RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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psycho009 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/6/2012 22:01:32)

give bm an energy builder like the 2 other classes that doesnt cost ep




Nexus... -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/6/2012 23:52:47)

I posted this in the General Discussion and it got locked, so I am reposting it here. Therefore a few things may be out of context, but please feel free to read, post, and comment on it anyway.


Blood Mage: The Dilemma

---------------------


Alright everyone, this could be my longest post yet, but I hope you stick around to read it, because it really matters to me and all of the other Blood Mages out there.

First of all I would like to state a few things. This is not a balance suggestion, it is a balance discussion. I know there is a thread designated for balance already, but feel it is absolutely necessary that everyone see this. Secondly, this is not a flame or hate thread, I do not intend to criticize (and don't believe I do). Therefore I will ask that everyone remain composed, and constructive :)

Lets get this started. As you may have already seen, I am a Blood Mage, I have been for about a month now. Blood Mage is actually an okay class, with a lot of potential. This being said, it has been neglected, and many find it on the bottom of there list when comparing classes. Those who consistently play Blood Mage are some of the best players we have, as it is one of the hardest classes to use, and requires a great amount of innovation when selecting a build.

Mercenary

Lately I have seen many people also listing Mercenary (the original)as one of the worst classes around, but let me make something very clear. Before class evolutions, Mercenary was on top, and afterwards nothing really changed. Yes, some of the changes to TLM have been reflected on Mercenary, weakening it a bit, but really there havn't been many changes to the class at all since the beginning of Delta. I think the reason why people see Mercenary as "underpowered", is because Tactical Mercenary is the most abused class this game has ever seen. While Mercenary is definitely not on top any longer, I do not think it is horrible either. In fact I am willing to say that it is still in par with the 2 other original classes, Tech Mage and Bounty Hunter.


So what does this have to do with anything? Mercenary shares two of the same skills with Blood Mage, as well as the physical counterpart to plasma cannon. However, the two classes are completely different in terms of playing style and build type, because of one thing. Hybrid Armor. Hybrid is widely considered to be one of the top 3 passives, and to many is considered the strongest passive ever. Since Mercenary almost automatically gets a +12 bonus to either energy/defense, the class behind it (TLM, Merc) is able to withstand a huge amount of damage. Because of this, Mercenary is adequately outfitted with Intimidate, a non-defense stealing debuff.

Intimidate

While Intimidate is not a weak debuff (no pun intended), it has no real offensive value. Where debuffs such as Smoke and Malfunction both have an offensive and defensive bonus, Intimidate is entirely defensive by nature. While this is fine for a class such as Mercenary (which can take large amounts of damage due to Hybrid Armor), Blood Mage hasneither an offensive debuff, or a defensive passive. While bloodlust could be considered an defensive passive because it regenerates health, the means by which the regeneration occurs is solely based upon damage output (offense). As I stated, I have nothing against Intimidate, nor do I have anything against bloodlust. This being said, I believe together the two form the worst core passive/debuff combination in the game. Yes, Deadly Aim does add towards bloodlust that much more, but even with a MAX Deadly Aim and MAX bloodlust (a very rare combination), the added HP is -- (.23*10)--, which adds a total of 2 health per sidearm turn.

Berzerker

So what is the biggest issue with giving Blood Mage an offensive debuff? It could be extensively abused beyond compare. A one turn cooldown on Berzerker means the would be available in a faster manner then any other major damage dealer, and a lower energy cost would mean it could be used more then once per game. This is why Blood Mage never got the offensive debuff it needed; its combination with berzerker would have been far to powerful. Skills such as Massacre (which can do more damage then berzerker) are given a three turn cooldown and massive energy requirement (not to mention stat requirement.) So did I just disprove my own point? No, just because there a reason why they didn't give it to us, does not mean there isn't still a problem. In fact, I am sure that if Blood Mage does not get its offensive debuff or defensive passive, it will be seeing its darkest days yet (considering its announced changes).


Defense Mechanisms

Aside from the basic class mechanic problem outlined above, recently *announced* changes will also contribute towards what I consider a "loss for the class". Currently, Fireball is a rarely used skill, and while I acknowledge its buff, its practicality still remains sub par at best, with the amount of defense based hybrid armors running about in the form of Tactical Mercenary. Yet, the real problem I have with the coming balance update is Energy Shield. Currently, Blood Mage contains two buffs which directly impact stats; Reflex Boost and Technician. This not only helps with defensive measures, but also with the effectiveness of skills. Plasma Cannon and Plasma Rain are both effected by technology, and are both the least used skills on the Blood Mage tree in terms of level cap builds (majority of the player base). This being said, the only valid reason why one would use either of these skills is if they could enhance there effect using another skills, said skill being Technician.


