Price and Expectations (Full Version)

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frogbones -> Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 14:21:04)

For the last two years, people have been making comments like this:

quote:

I think people expect way too much from a flash game with a tiny team.


On its own, there's nothing wrong with this statement. On its own, I agree with it. ED is a small team, so we should be patient with them.

The problem, though, is it's out of context. It's a vacuum statement. And as we all know, ED doesn't exist in a vacuum. When making this type of assessment, one needs to consider the big picture. And the big picture is this:

The reason so many of us are often disappointed and complain/rant/vent/moan is because of one fundamental issue: PRICING.

Think about it: If ED cost just half as much as it does, would there be as many complainers? I guarantee not. We would all be more forgiving, understanding, and calm if we didn't feel like were being scammed.

But since they choose to make this game VERY expensive (remember, "It's just a flash game"), we have the right, the obligation, to demand our money's worth.

If I go to Mc Donalds and spend $5 on a burger, fries, and a drink, I expect greasy, mediocre food. If some of my fries are burnt, or my soda's a tad watery, or the tomato is mushy, whatever---it's only $5 and my expectations were low to begin with. I eat it and move on. But if I were to go to a steak house and spend $50 for a cut of prime rib that was overcooked, you better believe that I'd mention it to the waiter.

You see where I'm going with this? Because ED chooses to charge so much for its product, my expectations are (and should be) elevated.

With high prices come high expectations.

The way many of us see it, ED is getting away with charging Steak House prices for McDonalds food.



Shadronica -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 15:10:48)

I have spent one and a half years saying the same thing myself frogbones including going to the big Kahuna himself but alas it is to no avail.

Therefore I and many many others have found other places to get our bang for bucks. ;)

I appreciate the effort that the ED team have made but the pricing is one thing that gets totally overlooked here considering it is just a 2D browser based game.

Yes I know that pricing discussions is on the forbidden topics list in the forum which is one of the reasons I don't take ED seriously.



Wraith -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 15:18:00)

What's with the McDonalds food analogies sprouting up everywhere?

You are indeed correct, but 90% of the players are F2P. 10%, or 160 or so, players are Varium players. They spend $50 biweekly. That's $25 a player every week. Not exactly a lot.

I may be wrong, I simply guessed.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 15:29:21)

Although this may only be applicable to those who purchase via varium, f2ps have suffered an ordeal such as this in a similar matter. Enhancements are crazy high and the ability to compete is undermined greatly by the amount of money spent. Bots, armours, weaponry, looks, bikes, faction, warkills, and the list could go on forever.

There're way better games with high quality graphics and less bugs that costs less than ED. Yes, ED has a small team but in no way does it (and should it) correlate to the expense of a mere 2-D flash game.

While such an issue persists, ED has trouble with updates and the introduction of new features in general. While the premise is a good one, sometimes it can be perceived to be detrimental to the community.

Example:

1) Out-dating weaponry: While there are updates that focus on introducing weapons, many haven't been focused on updating weapons. Weapons such as sharkzooka and nautical zooka during Beta (both of which are varium), are easily mocked by the new varium items on the shelves. Newer items are buffed more and more than previous items forcing one to buy in order to stay competitive.

The issue with outdating- it's a marketing ploy! It's a ripoff! It creates the incentive to purchase.

- Arguably, look at the varium armour sold in the past, and zookas? Wasted artwork?

2) Enhancements- Nonvar + Var gap and the source of OPED builds.


[EDIT] @Wraith

quote:

You are indeed correct, but 90% of the players are F2P. 10%, or 160 or so, players are Varium players.


Well, it may hold true for lower levels (around 20-30s), but there are way more vars players than nonvars once they reach they lvl cap 34. On the par of around 10 fights, in a 1v1 I fight 8:2 varium to nonvarium and 2v2 6:4 varium to nonvarium



I am Primal -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 15:40:39)

more that 10% of players are varium it's not beta when there was loads of non variums most of them have quit. just new players now that are non variums. i'd say it;s about 50/50.



Shadronica -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:08:46)

Just to put the pricing of ED in perspective with its competitors ... another game which is well known ... is doing a package which includes the following.

1. A full set of extremely good gear ready to battle with no enhancements required.

2. A huge palace to call home complete with an outdoor area.

3. A pet that helps you in battle (equivalent to ED bots).

4. A unique mount (equivalent to ED hoverbikes).

5. Game currency to the value of $10 U.S dollars.

And the cost of all that ... $35 U.S dollars.

I am not telling you this to promote another game ... I am just saying that ED really needs to be realistic about the varium packages with its pricing to be considered a game worthwhile spending money on.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:10:25)

Pricing is complicated because of the issue of enhancements and shifting of demographics for class change when any balance adjustments are made.
Right now, there isn't enough content beyond pvp, so the sole source of revenue is with Weapon/Armor sales.

