RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 20:40:36)

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quote:

@Matrix,

quote:

I realize that as well, but do those that do not use str in their build normally uses tank?


A stereotype? Well, we shall need Battle Tracker to determine your question, so analytics are out of the question. We can not generalize the population by stereotypes as they do not represent the individuals who are not of the group.

quote:

if plasma shield was removed from CH, they are no longer strong tankers which then those with tanking class will complain why plasma shield was removed and that their tank builds are now destroyed.


They are no longer durable tanks. It is not inherited that a player relies on cheap skills like Plasma Armour to cover their flaws (which would be defense and resistance) in battle. It should be neutralized between all classes. Cyber Hunters would only tank because of the bonus stat points gained from armour which converts to approximately 50 stat points at max. With armour, it is much easier for a tank to protect from damage, in turn allowing the player extra stat points for health or energy (in the case of focus). 3 of 6 classes have armours, 3 of 6 classes are not permitted this advantage. If Cyber Hunters complain that the bonus points acquired from armours are gone, that is their problem... abusing a cheap advantage.

quote:

After their tank builds are destroyed, and static remains unchange, what's next? Str build. Why?


Not a higher win rate. More Strength will compromise defenses. Cyber Hunters do not own nice passives like Reroute to compensate extra damage. If anything Strength Cyber Hunters will end up being the fastest build killers with a quite low percentage.

quote:

Strength builds are inturn fully encouraged and many will go str build base(assumption here) resulting in many str abuses from the CH class.


True. If I have time later I will suggest edits to the Strength stat itself. Some have recommended lower the base damage, this would be a good first step.

quote:

Eventually people will complain about the strength CH class and static being key role to their str build. Then what happens? Balance team will still end up nerfing static, and wala, we come right back to this same argument about static being nerf.


Its funny you mention that because one of my larger concerns is Static Charge scaling with Base Strength Damage. This is the issue I am trying to reach Ashari about.

quote:

Plasma shield benefits most if not all CH builds, many if not all(assuming) CHs uses plasma shield up to lv6 or higher.


1: I am against Cyber Hunters owning Plasma Armour

2: I am against Static Charge being a skill to scale with Strength

Vote for Depressed Void, your new mayor. [8D]




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 20:44:52)

+1 Void. Explained it better than I would ever be able to




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 20:45:45)

^

Thank you my friend! I should add you as a contact. [:D]




Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 20:50:25)

@void - hands down, you win boss :) +1 vote for mayor.

Your arguments are very well presented. I completely agree but I still strongly believe some of the points I've presented are valid points towards why static should be nerf rather than removing plasma.

What I think here is, if plasma is remove, str builds = even more abundant among the CH class = people complaining about them and their heal looping = balance team nerfing static eventually. Rather than waiting 6 months later for static to be nerf, why not do it now and resolve the problem? Also why would the balance team put in a skill only to remove it later on when its beneficial to all the players that plays as the CH class?




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 20:59:31)

@Matrix,

Thanks for accepting my preaching. [;)]

I know Plasma Armour looks cool, is cool, and is powerful, but I find that the skill is like a jelly doughnut... you can have more and more of it, but you will not realize that its gone when you indulge in its gluttons.

As a Cyber Hunter I understand that Static Charge is powerful to my enemies, especially if I ever do 10->3 damage with the attack and gain around 20 energy. However the skill is a key component to strategy, and a new strategy. I call the effect conservatism. Cyber Hunters who grew mutual on Static Charge like myself find the most appropriate value for the skills I am using. If I wanted 20 energy per strike, I'll make my Static Charge do just that. However, Static Charge improves with Strength.

My suggestion is that it improves with Primary weapon damage only... sort of scaling with player level. I find the Strength attribute of the skill is edging on more players to abuse Strength, and I will not tolerate that.

Thanks again.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 21:00:57)

Never said your arguments were invalid. As I do agree with many of them, as of right now I don't see a solution. But I think Voids suggestion in the old balance thread could work very well




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 21:06:14)

Goodnight guys I'll see you all tomorrow.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 21:19:59)

Cya Void it was cool talking about balance with you ^^




ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 22:09:27)

@void Like it's been, stated creating new skills eat at a lot of resources.

Going by first glance I can tell you that Plasma Aura will either be OPd or UPd. OPd since you said it removes 10% of total health upon primary damage. This means 10 primary strikes and someone dies. Spam tech and dex and you have the next OPd build that is probably even worse then anything before it. UPd if you base it off damage inflicted since BH and BM gain health back from damage. If you adjust the numbers so Bloodlust is useless against it, every other class suffers big time.

