What if Strike Cooled Down? (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> What if Strike Cooled Down? (3/20/2012 14:00:35)

EDIT on March 22/12
quote:

If there are no moves available, the player misses their turn, however incoming damage is reduced by 50%




Basicball -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 14:06:01)

if it had, there could be turns where you couldn't do anythig (specificaly while being a low level)




Cyberbeast10 -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 14:09:21)

If strike had cooldowns, then the strength stat would lose a LOT of value. You would essentially be killing strength builds, and a lot of low leveled players will get bored with the game.




Stabilis -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 14:23:51)

Good good, I like to see critical responses, I will get back to you in exactly 45 minutes.




Fay Beeee -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 14:39:02)

Some of my skills are used with primary. So how would it work?




Ranloth -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 14:39:52)

And maybe Energy cost to Strike? It's an attack that can miss, and of course depends on Str but you're not just trying to destroy Str-abusers but every other build. Gun and Aux has cooldown as they are unblockable, why should Strike have one too? Sometimes even that can kill for low-Str build, as last-chance attack and if it was in 'cooldown' it'd be purely not fair, useless and pointless. c:




Silent blood -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 16:13:26)

maybe level 1-10 you dont have cooldown and 20-34
you have 1(or 2) turn cool down on your primary




jack123610 -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 16:17:12)

Still dont like




Stabilis -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 16:23:46)

Cons:
  • Strength has a less frequent damage output
  • May render a player disabled
  • Strength has more uncertainty

    Pros:
  • Aspires to a current issue (Strength exploitation)
  • Balances all weapons, all relenting to a form of cooldown
  • Asserts tactile thinking with limits to exploiting offense

    Addressing Posts:

    quote:

    If it had, there could be turns where you couldn't do anythig (specificaly while being a low level)


    True, a Primary weapon is a requirement to enter a battle, at any time where it could not be used would mean that there is a possibility in which a player will be completely unable to perform any actions. Since this would be a universal issue for everyone, I would like to suggest a feature to go along with this theory. As there is a chance that all players may not be able to perform on the conditions that all weapons are cooling down plus skills are unavailable, I suggest the mechanic of exiting the timer with turn passing. If no moves are ever available, the player's turn is skipped, comparable to stun. This is in effect for all players. I would suggest this because it does nothing, it would not imbalance the game in anyway including rage as no attack is performed, but neither defence. The action would therefor be neutral, which is fine. And implement a pass turn button (not a surrender button).

    quote:

    If strike had cooldowns, then the strength stat would lose a LOT of value. You would essentially be killing strength builds, and a lot of low leveled players will get bored with the game.


    As we do change something infinite to finite, there is very much value lost. I would not say that I intend or applicably kill the Strength stat, as the damage remains the same, but the ability to use Strike changes. Strength possesses 2 weapons to note, a Primary and Sidearm, whereas Support and Focus have but 1 weapon of choice. You may think low levelled players would get bored, but missing a turn does not change the gameplay negatively or positively as long as both players have an equal opportunity to miss a turn.

    quote:

    Some of my skills are used with primary. So how would it work?


    Oh, I see my documentation error, what I should have said was if Strike had a cooldown. So because of the difference as skills between Strike and some skill such as Intimidate, they would not share the same cooldown, therefor Strike does not affect melee skills, so you would still be able to use those skills.

    quote:

    And maybe Energy cost to Strike? It's an attack that can miss, and of course depends on Str but you're not just trying to destroy Str-abusers but every other build. Gun and Aux has cooldown as they are unblockable, why should Strike have one too? Sometimes even that can kill for low-Str build, as last-chance attack and if it was in 'cooldown' it'd be purely not fair, useless and pointless. c:


    Strike should have a cooldown because if not considering blocking, Strikes deal 4 times more damage than an Auxiliary even though Auxiliaries have the same stat progressions. Because of the cooldown, Auxiliaries are limited in being exploited, allowing tactics to unfold in between shots. For Strikes it can be 4 Strikes in a row and dealing more damage. I would find that imbalanced when considering 2 offensive stats that should be equally weighted but somehow there is a huge gap because of a difference in manifolds. If anything, Strikes should have the same cooldown as Support and have equal damage at equal stat levels. In doing this, Support would be stripped of some of it's chance attributes such as critical strike. About relying on Strike to win a battle... if a player ever relied on 1 attack alone to defeat their enemy, that would be ignorant of variety, although they are free to design themselves as they see fit. What if one only relied on Auxiliaries to defeat the enemy? If the person would have won with an Auxiliary shot but it was in cooldown, I find the power imbalance or strategy at fault, not the layout of the available skills. That can be freely controlled.




  • Mr. Black OP -> RE: What if a Primary Weapon Had Cooldown? (3/20/2012 17:25:00)

    No, guns and auxiliaries already are balanced.
    Guns have about the same damage as a primary but they are unblockable and have a cool down to balance it out.
    Auxiliaries have even more damage then primaries and guns are unblockable also but to balance it out they have an even longer cool down.

