The Cycle of Balance Delays. (Full Version)

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Remorse -> The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 4:30:50)

This is NOT a post about balance sugestions or disccsion rather a showing of balance delays and changes already made.
To start this post I am posting a history of Balance proposels starting with:

quote:

September 08, 2011
Balance Changes
Mages should find that their builds are more versatile now, and sword-wielding mages no longer have such a big percentage of their skill trees blocked off. Plasma Rain and Bludgeon no longer require staffs. This should prove to be a significant buff to the mage classes.

Effect: Persoannly I liked this balance update yet It failed to Fix the main cause for mages being weak and every other class TLMS...
and practically had no effect on slowing complaints about TLMs in forums.
Change to TLMs: Nill
quote:

September 30, 2011
Achieving Balance
I don’t want to get into TOO many specifics, since we already know that the next balance updates won’t be ready for Friday. But, we’ve confirmed adjustments to how Field Medic and other skills will work, and how some skills will synergize with one another. Balance updates require extensive testing, so please be patient as we continue to build.

Effect: Slowed complaints about TLMs in froums a fair amount however Counter complaints about heal being changed were followed.
Change to TLMs: Nill yet as the balance wasnt realesed this week. When it was evetually released it had a good change for TLMs but at a very high cost alot of other builds were destryed as a result.
quote:

October 05, 2011
Balance updates are still being built and tested, so I’m not sure if we’ll have them for Friday. One thing I’ll confirm (that’s been going around as a rumor) is that Field Medic will be getting an overhaul, and the Tactical Mercenary class will also be getting an overhaul. I know that this will upset some of our players (especially those who play as Tactical Mercenaries), but it really isn’t fair to players to have the entire game overrun with a single, very powerful class.

Effect: Basically stoped most complaints about TLMs anf provided alot with false hope. (I was fooled)
Change to TLMs: Nill Not yet released.
Was it released the week occuring: No.
quote:

October 13, 2011
We’ll be continuing with balance updates, including a slight revamp to the Tactical Mercenary skill tree in the coming weeks. I know many of our players were upset by the addition of requirements to the Tactical Mercenary skill tree, but when 40% of high level players are playing as one class, and defenses of the class reveal that there are only a handful of highly-specific builds that can defeat one build of the class (while being completely weak to any other build the class can put together), there’s something wrong with the class. Which class one choses should not determine the winner before the battle has even begun.

Effect: This quote almost stopped all complaints as it has given alot of people Hope for recent change but did it happen....No.
Change: Small requirments which had basically no impact as it did not change what makes the class Oped.
Wat it released: No.
quote:

October 26, 2011

Change: No mention of balance changes despite their insperational speech in past Design Notes.

Which brings us now to the current time.
No metnion further of balance changes sure thier is promises of change but it seems as soon as complaints stop in forums so to does the mention of balance changes or evidence that the have been workin on it, to me they're acting as if nothing has happened.

WHY did i post this, I wanted to show what has happened with balance changes recently and to show that if you are one thinking, "hey Dont complain changes will occur soon"
Well I doubt it, My hope however is that this topic (however long it lasts) Will show people that complaining isn't pointless we as players and many money spenders should have the right to complain for the obviously needed DECENT BALANCE CHANGES. NO more requirments!

The game is not fair and it doesnt take a genouis to relaise that.
If your someone who doesnt agree and think heck I can beat TLMs IDC if nothing happns well that is just slefish isnt it cause talk to many people and You'll find that we are struggling, struggling to have a chance with them no matter how simple the build people without and in somecases without much skill are abusing the game and pratcially ruining it and in all game modes.

Still don't agree, Pherhaps your stubborn or maybe you simply dont like seeing the obvious when it slapes you in the face.







RageSoul -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 4:47:01)

I have to agree with you Remorse , since that TLM is still not yet fixed .



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 4:59:04)

TY^



Dendavex -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 5:19:52)

TLM is OPED
but lets face it complaining and arguing isn't gonna nerf them any faster? If you dont know tlm is oped your a sheep thats flocks all the time
but one thign that bugs me [:'(] is that you guys are getting too repetitive the devs know what to do and they dont need you telling them how to run their own game besides they created it they need the wrong (most of the time) and the good (sometimes)



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 5:52:06)

^Agreed

But complaining does make it faster, Clear evidence is what I provided, Each time they mentioned balance changes or made some sort of attempt (however uneffective it was) There was alot of disccusions and complaits about it and before hand, so yes complaining does make it faster NOT THAT I WONT TO if i could avoid it I would actuly rather not complain but hey nothing recent is being done so I might as well try.

Wanna know why a probabal reason for the lack of balance mentions in last couple of design notes even when they said they would..... Isnt it coeinsidental that alot of the complaning has haulted as of people compalining about complaints (your a clear example of this dandevex) this is provivded by players False hope given to us that their will be decent changes soon....................................................................................................................... (thats how long their soon is.)