Cyber Arts will support strength builds since they would now have higher hit rate because of it. Think of a Str Hunter with the ability to gain huge amounts of energy back in one strike, except it's actually a CH. The Poison reduction isn't helping much since it's entirely situational and OPd when it comes to that situation.

Really isn't anything wrong with Cheap Shot so I don't see why it needs replaced. Secondly, it seems a bit underperforming from what I remember about the other strength moves like it.

Energy Shield should probably stay off considering it improves with Support as does Defense Matrix. Plus, combined with Plasma Aura, you'll be safe behind 3 damage while your opponent suffers a slow demise by the hands of the 10% health damage.




Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 22:13:09)

Meh.

CH just got royally shafted.

TLMs get 8 months of OP, CH gets not even one month...




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 22:14:59)

Gotta live with somethings eh? ^^




Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 22:21:49)

@Above: Yeah, like parting with 50k creds ._.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 22:24:13)

I'm loyal to Ch I just wanna try Bm >_>




Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/1/2012 22:29:38)

@Wraith
And all the other classes got shafted for that 3 weeks because they were underpowered by comparison




Algorithm -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 0:39:12)

Lol, love the nerf to TLMs




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 0:54:59)

Lol
@Zman
And all the other classes got shafted for 8 months by TLMs so no comparision




goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 1:08:04)

CH didn't get shafted
they will still remain strong after the update.
the same cant be said for tlm tho.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 1:09:24)

TLM is just a class though, a lot of the players that were Support Mercs became TLM and then CH as they became OP.
I would much prefer all classes balanced than making one OP for months at a time :P ^^




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 1:36:26)

My idea of effective and effecient balance changes:
First off I will describe about What I think needs to be done to TLMs and CHs (note: When reading my solution for eveything else below asume these classes have been tacken care of.)
Change CH and TLMs to follow a sort of Skill tree rule which means because they have a passive armour they have to be restriceted to the same degree as mercs.

-This means either Removing their passive armors (My choice for the propper and most effecient way) and give them no restriction for having a passive armour.(because its removed)

- Or, Removing both the energy regain, and the damage debuff (smoke /malf) (not my prefered option.)



It seems the balance team is following method 2 and that is to let them keep their passive armour but level them to the same standard as Mercs.
Persoanlly I think this method is very damaging on variety, bad long term, slow and forces too many classes to be similar.

WHY?? Do they wont to give classes a means to be soo powerful, THAT is the problem!! Force CH to revovle around STR??? Create a BOT TO DESTROY DEFENCES??? AND INSAINE AMOUNTS OF STATS TO Power and defence abuse??? Then Give these powerful classes a PASSIVE ARMOUR???? HONESTLY what are you guys thinking??? I fail to see how making OPED STR BUILDS a more of a focus WILL to anything to improve this game EXCEPT WORSEN IT and force EVEN more people to ABUSE STR OR DEFENCE LIKE A CONSTANT VAIRETY CONSTRICTING CHAIN REACTION!

Also you should note that with the upcoming changes they are only halfway to following the skill tree rules or in other words leveling them to merc standard.
This means I highly doubt these balance changes will hardly last at all even less so for CHs which are berly getting effected.
I also should point out that some of you may think Im comparing TLMs and CHs with an uped class (mercs) BUT mercs are 100% balanced an even with the other classes there problem is TLMS a version of them BUT they break the rules and have an energy gain!
If you take away CHs and TLMs passive armour Like it should be done!!! Then mercs will automatically be leveled with all the other classes INSTANTLY! (NO buff needed)

Though I do apreciate them actuly taking the right approach even though the way they go about doing it destorys variety and has a short chance of sucses. (IMO I mean no offence at all.)
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Another issue which is not Adressed in this particular change is the problems created with having tooooooo many stats in the game.
As you can see,
Battles are about power in either Extreme damage of attacks or Extreme defences.
This crushes variety and limits most classes and builds to very limted options. (because you practically cant beat Tanks/Power builds without going one.)
It also causes LUCK to be ALOT! more impacting especially first chance.

Now steps could be tacken to reduce first chances impact but that only solves 1/10 probelms that are followed up by having too many stats in the game.
Just because first chance isnt as impacting doesnt mean the battles these days wont be a bunch of effortless extreme powerbuilds complaing about how they got blocked to lose when if they didnt get blocked they become almost Undefeatable, This wont change and addressing starting chance ALONE wont result in proper long term balance.

