=ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (Full Version)

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RabbleFroth -> =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:04:53)

Hey all,

Been taking a look at item progression, and we're planning to do a pretty heavy overhaul of items before level 25 so the stats make a little more sense and get better as you level instead of specific items just being outright better than others at the same level. We'll have more information about this soon-ish, that part isn't ready yet.

What has been done though, is a rethinking of the leveling curve. As we thought about progression, we started taking a look at the leveling curve and decided there are many problems with it we would like to resolve. Thus, we came up with a new curve and wanted to share it with you guys to see what you thought.

The following were the main reasons and goals behind doing this:
* Smooth out leveling instead of being super fast early and then suddenly hitting a cliff at level 25
* Make the credit disparity between different level players lower
* Allow the game to cleanly scale to future levels
* Make early and mid-level weapons worth more since you will stay at those levels a little longer

Here's a look at the difference between the old curve and the new one: http://i.imgur.com/dkZLk.png

Thoughts?

Tagged. ~Lycus



Stabilis -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:14:17)

quote:

Thoughts?


Please try to make level cap changes as slow as possible, such as annual cap raises. Anything faster will make imbalances grow like a weed if they are not directed any attention.

I like the idea of making stat raises linear with levels, so this form of curve + slow cap raising will REALLY help in controlling balance.



Ranloth -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:18:01)

By what I understood from the graph, both curves, it'll take slightly longer to level up at about Lvl ~8 than now but will be pretty much ~same at Lvl 33 right?
I understand that this will give us more time to get Credits as it'll probably mean Exp-cap change to make it longer thus accumulation more Credits over the time. But where does that idea stand if you and Titan implement Exp+Credit scaling? Temporary change is great, but we gotta look at the future too. *unless this is accounted already but no explanation yet*
Although I will agree, I got to Lvl 25 soon and used L22 items mainly as I couldn't get enough Credits, and farming for Armor is even more pain as it takes a lot of Credits and makes you Lvl up too soon and end up being weaker than the others but this should take care of it.

By your last point, "Make early and mid-level weapons worth more", it basically means what it says right? So no buffs? Just wanna avoid confusions. ^^
Also the overhaul of items - why just up to Lvl 25? I understand it's main point of it, but there are some higher Level items that are quite old and are quite weak compared to others whilst costing quite a hefty sum of Credits, makes them useless to be even in the game; unfair statting - too weak, poor damage with no compensation - +1 damage = +4 stat points I think, but weapons (older) don't follow such an example.
And what's gonna happen to those characters who are let's say Lvl 28 and meet current requirement but Exp cap changes so they might not match new caps and end up lower/higher Lvl - what will happen, Exp added, Level lowered?

Lastly due to this overhaul, will pricing of enhancements - Credits - will be taken care of? We can accumulate a bit more Credits or have spare which is good but it's still quite hard to afford them, especially mid to higher range.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:21:00)

nice

Lvling is also alot fast and items at low lvl is useless. Most of the low lvl Guns dont give any stats :/, it should be fixed. atleaast make it give 2-3 stat not much but atleast something.



Smackie El Frog -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:27:11)

quote:

* Smooth out leveling instead of being super fast early and then suddenly hitting a cliff at level 25


Does this mean that it will cost players less experience to reach levels 25+ or that it will take longer for players to reach that level 25 wall?



Basicball -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:28:19)

well, i have no idea what equation your curve has, but i feel like the following curve would be quite nice (y=exp, x=lvl) 

y = 0,0835 x^3,9496


at the price changes: IMO, because of the drops, prices should be raised overall, i mean, you get about 20 credits/fight more if you sell them (Approx. 1 drop/50 fights?).
The price of enhancements should be lowered though (by (imo) 66-75%(cred) and 40-50% (Var)) to make them affordable.

quote:

Please try to make level cap changes as slow as possible, such as annual cap raises.

Personally, i like levelcap raises, 2 or 3 times/year should be fine. keep a close eye for juggernaut balance though, it's bound to go haywire if the levelcap is raised once or twice.

last but not least: you forgot to =ED= tag your topic Hudelf ;p


EDIT:

Take care of the 3 levels that take the same amount of exp to level as well please, it makes no sence

quote:

Does this mean that it will cost players less experience to reach levels 25+ or that it will take longer for players to reach that level 25 wall?

If you look at the curves, it would take approx.the amount of experience that it takes to get to 28 now, to get to 25.



Smackie El Frog -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:47:42)

Hmmm sounds good to me. Taking longer to level early on will give newer players a better shot at learning the game before they start running into higher level/veterans.