Coeinsedence I think not.





Calogero -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:00:21)

quote:

But complaining does make it faster


With respect, I have to disagree... We've been complaining about tact merc for hell I know how long
and to this day forward pretty much nothing got done to the class itself.

Talk about knowing your priorities...

Should we stop complaining? Never
but in the end, they'll postpone it as much as possible seeing them messing up = biggest amount of players Tact merc

just a shame that the Non Tacts have to deal with the consequences



TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:03:16)

I agree lets nerf tlm faster so the noob nerf demanders will shut their mouth, you guys think if tlm gets nerf you will win more but its not gonna be like that, another class will take its place.

Now i want to explain what i mean by saying the noob nerf demanders will shut their mouth:

This happend before(before new classes), Str mercs was doing 2 hit kills with +140 str and all ppl were hating them(just like tlm) later they get what they wanted str merc nerfed and str BH took its place but no one could dare to say str BH is become oped cause the noob nerf demanders would seem like asking nerf for every other class than them selves.

The problem is str BH became 2x more oped than str Merc but the ppl on forum couldn't dare to complain with 4-5 threads in a day like they did for str merc.Its also same now if str tlm is oped than str BH was 2x more oped but no one could dare to demand another nerf for another class.

So if TLM nerf will make the noob nerf demanders shut their mouth, lets make it more quick cause another class will be stronger than others and these ppl again cant dare to demand another nerf.



axiel -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:03:32)

tlm are very Opn in my opinion because if they get one form of luck its just to hard to win them.. especially the str tlm going 1st 100% of the time.. it seems that they haven't been nerfed at all but in my oppinion mage got nerfed more them tlm because the feald medic was very important to a mage... so mages are pretty dead now.. on the other hand tlm still can use a str build and a tank build..
so what im saying is help the mages heal and the other classes because debuffing a heal doesn't solve anything, tlm have other options. and everyone knows why tlm are so Opn ... reroute + hybird = OWNED... when i was a mage and vsed support tlm or any sort of tlm i owned most of them A LOT.... because i could heal... even though they have hybird and reroute and a better heal i won them a lot.. because im a good mage.. its all about skill though this change is feald medic ticed me off and i never wanted to change class but i just hated what they done to mage so i changed into bounty which is based all on str or defence .. so i get fast wins and no worry about support but now i suffering from my noob weps *techmage/support(sword)* doesn't work well on bounty.... plz fix it

DJ ~ this did not change a thing about tlm and destroyed mages so if your trying to nerf something nerf the right class plz !!



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:04:19)

@andy, ah but andy
At leasts their have been atempts and verification they they notice the problem.
Imagine if we hadndt at all....
The proberly wouldnt even know TLMs were oped.

@ Turkish

OMG you completely right (sarcsim) It not like all the Oped classes in the past had a weakness (sarcasim) Its not like we could kill them with our barins eg. emp them... (sarcasim) its not like TLMs have an anti counter for practically anything (sarcasim) its not like TLMs take up 40 % of the pop (proved by cinderella) most of which are low levels finding this game quite easy for some reason (sarcasim).

Why dont you accept that Maybe if an oped build does follow at least it can be beatin by smart staregies rather then having to rely on luck.
I would actuly beg for a diffrent class to be Oped i would love it because It would be simple to counter.

Oh and I will win more infact everyone with brains will win more because all the nobrainer TLM builds might actuly require some brains to beat people with brains :P.....mmm brains




Calogero -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:05:52)

quote:

you guys think if tlm gets nerf you will win more but its not gonna be like that, another class will take its place.


offcourse a new class will be OP but that class will never be that rediculously Overpowered as Tact Merc...



TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:26:41)

@Remorse

What was the weakness of str BH before the new classes ? answer is none :P , i was winning ppl more than tlm also i was killing faster than tlm

quote:

Why dont you accept that Maybe if an oped build does follow at least it can be beatin by smart staregies rather then having to rely on luck

If it can be beaten by "smart strategies" than that show build is not oped, also that shows build is not working so technically that build is uped.

And can you explain the "smart strategy" pls, 5 focus? support abuse? if using emp skill and spaming attacks is so smart than a 3 year old player can be smarter than everybody.
I dont think you have the right to say this is smart or this is stupid strategy, i think winner is always used the right strategy (without luck factor)

Did you ever thought your strategy isnt that much smart?



Algorithm -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:33:24)

Yo Turkish weren't you a mage O.o, why'd you change?
spoiler:

Exactly.


Remember this Post, ah rings a bell... That post pretty much sums up why your a TlM lolz not like I am gonna waste my time explaining it to you, Remorse did a great job on that.



