RE: should TLM be nerfed? (Full Version)

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Dragonnightwolf -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 1:18:44)

Don't be so sure that just because a tcm is above average that it instantly makes them completely unbeatable.

If you have a tech mage (like I use) and you have a pretty decent partner in the 2 on 2. The odds of winning are higher.

And here's why. While it is true the tcm has a hybrid armor. Both Malfunction and smokescreen can lower the res/def numbers making the opponent a bit more damage acceptable.

But that alone isn't enough right? right. So combine a good aux, a decent gun, and even a robot (gamma, the yeti pet is good for weapon munching, energy robot)

Now if i face a tcm. Is it a risk? absolutely. But the same can be said if I went up against any other class.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. What matters is how you play. If you strategize ahead of time, the odds of a tcm winning, lessen.



ND Mallet -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 1:20:47)

@gold Now you're just grasping at straws to try and help your argument. Maybe we wouldn't have a game if it wasn't for build copying? See, I can blindly grasp at arguments too. I told you my build was atrocious and it was. 65 health, energy for Max Artillery in 2vs2 and a lvl 8 Surgical Strike, hardly any strength at all, no aux, no Hybrid, just tech and support as my main stats and a little dex. Now how did build copying make me lose when it was obviously my build? One more thing, if I use a strength build and I whoop someone they start thinking "Maybe if I used a lot of strength like that guy then I would be good too." Voila, another strength build user. He doesn't need to copy his exact tree. He just needs to spam strength.



goldslayer1 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 1:26:33)

quote:

Now you're just grasping at straws to try and help your argument. Maybe we wouldn't have a game if it wasn't for build copying? See, I can blindly grasp at arguments too. I told you my build was atrocious and it was. 65 health, energy for Max Artillery in 2vs2 and a lvl 8 Surgical Strike, hardly any strength at all, no aux, no Hybrid, just tech and support as my main stats and a little dex. Now how did build copying make me lose when it was obviously my build?

im not refering to UR build, im reffering to ur opponents build.
builds like heal loop, or support merc, or tank merc, or str bh.
im not grasping at straws. and im not looking for as many excuses to turn down a good suggestion that would essentially do A LOT more good than it does bad.

quote:

One more thing, if I use a strength build and I whoop someone they start thinking "Maybe if I used a lot of strength like that guy then I would be good too." Voila, another strength build user. He doesn't need to copy his exact tree. He just needs to spam strength.


well that would still make things difficult for build copying.
if all he does is str spam as oppose to u using good skill combos. as far as im concerned u still have the upper hand.
secondly, im still not sure if its displaying the class or not. using str on a sword primary = the biggest brain scartcher.
thats problem the best brain scrambler against ur enemy if he doesn't even know what class u are at first.

he will however determine it, ur passive abilities, like health regain, energy regain, or over tanking.
but when using an enemy build analogy, dont use todays builds as opposed to past builds that would have never been discovered nor nerfed if build copying were stopped.



charlie2124 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 1:26:38)

@Dragon while that is true,you have to remember that most TLM's are lvl 34 or at least in the 30's. Plus,not just TLM's,but almost and class at level 34 or 33 have stats in the hundreds. it would be like trying to hit a brick wall with a twig.



charlie2124 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 1:37:31)

@Gold wait a minute,how did we even start discussing hiding a player's build? you should start your own thread for that bud,this is what people think on a nerf for TLM.



goldslayer1 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 1:44:17)

@charlie
i understand its about tlm, but a nerf on tlm wouldn't be needed if build copying dont exist. and this would solve more than just tlm's current problems. but i will consider making a thread.



Wootz -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 3:07:21)

Well, this is mostly balance discussion, but, whatever.
As I said in balance thread, yes they should a bit, as it is too easy to make a easy Strenght abuse or Tank build and it still has synergy in the attacks, more precisly in the Strenght build.



Oba -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 5:44:16)

I'd have to say that TLM is still abit OP. Atleast STR TLM, Tanks can also be a pain. Yet CH is even stronger so that class need a nerf first of all...



Wootz -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 6:26:25)

That depends Playarn, Strenght TLM's can easily win over Cyber Hunters if they are using an Massacre build. They just atom smash their energy for 20-30 and they cannot regen that ammount in a 2 turns, sometimes even 4.



Goony -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 7:28:08)

quote:

Both Malfunction and smokescreen can lower the res/def numbers making the opponent a bit more damage acceptable.


What if the class you play doesn't have one of those debuffs? Try winning then... meh!

We are all grasping at straws when it comes to what's is actually happening in the game. This is due to the fact that we mainly judge balance from a narrow perspective.

Maybe, one day we will be enlightened with game facts instead of insect facts in the game design notes...

Until then we'll just be mushrooms. You know, kept in the dark and fed on bull.... Oh wait we are not even fed that these days, that's why these forums are dying and people don't bother to post politely. I mean what's the point, the moderation is in behaviour not direction...

The thing is the devs probably know CH an TIM are performing better than the other classes, but it's not like they know exactly how to address it. For instance swapping technician for blood shield on TIM, sure technician powered a few more skills, but was it the main reason TIM were OP. IMO no!

Where they go now is anybodies guess, but I have given up trying to make suggestions as my head is hurting from bashing it against a brick wall...



Stabilis -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 7:54:10)

I've discussed gold's suggestion twice in the past. He has the right idea.



ngshuyi94 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 8:06:24)

Tlm are on par with CH but CH got the advantage if the battle is a long one because they can get unlimited amount of energy.

If u say nerf tlm, i'd say nerf CH to make it fair.

But the fact is that classes such as the normal merc need a buff.

BM need a way to steal energy(assimilation).

More of these classes should be focused on in my opinion because they are really behind the rest of the classes.