The Energy Crisis

Well, I know what you are thinking right now. Firstly, "when is this going to end", the answer being "Soon", and secondly, there MUST be a better reason for the hatred towards energy shield, and its intended implementation on Blood Mage. There is. As Energy Shield implies, it costs boosts your "energy" resistance. However, it also costs energy! So does technician though doesn't it, so whats the big deal? The big deal is that Energy Shield starts at 1 more energy than technician and increases by twofold where Technician only increases by 1. Because Blood Mage has no means by which to recover energy -- other than Reflex Boost, which doesn't count because it wastes as much, if not more energy then it regenerates -- every EP (Energy Point) counts more then it would with any of the other classes. But there is more! Technician increases with Dexterity, a stat which is vital to hitting your opponent, and therefore a necessity in almost every strength based build. This makes Technician powerful enough to negate pretty much any Malfunction, unless your opponent has an has an extremely high support stat. Furthermore, Technician lasts 1 turn longer than Energy Shield, yet another reason why it is better suited for Blood Mage (as it adds towards that defensive passive it is lacking). To further aggravate the situation, Energy Shield gets stronger via support, a stat that a Blood Mage will rarely use. So Energy Shield will end up giving roughly the same amount of resistance as technician would have (on a normal Blood Mage build), while not improving any set stat or skill, and also requiring a good 25% more energy per use (energy being vital beyond compare to a Blood Mage).


The Energy Crisis II

I would also like to point out that Blood Mage is also the ONLY class that is currently unable to take any of its opponents energy. This means that the class must be extremely quick about taking its opponents health, something that it is unable to do without that offensive debuff. This makes a Blood Mage's energy even more vital, as it must commit a maximum amount of damage in a minimum amount of time in order to stop skills like Supercharge and Massacre from taking their massive toll.


Conclusion

I think that about wraps this up. Blood Mage remains unique in that it doesn't have many of the things that the other classes do. While Cyber Hunter will receive its long awaited second passive (and rightly so), putting it on par with the rest of the classes, Blood Mage has yet to receive a defensive passive, or offensive debuff, either of which would dramatically increase its playability and build options. Furthermore, we now see that Energy Shield will take a larger toll then at first glance, biting into a Blood Mages already coveted energy pool, and decreasing the effectiveness of its weakest skills. I really do like this class, and as I have already said, I think those who play Blood Mage are some of the best we have. Unlike other classes, Blood Mage currently takes quite a bit of thought and skill to play. However, there comes a point where no amount of skill can compete with the further evolved skill trees that represent the other classes. I hope Wiseman and Ashari see this, as it was intended for them, not as a slap in the face, but as a something that is hopefully thought provoking.


I hope you have learned something, or have found clarification in the words written above.


If you have reached this point, congratulations, you are almost done.


Thanks For Reading



Prophet
*Sorry of the typos
*Please do not flame




Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 1:13:26)

^^Just had a whirl as a Bloodmage, wow you have some nice skills that improve with dexterity!

Currently the most abused stat in the game :p

Here's the build

A nice +21 resistance energy shield, with reflex boost I get 64 damage for 20 energy and a 30% chance to stun from overload. It's pretty fun too play as well :)




theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 4:47:51)

This balance only buffs Cyber Hunters. Still no change to Blood Mages. Now, both Cybers and Tacticals are Oped compared to Blood Mages because of the bonus Defense/Resistance.




Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 4:51:28)

As a blood mage since its inception... I agree with much of what Nexus is saying about this class.
The energy shield change does not bug me so much and my weaps do have a support requirement,
so I can't really abuse stats. The biggest problem is picking the ONE big damage skill I can afford to
use:

Berserker is a typical high damage skill for blood mages...costs alot...can be damaging, but unlike
massacre, it can be blocked, and it's blocked far too often. There goes 27 - 39+ of energy FOR
NOTHING... and since the reduced warm up, we can be blocked even earlier now. Try putting
all your eggs in that basket...