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:33:26)

well TBH str BH was (and still is lol) OP

back then str BH was always 95%+
heck there were time i went 98%-99% with str bh.

however the old two turn kill str merc was always 80%-85% sometimes 90 if u played at a slower rate and npced more.
and yet people QQed and whined about str merc being able to two turn but getting 80% (and 80%85% for pros, for people who copied builds and had bad items it was usually 65%-80%, and we're talking full variums) while str BH would get the same win speed as str merc but at a much higher %. and they still said str merc was OP -.-
when it really wasn't because if u put str merc vs str bh str BH won 70%-80% of the time against each other back then

quote:

Yo Turkish weren't you a mage O.o, why'd you change?

lets see, i believe it was str BH whooping tech mages back then.

i use to be a mage to, and went to str BH when frostbites came out.



Shadow Rouger -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:36:27)

And Blood Mage, WTH, No one uses supercharge so replace it with assimilation, so I can stop TLM and double strike etc

As for TLM, They're fine, just what they have isn't fair
They should make these changes to TLM.

Maul = Stun Grenade
Atom Smasher = Assimilation (Make assimilation allowed for swords)
Artillery Strike = Multi Shot
Reroute = Deadly Aim



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:37:07)

@turkish
Str BH can be beatin with intnim, asim,atom smash, emp,reflex boost,defence matrix, High def,phiscal armour.

My strtegy for str BH was, if they started and smoked Reflex, then smoke high blocks, heal. etc. If I started EMP if it took both smoke and mascre if not robot reflex.

Since Im stuck with my build cause of lack of wepons gear and varium then I suppose It could be my strtegy however strangly enough alot of my friends that are mages (eg. memory) also think the same why I do. Also alot of cyber hunter, blood mages and normal mercs would aslo agree.


And Your thoery for counters is sorta wrong often their have been counter for builds not very known or popular or maybe hard to execute or maybe required certain wepons which could beat the Oped builds. And in alot of cases this is what has happned yet For TLMs it is extremely hard.

@Goldslayer

I do agree with you, str BH are a great build and are borderline OP but You must agree with me when I say that its because its harder to use Str BH and get a High win % that is the reason why so many people dont use it. I think youl find that the pople with high win% mostly NPC and are epercinced enough to pull it off eg donnamatrix.

What makes TLMs a problem is that the frequency of the players that use them and the uncounterable combos, and the fact theat alot of people who hit 30ish switch to STR TLM buy varium and get the classic gear and add to the rest of them but whos to blame them if they get beatin by them constatntly of coarse they would want to change to them.



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:45:05)

quote:

Str BH can be beatin with intnim, asim,atom smash, emp,reflex boost,defence matrix, High def,phiscal armour.

Intim - assault robot like i always did. i still beat support mercs.

asim - i always carried 10 extra energy just incase of asim and also for an extra cheapshot.

atom smash - it would rarely hit because str Bh blocked alot back then. without energy no class/build would be good, it pretty much an
obvious that doesn't need to be explained.

Reflex - i had focus BH using reflex back then, it still didn't stop me from stomping his face into the dirt.

defense matrix - i made a criss cross strategy for this, basically u dont use smoke until the mage uses DM, and when he uses DM u use gun energy damage. then u smoke the turn after, by the time DM is down, ur massacre is ready to go with a fully weak mage with little defense. and this strategy worked every time.

High def - well no crap if u had enough def to stop str Bh then u definetly stop str tlm.
either way high def were some what of a challenge back then but still would get defeated by my cheapshots and rage.
(pro tip never use mass on huge defense, its a waste. instead save energy for another smoke.)

physical armor - u might aswell call this high def, except here ur even more weaker towards energy.



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:48:32)

^SO are you saying that alot of the ED pop can pull this off like alot of new lvl 30 who switch to TLM, I think not , where as STR TLMs is so much easier for them and they are getting to high win % for what they deserve.

And also answer me this golslayer if STR as soo good and that you are SOO good at them then why arnt you one??



TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:51:16)

quote:

Yo Turkish weren't you a mage O.o, why'd you change?


Mage has slow gameplay, if i stayed as mage i would have around 30k wins not 38k

also im not saying tlm is not stronger than others but its not oped, oped means other classes cant win the oped class(heallooper mage , supp tlm was oped) the other nerfed classes was not oped



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:52:02)

quote:

SO are you saying that alot of the ED pop can pull this off like alot of new lvl 30 who switch to TLM, I think not , where as STR TLMs is so much easier for them and they are getting to high win % for what they deserve.

lol anyone could use str BH back then.
heck u could have a str BH made out of third rate items and still go 90%-95% when the items were nowhere near full lvl gear capacity.
for str tlm u need delta maul, machine blaster/frostbolt

ohh wait now that i remember even non varium str BH were beating the crap out of others going 85%-90%

dont believe me? ask Zakalin he's a str Bh non var emperor (also 6 stars)



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 6:56:08)

I diasagree Turkish,

I think its more oped if your stronger in general. EG. Have better skills, When lowlevels go it and gget high%, when over 40% of the pop goes one class.

