arcade because it would be 5 wins to 4 deaths=1 arcade which is not a 1:1 win rate.
1. 10 fights=5 wins 5 deaths(die,win,die,win,die,win,die,win,die,win)
2. Arcade 1 fight=1 win
3. 8 fights=4 wins 4 deaths (die,win,die,win,die,win,die, win)
4. Arcade 1=fight 1 deaths
repeat that 3 more times and you have: 80 fights you will get 1 reward. So to be accurate in your spreadsheet you would have re-calculate it so it matches what you know, otherwise it is inaccurate in because you dont have the % of arcade drop which is why on average it is not 60 (unless you have asked titan for the info) and you cant have a average of 15 cred per arcade fight in the actual table because it wont reflect the true value of the total cred per win.
ex.
yours:
win 1 = 1.5 cred ,,, total cred per win = 1.5
win 6 = 9 cred ,,, total cred per win = 9
adjusted:
win 1 = 0 cred ,,, total cred per win = 0
win 6 = _ cred (cannot state average as % not provided) ,,, total cred per win = _
With the column of total cred from mission and total creds per win it is flawed at the beginning because you dont start out with 5110 (obviously) you need to actually finish the mission to get those credits for example:
hypothetical mission
kill 4 city guards (level 1) to get 500 credits
so at:
win 1=32
win 2=64
win 3=96
win 4=128+500
so at win 4 would you have that added credits.
So in summary: Only put what you know or put it in a very general situation because putting data which you don't know makes the results incredibly linear. Also making it general (Ex. Wins only, Deaths only) is a lot easier to relate to the real stats.
ANYWAYS: this is going to be my last post in my topic, i already stated my position and if you disagree its fine. Just learn that you should think less linear and more open to others solutions. Also learn that you should take into account all the ACTUAL facts before making your decision on whats right. Besides that we're all discussing for the same thing, affordable weapons and enhancements so instead of saying that its wrong, say its not as effective and give critism on how it can be better so in the end all idea's benefit us.
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