RabbleFroth -> RE: Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:51:05)

To try and answer a few questions:

1) Weapons above level 25 we think are pretty well distributed and balanced because we've followed a standard way of giving them stats. Lower level weapons haven't, so they're all over the place.

2) In general it will take a bit longer to reach level 25, but as the graph shows, it won't start taking WAY longer to level after that. Of course leveling will slow down but it won't be so much of
"okay cool, leveling quick"
*hit level 25*
"OH GOD WHY"

3) About the weapons, haven't really started that part yet, but the idea isn't to directly buff or nerf anything. However, in general stats will probably come down on all of the weapons so they can smoothly progress into the weapons we're already happy with at level 25.

The idea should be that you will be able to replace equipment regularly as you level up, and a higher level weapon should pretty much always be an upgrade from a lower level weapon. Right now there's too many cases of a really good weapon at level 10 that you use until level 20 or so, or simply not being able to afford new weapons as you level. The new leveling curve will help us deal with pricing and pacing a bit better.



Basicball -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:51:05)

to add to my personal curve (y = 0,0835 x^3,9496):
this would give the following data: NOTE: needs correction on very low levels (1-10/15) to not be rediculous)

lvl - experience (total) -

1 - 0 -
2 - 1 -
3 - 6 -
4 - 20 -
5 - 48 -
6 - 99 -
7 - 182 -
8 - 308 -
9 - 490 -
10 - 744 -
11 - 1083 -
12 - 1528 -
13 - 2096 -
14 - 2808 -
15 - 3688 -
16 - 4759 -
17 - 6046 -
18 - 7577 -
19 - 9381 -
20 - 11488 -
21 - 13929 -
22 - 16739 -
23 - 19951 -
24 - 23603 -
25 - 27733 -
26 - 32379 -
27 - 37584 -
28 - 43389 -
29 - 49839 -
30 - 56980 -
31 - 64859 -
32 - 73524 -
33 - 83025 -
34 - 93410 -
35 - 104750 -
36 - 117070 -



Battle Elf -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 14:57:37)

For the graph what is the Y axis?

Seems like a great idea, glad the time to level will be a little more even :).



Basicball -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 15:01:15)

quote:

For the graph what is the Y axis

experience, on Hudelf's graph, teach horizontal line is (around) 10K exp.



Thylek Shran -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 15:06:28)

quote:

Here's a look at the difference between the old curve and the new one: http://i.imgur.com/dkZLk.png

The difference is minor. For a real change the curve has to be more flat.
25 and 30 are actually levels where you need around double as much experience
as for the level before. I would cap the experience progression to 12.000 points
which is like 1000 1vs1 wins.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 16:28:11)

When the game originated, if I am correct, the cap was only 25. The chart is reflective of that. So, just viewing that alone, the game will continue to alter this as new levels are introduced. I think having a flat rate (as Thylek mentioned) would be best option. Weapons that have the most stats should not be most sought after for. If all same level weapons have the same base stats, but positioned differently and remove enhancements (maybe adding to armor of +4/+8 enhancements for build creation with alternate weapons w/o retrain), a build will be based on collection of varied weapon types and skills. It will level out the game, and will not have issues at near cap as it always seems to be.

The first 20 levels of the game is the best experience for players, having a way to replicate that beyond will add more balance and competitive drive within skill.

Many enjoyed the beta phase, because of this reason. Simplicity.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 20:44:53)

^
Actually, I heard that in the early days of Alpha it was level 10, I wasn't around then and I'm not sure the guy I heard it from was in Alpha either. So you might be right.
When this takes affect could people go down levels? If so couldn't that make it so people can't equip any of their weapons?



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 21:29:44)

glad to see this chance coming because the fact that Mercs can still use Mjollnir at lv 32 is a problem.

Also this should fix some of that problem of lv 26 to lv 29 being a free win zone



rej -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 21:32:27)

I like it, though there really is not that huge of a difference between the older scale and the newer one.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 21:33:05)

Drats, so it still will be the hugest mountain of all ED to climb to lvl 30 with only losses. [:(] Other than that, I quite like the sound of stat revamping for lower level gear. BHs are often mentioned for their lack of Mjolnir/Caden's Wrath type of weapon.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 21:53:37)

@ND: I point out that some months ago, also the cost of mercs weapons for low lvls were quite cheap compared to bounty hunters and tech mage.
Mjolnir costs around 2300 credits and offers 25 stats and +20 damage and can be accesed at lvl 20, while caden's wrath costs 8k and offer 24 stats and + 22 damage and can be accessed at lvl 24, for me it is quite unfair, I would prefer that caden's wrath base damage was lowered to +20 damage base and be sold for 2300 as mjolnir. Same goes for any bounty hunter dagger, costs also 2300 credits and offers 24-25 stats with +20 damage base, they could make any dagger work that way. They could recycle an old weapon or make a new weapon.