So how about overload or plasma rain...it''s fine if you dont mind sacrificing your defenses and dying
in round 2 of a 2v2 match...

So how about fireball? ...lame. I guess it would be ok if the majority of players didn't have hybrid or
"mineral" armor putting their defense in the 40's. 20 damage is hardly the "big" skill...

...and just to be slightly unbiased, plasma cannon is OK.

...and speaking of mineral armor - Cinderella writes "reduces inherent tankiness of TLM" ...really?
how exactly does this occur? By lowering hybrid by 1 point? So instead of 43 defense, they have 42?
1 in 100 TLM's change their armor during a battle. Their resistance is already mid 30's thanks to the
hybrid/mineral armor providing all the extra points for tech. I feel real sorry for that 1 guy who is getting
nerfed... How you could even consider it a nerf in the first place is beyond me.

The BEST thing to come out of this update has been that I don't seem to have to fight 2 level 34
tank mercs 8 out of 10 times. After 3 weeks of hell, this is a welcome change... I think we have won
almost as much as we've lost tonight :)




Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 7:41:32)

I have a suggestion for two skills that might help Mercs and Bloodmages...

Mercs - instead of the merc bloodshield using the players own health have the skill use the opponents health to create the shield, an attack that is blockable, builds rage and also drop the effect turns to 4.

Bloodmages - Instead of the energy shield using the players own energy have it steal the opponents energy to create the shield, similar to atom smasher in that it is blockable and non rage building.

Might help those classes a bit, would take a bit of work to build and at this stage is just an idea. The rates of return could be adjusted so that they are not OP.




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 7:59:21)

@Above
But wouldn't the BloodShield lead to ignoring Defences? A match could be determined, by stealing 13 HP at a decisive turn...




Gepard Acht -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 8:08:51)

I never though I'll say this but that's one OPed bloodshield




Sipping Cider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 8:16:15)

Great idea goony!


And That blood shield would not do a set amount of weapon damage, but rather it converts a percent of the damage to resistance so the skill is no op for doing damage.

So it's a normal strike and let's say maxed out 50% of weapon damage is added as resistance (so delta weapons would give 16 resistance since 50 % of + 34 is 16)


Kind of like static charge or most bonus damage strike skills




theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 9:27:30)

Blood Mage; Idea for new skill
Current update: Cybers got Plasma Armor, Tacticals got Mineral Armor -> Blood Mages need a passive new skill.

Suggest: Replace Deadly Aim with Perfect Shot

Perfect Shot: (Icon Image (suggest): Deadly Aim with stripes of gold shooting to the corners from the center as background)
Description: Improves your sidearm damage, stealing 20% of the damage you inflict from your enemy to your energy.
Weapon Requirement: Staff
Stats Requirement: Support (20 at Lvl 1, +2 as Lvl increases)
Cooldown:0 Warmup:0

Lvl 1: +2 damage Lvl 6: +10 damage
Lvl 2: +4 damage Lvl 7: +11 damage
Lvl 3: +6 damage Lvl 8: +12 damage
Lvl 4: +8 damage Lvl 9: +13 damage
Lvl 5: +9 damage Lvl 10: +14 damage

For example: I have a lvl 5 Perfect Shot with 10 strength, using a +33 physical gun: my gun damage is 10+33+9=52.
My opponent has 30 defense: my gun does 52-30=22 energy. I gain 22x20%=5 energy, which means my opponent gets 5 energy deducted and adding 5 energy to my energy pool.

Feel free to comment. Thanks~




edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 18:52:59)

they nerfed merc again




BaIllz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/7/2012 19:12:12)

I hope they buff merc, I really don't want to change classes, but I will if it is necessary.. But I also don't want them to nerf CH's... Its like you pay 900 var to play

for a week if your competitive in random pvp. Like lets say you change to the new OP class, then 1 week later, its nerfed. Also I rarely change class, and when I

finally decide to, it gets nerfed.... So I hope merc gets some kind of cool skill, because I see no other varium lvl 30 merc besides me.

~ BaIllz




Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 3:16:27)

@Drinde, I don't get what you mean by the defence ignoring part :/

I didn't put any figures into the skill, so how can you say that it would be OP and the damage and return would be done based on the primary weapon equipped.