Just my opinion, u may not agree to it. [;)]



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 10:54:36)

Really? CH is the strongest class hands down. It has unlimited energy! CH and TLM are the two strongest classes. But CH is still ahead of TLM. CH needs a nerf, and any other weaker classes can just get a buff. No more nerfing! The only nerf we need is to CHs after that no more nerfs just buffs! They already shown they can buff up the classes easily without destroying balance or having to buff up the NPCs too. So I don't see the problem.



Stabilis -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 10:57:31)

^ I would agree that CH needs a nerf, I've even suggested fixes in the skill/class suggestions. But is it not elitist to haze a group of players which you yourself do not belong to?



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 11:12:26)

@Depressed I am not a CH and I really don't care. I just know they need a nerf badly the Balance Tracker has proved CHs and TLMs are OPed because both of us perform beyond average. And TM and Mercs perform below normal. So TM and Mercs need a buff and CHs need a nerf. I honestly do not find TLMs that strong. If the other classes are buffed and CHs are nerfed I don't see the problem. I just don't see how this thread is a complain thread about TLMs when these ridicolous OPed Tank CHs still exist. Nerf them already! 33-40 def 21-26 +9 +12 res! Along with max heal and static charge. How the heck are you suppose to break threw that? Especially if they have assualt bot to debuff debuffs!



Cookielord12 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 11:33:49)

They are strong but i can beat some (by luck) and yes they should be nerfed but not as much as the CHs



Stabilis -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 11:42:51)

Hybrid armour is OK right now. Mostly because Mercenaries have only one passive. Mineral Armor with Reroute is overpowered, and Plasma Armor with Static Charge is overpowered. I have suggested for CH that instead of SA + PA, they get 2 new passives. Passive # 1 deals recoil damage upon being stricken by a Primary weapon, and Passive # 2 increases chance to hit with a Primary (maximum 10% increase) and increases the rate of rage gain (maximum 20% bonus to rage).

CH would lose their Malfunction and have that replaced with Energy Shield. Now CH would not be able to defend passively from 50% of all attacks, and lose offensive power. Then I suggested replacing CS with a Primary skill that allows the use of a sword, basically a power attack to increase Strike damage. It is moderately expensive in energy as well, something CH would agree in, that energy redemption is not an issue.

I'm working on repairing CH, who will be the one to repair TacM?



Ranloth -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 12:25:07)

Remove CHs and TLMs passive Armors and replace them with appropriate skills (DM for TLMs and Technican *again* for CHs). If you want my explanation, feel free to check Balance Topic or PM me as I made quite a long post about it.. ._.
Simple solutions, well simpler than Void's CHs skill change but not saying his idea is poor as posting ideas is good + some of them are quite interesting. ^^



Smackie El Frog -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 12:43:41)

Trans they didn't create those new skills just to have them be tossed away. xD There has to be different ways too alter skill trees without going back to the drawing board.



Ranloth -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 12:52:30)

Agreed but..
It's either passive Armors gone or cripple their skills severely so they compensate for Energy Regen, Passive Armor, and debuff. :3



TurkishIncubus -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 13:46:08)

I dont see any difference between CH and TLM, maybe CH is better than it :P



streetnaruto -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 16:08:00)

ch is better than tlm. AND if plasma armor gets a nerf mineral armor will also be nerfed



streetnaruto -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 16:16:27)

o btw its the varium ch that are op as creds they still are but not the same degree. I saw a lvl 34 var MERC go against a cred lvl ch with snork armor hh mutating and dragon breath and k blaster (with static charge malfunc buid) after a long battle merc won so its not imposible



Ranloth -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 16:20:56)

Enhancements 'slightly' break the balance but Battle Tracker probably does see if they use Varium equipment or not. Either way, gap between items is closing so difference will be also seen if Credit CHs are OP'ed or not. To be honest, they might be weaker but it doesn't change the fact SC + Massacre/Multi + Heal infinity loop is right, along with passive Armor and debuff skill. It's confirmed TLMs and CHs are too strong so they will be nerfed. After that, we should see buffs mainly for those UP'ed classes left.
I just hope to see passive Armors gone someday, will be much better to play even though code will get wasted for the Mineral and Plasma Armor, with every release there is some old code that needs to be deleted/re-written so will be similar case here.



goldslayer1 -> RE: should TLM be nerfed? (2/22/2012 17:38:47)

quote:

What if the class you play doesn't have one of those debuffs? Try winning then... meh!

We are all grasping at straws when it comes to what's is actually happening in the game. This is due to the fact that we mainly judge balance from a narrow perspective.

Maybe, one day we will be enlightened with game facts instead of insect facts in the game design notes...

Until then we'll just be mushrooms. You know, kept in the dark and fed on bull.... Oh wait we are not even fed that these days, that's why these forums are dying and people don't bother to post politely. I mean what's the point, the moderation is in behaviour not direction...

The thing is the devs probably know CH an TIM are performing better than the other classes, but it's not like they know exactly how to address it. For instance swapping technician for blood shield on TIM, sure technician powered a few more skills, but was it the main reason TIM were OP. IMO no!

Where they go now is anybodies guess, but I have given up trying to make suggestions as my head is hurting from bashing it against a brick wall...

well said. i too am growing tired of making suggestions against a brick wall.

heres a theory tho, if ur a boss and ur employs arent doing well, and keep performing below the desired lvl (the lvl that pleases their customers) would u keep those same employs? or get new ones until u get results done? (i am not speaking of titan or NW, or char, or cindy)

i will be making a couple of more suggestions, and if i keep getting a wall instead of doors, then it looks like ill be done suggesting things. because just like many, they are more than just fed up with some of the things.
which is sad because the game can be great if managed right.



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