    Strength: Primary and sidearm damage
    Dexterity: Defense, chance to block, higher chance to hit
    Technology: Resistance, chance to deflect, robot damage, higher to not get deflected
    Support: Auxiliary damage, critical strikes, resistance to stun, chance to go first

    Basically the other stats do more than just raw damage.




    ND Mallet -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/20/2012 17:34:34)

    It's a very fine line between when you should incorporate luck into an argument and when you shouldn't incorporate it. The fact that Strike is completely blockable means it should have more advantage than an unblockable aux which improves with support and can only be reduced by 50% damage. Like it's been pointed out, many players will be unable to do anything for at least 1 turn unless they're a CH, TM, or TLM and can keep using skills from their energy regen to wait for a cooldown to open up. There is a reason you have to have a Primary to battle and that is because the Staff want to make sure you will always have a turn to attack with regardless of all outside factors excluding a stun.

    To put it simply, your idea would demolish Strength builds but at what cost? The cost would be less players because they get too frustrated at having to skip several turns in one battle when they first start the game. Your ideas do work out often enough but they also have heavy costs to them that will ruin the playerbase of ED or creativity(talking about no skills improving with stats here). Try looking at the big picture and how your ideas affect everything aside from the problems you're attempting to fix. Anyone could easily fix a problem with one class if they didn't have to worry about the other 5 classes as well.




    Midnightsoul -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/20/2012 19:47:57)

    How about a new stat called stamina.
    The more you use a primary move like massacre, strike, zerker, or cheap shot in a row, it will start to cost energy.

    1 in a row-none
    2 in a row-25% dmg back to you on your energy
    3 in a row-half dmg back to you on your energy
    4 in a row-100% dmg back to you on your energy

    So if I was a bloodmage
    I struck 40 on my first turn. 0 energy lost
    I struck 40 on my second turn. 10 energy gone
    I struck 40 on my third turn. 20 energy gone/30 energy lost in total
    I struck 40 on my fourth turn. 40 energy gone/70 energy lost in total




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/20/2012 20:21:18)

    ^
    So massacre will be the only ultimate effected AGAIN?
    Can't we leave strike alone? BMs just gun, fireball, zerk, gun, strike and by the time they get to strike they used all their energy so your idea wouldn't work in that case.
    CH won't be as affected either, malfunction (strike one), static charge (they gain 4%), gun, massacre (strike one), static charge (gain 4%), gun. It just penalizes BH and our strength builds aren't as dominant.
    Some people also use strike strategically, for instance: he has a DM up, so if I use strike over and over again I'll build up rage and be able to use a powerful attack.




    Remorse -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/20/2012 22:08:13)

    I Like the stanima idea :O

    But instead of an eneregy cost.

    What if it was a dmagae reduction cost for example:

    Strike once : 0% dmagae redcution.
    Strike twice in a row: 5% damage reduction.
    strike 3 times in a row: 10%
    strike 4 times in a row: 20%
    strike 5 times in a row: 40%
    strike 6 times in a row 40%(maximum is 40% dmagae redcution.)

    Something like this.







    Stabilis -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/20/2012 22:23:52)

    quote:

    No, guns and auxiliaries already are balanced.


    Balanced would mean having the same damage output. Sidearm example: 20 damage every 3 turns... Auxiliary example: 25 damage every 4 turns...

    First Turn: Sidearm = 20 damage /// Auxiliary = 25 damage

    Fifth Turn: Sidearm = 40 damage /// Auxiliary = 50 damage

    Ninth Turn: Sidearm = 40 damage /// Auxiliary = 75 damage

    Thirteenth Turn: Sidearm = 80 damage /// Auxiliary = 75 damage

    If I was to graph this, it would be a linear slope and Sidearms would have a steeper slope than that of Auxiliaries.

    Slope of Sidearm damage over time: 6.66

    Slope of Auxiliary damage over time: 6.25

    Therefor, even at equal damage (if that was even possible), the Sidearms over time have a greater damage output due to cooldowns. This is why I suggest repairing cooldowns.


    And this isn't even explaining Primary weapons, but Sidearms belong to Strength. Strength gains 2 powerful weapons, Support gains 1. Balanced? I beg to differentiate.

    quote:

    Auxiliaries have even more damage then primaries and guns are unblockable also but to balance it out they have an even longer cool down.


    I have proved that to be inadequate with the above information. But thank you for pointing something interesting out. Auxiliaries were designed with a damage advantage over Primary weapons (currently 5 points). Over time, as weapon damage increases, 5 points becomes a minuscule boost, especially in the event of a 70 damage Primary VS. a 75 damage Auxiliary. The difference in cooldown proves the small unscaled bonus to be futile. If not repaired, at least have the Auxiliary bonus level scaled... to match Primary weapons, the mortal enemy of Support. I find that Strength is much too advantageous given 2 weapons of choice with today's standards. A Primary and a Sidearm give a player elemental seeking with the ability to decide between Physical and Energy, whereas Auxiliaries do not. This can conclude as an enormous damage boost.

    quote:

    Basically the other stats do more than just raw damage.