If you get high win %s It likely the bulk of the battlefield cant counter you but this doesnt mean it cant be countered.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 7:02:38)

^if you have 96-99 % , that means you only lose against the same build of you.(heallooper mage - supp tlm) but str tlm got 91-93%(the pro ones with best weapons) that means we lose against other classes so its a strong build but no oped.



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 7:29:45)

^Or because luck influeences them more, plus goldslayer admited he gets 95-96% and he also said it was the same when he was a str BH :O


But your right that doesnt make them oped, the fact they cant be countered without luck does :O



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 7:59:45)

quote:

plus goldslayer admited he gets 95-96% and he also said it was the same when he was a str BH :O

that doesn't mean anything tho. u seem to be forgetting that i play with strategy. unlike most tlms.
i fight alot of tlms aswell, ur not only one however if i didn't use strategy i would be on equal grounds as them and get the usualy % a str tlm gets 80%-85%-90%

however because i use strategy im able to get 95%+
but just because I can do 95%+ doesn't mean the class is Op or that the rest of ED gets 95%+

because u might be able to copy my build, however u wont be able to copy my strategy.
and actually in my past battles recently, i been loosing more to other classes than i have against TLMs.

so dont judge an entire class by what 1 person can do.
cause if u do, then every class is OP because everyone is capable of using it well.

and yes i did get 95%+ with str BH last time i was str BH (about 2 weeks ago)



Remorse -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 8:04:52)

You said exactly why TLMS are oped and why BH are not in that one paragraph.....

quote:

usualy % a str tlm gets 80%-85%-90%

That is exactly why they are oped, Everyone and I mean everyone who can reach aproximatley lvl 30 can get a high win % with str TLMs and thats why a million people go them and that why they are OP,

Any other builds without strtegy would get no way near that %s in terms on average players.

Then you say.
so dont judge an entire class by what 1 person can do.
cause if u do, then every class is OP because everyone is capable of using it well.


thats exactly why STR BH arent as oped as you say they are because you judgeing them by what one or a select few can do, yet you dont see the average joe lvl 30 with varium stuff get 80-90% win ratios as a str BH.

If we were only talking about smart people or people"with strategy" like you say then heck TLMs wont be that Oped unfotunately too many average players abuse this and it is unfair for other average players maybe you should think how they feel for once instead of how you feel in terms of TLMs.



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Cycle of Balance Delays. (11/5/2011 8:26:16)

quote:

You said exactly why TLMS are oped and why BH are not in that one paragraph.....

again remorse twisting my words.
u said were ingame and said tlms are OP. and then i said "thats why there are so many of them" however it wasn't a reply to what u said.
when i said thats why there are so many i meant that the items that are out right now is the reason why there are many tlms.
because people can join now get lvl 30 and with encumberance have the higher lvl gear thats good for tlm

but thats not because the class is "OP"
its because of the fact that people can copy builds. and the items that are out during that time.
there is alot of build copying these days. and if u copy the build of someone who made a good build, and then that build spreads around like a disease then more people will join in and use that build if the items allow it.

and thats what u dont understand.

quote:

thats exactly why STR BH arent as oped as you say they are because you judgeing them by what one or a select few can do, yet you dont see the average joe lvl 30 with varium stuff get 80-90% win ratios as a str BH.


i wasn't judging str Bh by what 1 person could do. i could a high%
however i was judging by what it did as a group.
everyone who used that build at the time was getting 95%+
now with tlm u dont see many going over 95%+ that much.

lets look at today's board shall we.
basoomti - a str tlm not even 85%
Donna matrix - a bh and real close to 95%
gansterzone... - str tlm 97% and dropping (he also brainwashed. and tbh his build doesn't seem like its capable of that % when his stats aren't even placed right)
xx master blast xx - tech mage 88%
LordC - bounty hunter 95%+
wiseman - bounty hunter 89.7%
crazy t.. - tlm 85%
deathnightmare - tech mage 95%+
Comicalbiker - tlm 92%
.the virus. - tlm 86.5%

these are just some examples
now do u see those tlms? how many of those are passed 90%? or 95%

my point is, tlm isn't as OPed as people claim it is.
back then u could have a player with third rate items use a str BH build and get 90%
good luck doing with tlm and third rate items.

quote:

yet you dont see the average joe lvl 30 with varium stuff get 80-90% win ratios as a str BH.

from what i remember i was talking about lvl cap players, it was u who brought lower lvls into it.



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