ReconnaisX -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 22:05:36)

quote:

Been taking a look at item progression, and we're planning to do a pretty heavy overhaul of items before level 25 so the stats make a little more sense and get better as you level instead of specific items just being outright better than others at the same level.


There goes the Mjolnir. Quick, level up as fast as you can, it will be nerfed! (And then you hit a cliff)



Goony -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 22:44:26)

I agree with Thylek, the experience curve has to be even flatter than the new proposed curve...

You have an almost vertical line at level 30-34 now. If you add any levels you are leaving no where to go. Since the revision, of credits to experience gaind, it is a very long and slow process to gain levels. Where once you could get 200 exp per battle for 2 levels when defeating a 5 level higher opponent using exp booster and power hour, the max is now 128 exp.. The worst part is not that the max has been lowered it's the lower exp when fighting 1 level above. It used to be 24 exp, now it's 16 so cut by 1/3rd meaning that it takes so much longer to level. Power hour and boost would have given 96, now it's 64.

With the introduction of drops, the issue about players not having enough credits or weapons has been nulified to some extent. You could further relieve this by increasing drop rate, this in turn would add to the enjoyment experience of playing the game while trying to reach the level cap. It is too big a grind at the moment for the average/social gamer. I think the exp gains should double every 20 levels, will this also be part of the review?



Basicball -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 23:16:02)

@ Flatter curve people: would you be happier with a curve looking something like this? 
y = 0,0835 ((x/1.36)+9.5)^3,9496


with this, the following exp are in place:

lvl - exp

1 - 815
2 - 1072
3 - 1385
4 - 1762
5 - 2210
6 - 2739
7 - 3357
8 - 4073
9 - 4898
10 - 5842
11 - 6915
12 - 8130
13 - 9496
14 - 11028
15 - 12736
16 - 14636
17 - 16739
18 - 19059
19 - 21613
20 - 24413
21 - 27476
22 - 30817
23 - 34452
24 - 38399
25 - 42694
26 - 47294
27 - 52279
28 - 57645
29 - 64313
30 - 69601
31 - 76229
32 - 83318
33 - 90887
34 - 98960
35 - 107550
36 - 116700

NOTE: again needs some smoothening on the lower levels, but i think a general factor like -750 would help it already (just substract 750 from all above)

making the formula 
y = (0,0835 ((x/1.36)+9.5)^3,9496)-750



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 23:23:01)

That graph shows how bumpy the leveling process is and how changing it in that manner will not amount to much.

I think it should be more of a diagonal. A constant leveling approach instead of the currently massive rises as we increase our levels. This stalls levels 16 - 30 a bit with the biggest change at 25 but what about as we introduce more levels?

That graph will become extremely steep shortly... Not all players have been playing this for two years+ and what happens in another year or so when were at level 36+ for new players?

BOOM they get to level 30 then find out it takes 5+ times as much xp to gain 6 levels?



PD -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 23:29:40)

A small exponential would work better instead because that way it takes more time to get to the next level but the change is not as extreme.

I kind of dislike this change because it requires a massive amount of man hours to get to the top (Even when level 34 isn't even halfway to the cap :|)



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 23:29:47)

Something that one needs to remember is that in all games, the first few levels are easiest to get and they eventually get harder and harder as you level up. So they would naturally follow a curve such as this. No one wants to play a game where they hit level cap in the first week of playing, nor do they want to go through normal high end game experience requirements either. I wouldn't mind lowering the final experience needed to get to level cap some considering I have a "Project" that would greatly benefit from lowered experience requirements overall.



Basicball -> RE: =ED= Leveling Curve Revamp (3/13/2012 23:33:21)

well, if anyone is interested (like the devs, please do take a look), here's a comparisson between my graphs and those provided by Hudelf.

legend: (when looking at level 28 going from top to bottom)

-my latest provided graph (y = (0,0835 ((x/1.36)+9.5)^3,9496)-750)
-my first suggested graph (y = 0,0835 x^3,9496)
-Hudelfs new curve.
-The old (current) curve.

Clicky!

Any toughts? (please give your toughts, i put quite some time in making these curves)



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