That is why I think gun and aux enahments should be removed from the game and a enahment sellback added and intorduced at 100% sellback for gun/aux enahments. (while perhaps a 20% sellback for primaries and armours.)


Apart from CH and TLMs, IMO NO class is oped and NO classes have a problem, The problem lies in the forcing of either extreme attack dmagae or extreme defences because of Way too many stats ingame due to enahments.

I STRONGLY belive that is some of the stats were removed and the overall general power of ALL builds reduced Most classes will become balanced variety will increase BY ALOT! Luck wont make so much diffrence in battles despite the factors having NO change and some requiments and passed stat restrictions could be lowered and reduced to make up for it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I realise that alot of people arnt too shore about what is wrong with balance these days, but if you played in a period around 1-2 years ago (just before gun/aux enahments) and compare to now you will agree with me that something IS wrong.

I belive I have found out this cause and the solution doesnt require many changes to classes builds and skills trees (apart form the obviolsy Oped TLM and CH layout).
It doesnt require the invention of new skills to make the less power classes more powerful. (usally ending up with them still being weak or actuly become too Oped! I can think of around 5 examples xD)
It doesnt require making ANY class more powerful except for the fact that classes will be braught to an even scale and may seem stronger in that sence if your class was braught out of the dark (mercs).
And it lowers the extreme cost for the game!!








ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 2:03:01)

@remorse There are absolutely no rules for skill trees. You can make them up as much as you want, but it doesn't mean the balance team has to follow them. It's been stated countless times that the classes are supposed to be different and not carbon copies of each others except with different skill names. To fight all the points introduced by gun and aux enhancements they added Stat Diminishing(which was suggested by Dax before all the enhancements and very popular as well). They made Stat Diminishing so stat abuse builds required more stat abuse and less health/energy or vital stats. They kept enhancements so you could get something decent with all the Diminishing Returns. Be happy they added Diminishing Returns during all the enhancements or you would be dealing with 30+ primary damage strength builds now instead of the rare 27+. If gun and aux enhancements leave, they will need to relook at Diminishing Returns and work out a way to refund all the players who enhanced their stuff(unless you enjoy seeing flamewars because people feel ripped off). A refund is probably next to impossible anyways. The cost of the game is opinion based only. Buying 50$ during a promo gets you a good, free weapon. If the stats work perfectly for you, then you don't need to buy anything else until you find better stats(that fit better for your build) or you level up and new leveled gear is made. People often complain about how expensive this game when the real problem is that they can't handle their varium wisely. Buying every new piece of gear will just waste your money in the long run. Strategy still plays a huge part in this game. If it didn't, how come we have non varium pros like Jari, Sifi, and New Hope? They surely don't have the stats and damage of varium players yet they still could kick the average varium user to the curb. A lvl 18 Founder with Beta Gear almost lost to my lvl 13 mage with no varium at all. 5 level difference plus he had gear on that outmatched gear several levels ahead of it. Did I win? No but I came close enough that he had to heal twice and use a booster. You don't have to pay to stay on top. You can pay to stay on top, it will just require less thinking if you do that.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 2:18:57)

^ First off When I say rules for skill trees I mean obvious combination that would make them OPED.

What I am trying to prevent IS CARBON COPIES OF EACH OTHER, What it seems to me is the balance team are making 2 similar classes very closly related to merc and each other but with an energy regain!
Why not INCREASE varety 10 fold by making them unique and having only one class (mers) have a passive armour.

Secondly Stat dimishing is hardly doing its JOB, 90% of builds abuse power and or defences which is contatnly RESTRICTING BUILD VARITY which I am trying to INCREASE!
Also why implement enahments in the first place if they were just going to reduce the effects with diminished stats????
Why not reduce the over the top amount of enahemnts and make everyone happeir even if they dont realise it. (some people dont understand the concept that if some enhaments were tacken they actuly WOULD not get a disadvantage at all!)

Thirdly If you want to make rares Better then just GIVE them more base stats to begin with!! They dont need enhaments to make up for it. (thought rares IMO should get no major bonus)

Fourthly I DONT SPEND Much varium at all, and I get extremely anoyed when people acuse me of doing this.
I still use an unenhanced beta gun or a non varium energy gun. I Have the right to say this game is too expensive because buying on average 1 wepon every 3-4 months totals more then the cost of playing a game with better graphics for years!