    Technology and Dexterity are excluded as they have no weapon of choice. Support's attributes aside from the Auxiliary are all luck really, next to rage. Luck is not reliable data. I still stand on the fact that Primaries and Sidearms are overpowered towards Auxiliaries.

    quote:

    The fact that Strike is completely blockable means it should have more advantage than an unblockable aux which improves with support and can only be reduced by 50% damage.


    See the above vindication above damage over time comparing Strength weapons to Support weapons.

    quote:

    Like it's been pointed out, many players will be unable to do anything for at least 1 turn unless they're a CH, TM, or TLM and can keep using skills from their energy regen to wait for a cooldown to open up. There is a reason you have to have a Primary to battle and that is because the Staff want to make sure you will always have a turn to attack with regardless of all outside factors excluding a stun.


    Why not defend instead of just attacking?

    Defend: If no battle options are available, skip the player's turn and reduce all incoming damage by 50%.

    If you do not find passing a turn favourable. Unless you have something "better" to suggest.

    quote:

    To put it simply, your idea would demolish Strength builds but at what cost?


    There is no demolishing cost, Strength builds are not demolished, simply, their ability to output constant damage is limited. This would bring Strike down to par with at the very least... Sidearms.

    quote:

    The cost would be less players because they get too frustrated at having to skip several turns in one battle when they first start the game.


    Again ND, this concept is universal for all players. So long as a player spends and battles wisely, there is no more chance to lose turns than there is for the enemy to.

    quote:

    Your ideas do work out often enough but they also have heavy costs to them that will ruin the playerbase of ED or creativity (talking about no skills improving with stats here).


    Thank you for the complimentary comment. I try to avoid ruining creativity at all costs. It is an art. Skills not improving with stats is destructive? Blasphemy! That concept was intently designed to combat the exploitation of pure offence players that hinder the tactfulness of less aggressive players. Defending for majority of the match just to lose is no fun, especially when the enemy possesses Bloodlust to fatalistically overpower their target into a corner like a punching bag.

    quote:

    Try looking at the big picture and how your ideas affect everything aside from the problems you're attempting to fix.


    I will try even harder. Hopefully I will not obtain a migraine.




    quote:

    1 in a row-none
    2 in a row-25% dmg back to you on your energy
    3 in a row-half dmg back to you on your energy
    4 in a row-100% dmg back to you on your energy

    So if I was a bloodmage
    I struck 40 on my first turn. 0 energy lost
    I struck 40 on my second turn. 10 energy gone
    I struck 40 on my third turn. 20 energy gone/30 energy lost in total
    I struck 40 on my fourth turn. 40 energy gone/70 energy lost in total


    quote:

    What if it was a dmagae reduction cost for example:

    Strike once : 0% dmagae redcution.
    Strike twice in a row: 5% damage reduction.
    strike 3 times in a row: 10%
    strike 4 times in a row: 20%
    strike 5 times in a row: 40%
    strike 6 times in a row 40%(maximum is 40% dmagae redcution.)

    Something like this.


    Supported to the maximum. Why? I have suggested this before 'v'. If I find my original balance post I will paste it here.




    Stabilis -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/20/2012 23:05:53)

    EDITED to address some responses ^^^^^




    Colarndo -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/21/2012 2:11:20)

    Yes cooldown and Varium users will win with yeti bot.




    K.Raza -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/21/2012 2:27:59)

    Why do I have a feeling this will never be agreed to?




    Fay Beeee -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/21/2012 4:21:24)

    I have another query.
    The builds I have used lately make my guns a bit weak so I rarely use my gun a lot. Surely this would make me got he 'high focus' way.?




    warfarfick -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/21/2012 5:52:04)

    This is impossible. xD Imagine low level players without sidearms and auxiliary weapons. Staring each other in the eye while waiting for strike to cooldown. Important time will be wasted.




    Silent blood -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/21/2012 8:16:39)

    ^ thats why i said start the cooldown at level 10 or higher :P




    Drianx -> RE: What if Strike Could Cooldown? (3/21/2012 8:33:30)

    I'd rather say:
    - Make Strike have 1 turn cooldown
    - Reduce Gun cooldown to 1 turn

    This way someone can always have either Strike or Gun available, and STR builds will be affected as long as the player does not use same type of damage for primary and gun.




    IsaiahtheMage -> RE: What if Strike Cooled Down? (3/21/2012 9:58:49)

    No. This would cause low level players to quit and it would kill str builds for good. It would also affect everyone as people would have to be wasting valuable time waiting for strike to cooldown if they just used their aux,gun, and bot.




    Rui.. -> RE: What if Strike Cooled Down? (3/21/2012 10:09:28)

    sure give strike 2 or 3 turn cooldown but then strike should be "unblockable".




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: What if Strike Cooled Down? (3/21/2012 10:13:33)

    ^
    Strike IS blockable.
    quote:

    Can't we leave strike alone? BMs just gun, fireball, zerk, gun, strike and by the time they get to strike they used all their energy so your idea wouldn't work in that case.
    CH won't be as affected either, malfunction (strike one), static charge (they gain 4%), gun, massacre (strike one), static charge (gain 4%), gun. It just penalizes BH and our strength builds aren't as dominant.

    Nobody responded to my post about strike requiring energy if used consecutively.




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