This game was designed small, and as it was expanding, the game's garment started splitting at the seams from growth and expectations. Over these many releases, it seems the game is rebuilding their structure to hold more varied content.

The game has holes in regard to balanced cost structure and the usability of all items regardless of continued level progression.




goldslayer1 -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:22:01)

i have to agree on the pricing here.
it is expensive.
i buy atleast 1 large package every month (sometimes 2)

keep in mind that this is a web browser flash game.
my question is, why shouldn't i expect more from this game?
i could be playing DC universe which is a top quality MMO for only $15 a month.
yet im still sticking with ED for now because i want to see if it will improve.

when DCUO went free to play, on their first day their servers population rose up to 400k.
only in the first day.
now that they gotten a TV commercial. and its been weeks since free to play. i can imagine 5 million player within the first month.

now it also has some of the best graphics i seen (for a download game) and even then the highest amount of money u can pay is $15 a month.
not to mention theres no such things as enhancements.

ohh and if u buy legendary access ($15 monthly) u get access to ALL releases and DLC. (because u dont have to buy more for the releases, it all comes included in a package deal with legendary)
and having legendary gives u WAY more bag slots (without the need of purchasing it like we do here). way more character slots (up to 18 characters) and u can have any powers in the game for any character u want.
ur basically not limited to anything.
OHH another thing. if u buy legendary for ur account. all of ur 18 characters have legendary status. not just ur character in particular but every character u have. (not like in ED where its per character)

so i am considering my options here of sticking to ED or moving on.




9001WaysToLaugh -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:39:05)

I spend $49.95 a year and I can still play competitively. Am I missing something here?



goldslayer1 -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:44:28)

@9001
ur case is completely different here.
u bought an armor thats been pretty good for the last year and a half. those who werne't founders had to keep buying more. i dont wanna get into details about this but its true.
those who had founder. at the time while founders was the top armor, most founders didn't bother buying other armors.
while some founders will say they did bought other armors. most didn't.
i mean why would i buy a weak armor when i have the strongest one in the game?
so eventually during that time period most founders used 25% less varium than the non founders. (statistically speaking)



Angels Holocaust -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:45:25)

My main question to everyone here is, why are we still here playing the same crap over and over again? We know that it's not worth our time or money so why are we still taking this abuse from them?



Shadronica -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:45:49)

@ 9001. Yes we are discussing the pricing of the game not how much you spend. ;)



PD -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:47:12)

@9001WaysToLaugh:

Your story is not the sum of everyone's thoughts.

And to the OP [Frogbones], Prices themselves aren't the problem but the lack of a coherent system when it comes to balance. Prices are a subjective matter. Expensive and Cheap are relative in the terms of Epicduel and income levels themselves. Your ideas of expensive and cheap are not the basis of everyone's beliefs of what is a cheap and expensive value. You can't really say something is cheap and expensive unless there's a definitive methodology to prove that there is a universal value of cheap and expensive. In a monetary system like the one we exist in, the terms expensive and cheap are relative due to the divergent and widely dispersed income inequalities that come with it. There is a such thing as more expensive and more cheap as well as less expensive and less cheap, but those are comparisons. Comparing one thing to itself is generally... ineffective (putting it simply)

Prices would be fixed to reflect and assert a true value under a definitively coherent system in ED where the prices don't reflect level tier/power tier but the effort expended to acquire such.

I simply look at disgust as people turn the subjective into the asserted truth. That goes against the laws of what balance is in the first place. I look down in shame that people believe the reflection is the problem and not the problem being the problem.



frogbones -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:50:41)

Some people pay $0 a year and are still competitive. Or at least, they still have fun. How much someone pays per month or year is really not the point.

The point is that, item for item, feature for feature, the cost to buy and upgrade gear (or access certain features) is very expensive and therefore leads people to have high expectations for the game.

Whether you buy varium one time per year or twenty-five times per year is irrelevant.




Calogero -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:56:19)

Depends on how you see it...
The way it is now ( own currency ) 50 euro's for 10 000 Varium

1200 Varium for an armor with 8 Enhancements
1200 Varium for a gun with 8 Enhancements
1700 Varium for a weapon with 10 Enhancenment spots ( Delta's )
1200 Varium for an Aux with 8 Enhancement spots

That's allready More than half of your varium spend on Just those 4 thigs
If you want the Yeti for example, you'll have to pay another 1900 varium.
If you want an armor that has the opposite Defence/Resistance boost another 1200 Varium

That comes to 8400 Varium not to mention Eventualy Name Change/Class Change and/or Varium helm.

50 Euro's for 10 000 varium Can be fair, IF the ingame prices weren't that freaking expensive



goldslayer1 -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:58:22)

@andy
ur counting the enhancements price. but ur forgetting about the armor price itself (like 1k for buying the armor then another 1200 to enhance it) same with the other items.
eventually 10k doesn't last u long enough to have a full set gear including robot.