STRATGY is NOT a huge part of this game aswell I like it how you mentioned a lower level fight because AT lower levels IT actuly is more revolved on startegy WHY????? OMG NO enahments.
Thanks for proving my point!

Now you say non variums compete thats all well and good.
Name how many non vaiums that dont spam STR or defences, or in 2v2 Support.
:O they also are limted to EXTREME POWER AND DEFENCES aswell Just like the varium players so you proving a meaningless point to me there.


Also your complaints in this discussion have constantly been just undermining other people opionions or supporting the devs.
If balance discussions was ment for Supporting the devs THEN WHY DO THEY HAVE A DISCUSION!

If you support them so much why dont you leave other people opinions for them to discuss instead of rejecting every singly alternate opinion to the devs.





Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 3:03:47)

I thought about CH's skill tree and fact they get to keep Malf, Plasma and nerfed SC which is surprising.
SC currently will give like 15 Energy at decent Str and about maxed Lvl. With Plasma and high Dex, they can tank it through to get more Energy back while having debuff - TLMs lost it for FC.
I'd say that SC should not ignore 100% defence but maybe about 50%. Yes it'll weaken it even further but it's 2 turn cooldown and you kept a Debuff and Plasma along with SC, whilst TLMs lost their debuff so they keep Mineral and Reroute.
Dex builds will get higher hit rate so their SC is most likely to hit all the time, Str builds don't need high hit rate - once they hit, their regen will be much higher due to high Str (or abuse). Or simply take away SC from their skill tree, try to make Assimilation-like skill but CH version and let them keep Malf and Plasma. Simples.




goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 3:25:26)

remove plasma armor, keep CH how it was before the buff even happened. and leave static alone.
which many CHs will agree was fine. i myself averaged 94% as a CH without plasma armor.

and that old CH will be even better after u nerfed tlm.




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 3:28:53)

@Gold
Yet people don't seem to get why I want that -.- they just argue that it wouldn't do anything




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/2/2012 3:43:20)

how about,

Leave CHs static but replace Plasma armour with static sheild. (my invention)
quote:

STAIC SHEILD:
Uses up a whole static charge (If blocked it still activates, and sends it into cool down)
and convertes a % of the energy regain from the skill into an energy sheild wich lasts 4 turns and grows in defence each time you are dmaaged (charges itsself)

Each time you are hit 5% of the dmagae tacken is added to the sheild
warm up :0 Cool down :2
lvl 1: 20% of the static charge
lvl2: 25% of the static charge
lvl3: 30%
lvl4: 33%
lvl 5 36%
lvl6: 39%
lvl7: 42%
lvl8: 44%
lvl9: 46%
max: 48%

For example:
A cyber hunter has lvl 1 static sheild and decides to use it.
on clciking this skill they use static charge like normal as if they cliked static charge but instead they clciked static sheild (it sends static charge into cool down also), excpet they gain NO energy from it but a % of the energy regain is turned into a sheild in this example the cyber hunter gets a static charge of 20 energy. 20% of 20 =4
So they have an energy sheild of 4 added for 4 turns yes it is low but its only level one and it grows in power as they are damaged.
For example they are agianst a blood mage which uses fireball and it hits 50 damagae onto them, 5% of the 50 dmagae is added to the sheilds 5% of 50=2.5 rounded to 3 so they gain an extra 3 energy sheild onto the 4 so they now have 7 energy sheild with 3 turns remaning and so on and so forth.

NOTE: skill tree would need to be aranged so static sheild came after static charge and you have to go through static charge to get it, so in other words the player cant have static sheild without static charge hence stuff up the system.

EFFECT: With less defences and sheilds which require gaining no energy from static and sending it to cool down CHs wont be able to heal loop or abuse constant hgih amount of energy.
It wil also benefits the STr build which aparntly Ashari wants so no static restriction would be placed if you a STR build and like a STR build dont use sheilds.


And let TLMs keep there smoke but trade mineral for defence matrix.


Then basically all classes will be even in terms of skill tree layout.

Then they just need to slightly lower the effectiveness of power abusing and defence abusing by perhaps removing gun/aux enahmnets (or increase dimishing returns).
Dimishing returns is the worse option because it restricts vairty to focus/tank were as lowering the actuly total amount of enahments /stats simply reduces problem cuased through too much stats.





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