The rationale behind the suggestion is that the merc skill tree has 5 skills that don't build rage when used. Heal, switch hybrid, field commander, atom smash and blood shield (I could also say assault bot debuff as well, since it is the only way to counter smoke). So, apart from heal, they all cost a turn for a very limited return (atom smasher gets blocked and it does nothing at all). Since mercs have no skill that improves with dexterity, but a lot of skills that depends on the primary weapon striking the investment in dexterity is done to the detriment of offensive power.

So basically it is very hard to beat your opponent to rage, unless you want to go massive support and then once you have exhausted your energy you have a decent attack every 4 turns. Pretty simple to work around that nowadays!

Then again there are so many Mercenaries at the top level these days */end sarcasm




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 3:21:06)

I mean, the Bloodshield, wouldn't it just like steal 13 EP for example, and ignore all defenses..?




Gepard Acht -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 3:23:02)

Your idea of bloodshield requires taking your enemy HP like a one turn poison as the damage is fixed and thus ignoring def/red




Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 3:41:18)

Hmm, no it wouldn't work like static charge, more like frenzy where the return is based on a % of damage done. That's how you would balance it by adjusting the % of return. Remember all classes can't max all skills so it wouldn't be effective to max it and it can be blocked, but at least you would get some rage build using it.

idk how much time the devs are prepared to spend on balance this year as I expect that Titan and his team will have a plan for what they want to achieve this year. Some new skills are on the agenda, as are new bots I expect. The balance issues might be able to be addressed by creating some new bots to fill in some of the holes...

It is just a suggestion and like a lot of the balance suggestions they are implemented at the discretion of the developers so I wouldn't really worry to much about the details at this stage ;)




Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 6:46:40)

CH- how to fix it after huge buff( passive armor).

- replace DM with defence shield ( works as bloodshield, but for defence)
- remove SA and give them other skill

CH is now the best at tanking and it also has big block chance because of SA.




Kati kat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 6:54:57)

@baillz agreed




I am Primal -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 10:50:54)

indeed ch is the best at tanking i've been able to solo the armour hazard the vdieo will be up today or tomorrow hopefully

back on topic ch can tank extremely well even when i was in my support tlm my aux did 18 dmg to a ch and isn't that saying something?

and don't go all flaming oh u just want tlm to be op again. i changed to tlm 1 day before the release i.e the nerf. i changed to it because it was getting a nerf.

but the nerf was an good nerf not an useless one. it has stopped str tlm abit. and yes ch is very op atm that should be sorted soon.




Gepard Acht -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 11:23:36)

maybe just take plasma armor and SA , give them technician and a different kind of passive

as CH doesnt really need anything as good plasma armor as their buff, the class aint broken from the start so giving them plasma would just make them OP




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 13:12:25)

@Gepard Acht
What kind of passive would that be? Static Charge works in place of Reroute, BL is not for Cyber hence Static, SA is luck based anyway and you want it gone (??), leaving us with Hybrid Armor, Plasma and Mineral.
I still don't get as TM, how CH is broken really (OP).. You gotta max Plasma, near-max Static and possibly few points in Heal and/or Matrix. Leaving you with few more for either Malf or Massacre as it's hard to get both at once unless you're Lvl 33/34 and just go for that which is impossible to maintain at lower Lvl (look at EP cost, what if Static misses, etc). Remember 42 Tech requirement for Plasma Armor, Malf improves with Support too, SA requires Support too (so Malf and SA or Massacre - you can't have both) and Massacre has requirement too AFAIK.
People said before that E Armor, Plasma + Dex build = OP'ed CH. Not really - Dex only improves Multi, and if you go for any skill, remember to meet requirements first which will drop Dex significantly.
May I point out, TLM is same as CH - Mineral = Plasma, Smoke = Malf, but Reroute =/= Static Charge. If we were to talk about Massacre being bad, TLMs have Surgical strike which reduces rage only and I think steals some HP, well Massacre is just pure damage with no side effect.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 13:23:04)

@above
Actually trans on it subject of dex build I have a very effective one but it doesn't use SA




AZN.Peasant -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 13:23:11)

Good job making cyber hunter the op class now.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 13:24:28)

Yea it's their cycle, stop complaining about it




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/8/2012 13:25:53)

@Zeoth
I though of Dex build myself as it could work, but your damage would really fall behind a lot when including requirements even for Plasma Armor. And healing would be an issue if Static misses, as you can't get Energy back.

@AZN.Peasant
Without a reason, I can say thanks Staff for making BMs best class possible, annihilating 99% of the players!




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