Calogero -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 16:59:45)

I know Goldslayer, I kept them out because those prices depend from rare/non rare/event etc etc...

So you can see, You couldn't even enhance and Buy everything if you got 1 10 k Varium



I am Primal -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 17:06:13)

angels we keep playing this game cuz it's too hard to quit it. it;s so addictive. i tryed to quit i only lasted 2 weeks without any battles. this game is an money draining machine. and they've done a good job of it.



Shadronica -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 17:08:47)

Exactly the point. If you are a varium buyer there is never enough to keep yourself updated and enhanced. ED has a voracious appetite. Sure you can get by without it but its hardly the point to a game that is such a win based, leaderboard based game. Unless you are just content to leech out a few wins and just be sociable... not for me I am afraid. I like to be very competitive but I am not foolish enough to keep throwing money down the drain when my fully enhanced weapons and armor are always being outdated.

Now with that in mind ... what Frogbones is saying is absolutely correct. With the very high cost of this game comes very high expectations.

It really is time that we not only get some battle balance but ED really needs to look at its varium balance as to how this game performs against its competitors.



Nexus... -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 17:38:54)

It's thanksgiving and I'm doing math. Fantastic :)

Average Gear Cost:

Armor: 995 (Non Rare)
Primary: 995 (Non Rare)
Sidearm: 995 (Non Rare)
Auxiliary: 995 (None Rare)
Robot: (1200 + 1900)/2 = 1550

995*4 = 3980

Enhancement Cost:

1200*4 (excluding testing phase promo's (founder/delta)) = 4800 -- Enhancements cost 800 more then all the gear itself with an added (very expensive) robot

4800 + 3980 = 8780 -- All non-rare gear (besides Yeti which was averaged) with the standard enhancement price applied.

Then you have enough money for 1 Varium Perk:


10,000 - 8780 = 1,220

Class Change: 1,220 - 900 = 320 (So you get 6 New Varium Style/Color Changes) -- Not able to use you varium for any new equipment
Inventory Space: 1,220 - 775 = 470 (So you get 9 New Varium Style/Color Changes)
Name Change: 1,220 - 1100 = 120 ((So you get 9 New Varium Style/Color Changes)

This is STANDARD cost, roughly at its lowest for a maxed out Varium Player.

How long does this standard issue equipment last? About 3-4 weeks if you are lucky. EpicDuel updates with a rare event every 1-2 Months. Rare/Seasonal rare equipment is considerably more.

Armor: 1250 (Rare/Seasonal)
Primary: 1500 (Promo/Seasonal) (Frosty))
Sidearm: 995 (Seasonal)
Auxiliary: (1500 + 2200)/2 (Rare/Seasonal) = 1,850
Robot: (1900 + 1500)/2 (Rare (2/3)) = 1700


Standard Issue +8 Enhancements = 4800

4800 + 1250 + 1500 + 995 + 1,850 + 1700 = 12,095 (12,100) Varium For a Maxed set of rare Varium Equipement

2 months later better equipement will be released, and a 6 Months later the equipment will be considered outdated.

Please remember 12,100 does not take into account the purchase of ANY varium perk besides equipment.


I also understand not everyone purchases solely rare gear or standard issue varium gear. So an average?

(12,100 + 8,780)/2 = 10,440 -- The average epicduel varium player will pay more then 10,000 varium ($50) for a full set of Varium gear, and will have to pay even more for any kind of Varium perk.

This game really does cost far to much, and as frogbones/gold/andy have already said, this is a 2D web based flash game. Furthermore the staff continually uses the excuse that "we are but a small 2D web based flash game with 2 coders and an artist, don't expect much." The root of this problem is how much you charge. You cannot expect us to "not expect much" when we are paying such a high premium. If you have no control over the prices, you need to change that. Your players are not happy, and until they are you should be doing everything in you power to get that fixed.


Hope I set some things straight, this is outrageous. All of you who disagree will someday come to see ;)



Prophet





9001WaysToLaugh -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 17:40:40)

@Shadronica That explains a lot.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 17:57:01)

@nexus
u get my thumbs up for running the numbers.



Retrosaur -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 18:10:33)

Thank god I did $50 worth of AExtra offers (whew).



frogbones -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 18:12:13)

@ PD:

There you go again, over-intellectualizing a very simple post. You're tooting your horn so loudly that you can't hear the other traffic that's going on all around you.

This game is obectively expensive, and that's a fact based on reality. It doesn't matter if you can afford it or not, and it doesn't take a genius or a mathematician (thanks, Nex) to come to that conclusion.




DeathGuard -> RE: Price and Expectations (11/24/2011 18:16:34)

Lol, I'm sorry for the Yeti's users, it is useless against me and many other players. Its base damage is actually way to low, it should be increased.



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