RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 13:38:31)

Ch shuts me down on almost all my characters if they Tank with EMP. I just don't fully believe the balance trackers numbers when
it comes to CH. maybe their are many "bad" CH stinking up the numbers. or it could be the fact they tend to take ages winning.

another question about the balance tracker, does it count NPC battles?




Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 13:42:13)

Why not simply increase the cooldown on EMP? seeing as it's the only EP draining skill that can't be blocked a significantly longer (maybe 2 turns extra) cooldown would help alleviate its build wrecking power.
This change wouldn't really impact anyone except those that loop EMP.




Digital X -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 13:50:30)

@Dreiko, if the EMP Cooldown was significantly longer as you said, 2 turns, would that not effect every EMP user even slightly still? But more-so the EMP loopers?




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 13:53:54)

If Cyber Hunters only had a better Static Charge then passive skills and overpowered active skills (Malfunction, EMP, Massacre), could all be removed if not nerfed. Our class is an energy class, skills that cost energy are not an issue... you know, before these extreme choices of nerfs specifically though the SC reduction. If we went back 6 months to the more original Cyber Hunter, I would still be there saying that Cyber Hunters would be better off switching Technician for Energy Shield because let's face it, we were hammered, screwed, nailed, sheared, any tool you can name we took it to the face because we relied on our STRATEGIES without Shadow Arts because that skill obviously lifted none of it's own weight, a deadweight. We cannot have both Massacre and a defensive nerfer such as Malfunction as Massacre always hits 20+ and Malfunction only unleashes even more from Massacre. The final ritual is using Static Charge to do it all over again.

The class was not balanced! It was overpowered offensively while defensively underpowered. Right now we assume that Plasma Armour balances us even. In some perspectives that is true but where is the strategy in a passive like that? Plasma Armour is ≈ to an extra turn of overpowered offense since using a SKILL that costs ENERGY is not required to protect the Resistance of a Cyber Hunter.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 13:57:06)

Cooldown could definitely work, Dreiko. Making it long (4-5 turns) or once per battle would be good as it's unblockable and strong enough. But then we gotta look at Atom Smasher which can do the same but miss, should the cooldown stay the same for the fact it can miss? It's Tier 4 skill by the way so that also matters. ^^




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 14:08:23)

If a skill is overpowered, staff should contemplate their options.

They can:

  • Change the power

  • Change the requirements

  • Change the energy costs

  • Change the skill with another skill

  • Change the cooldowns

  • Change the selectiveness

  • Really anything (within common sense)

    Of the 6 mentioned, the first 3 happen very often, requirements being the most used path.

    Any comments?




  • supermasivo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 14:36:36)

    iM TOTALLY SURE THAT THE ONLY COMPLAINERS ABOUT ENERGY EMP are: Blood mages and regular mercs... dont ya... specially BMs... QQ tot hem :p




    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:15:06)

    I'll add my TM with 78 Energy which is looped to 0 often but I have good damage to counter that with DA and highish Support.
    The issue isn't with classes that cannot regain EP thus ranting, but CHs looping EMP which is sad. EMP was fine when it was just BHs owning it, CHs destroyed the skill so they must either nerf it or take it away from CH's skill tree.

    Issue is still an issue, you CHs demanded a buff yet some people might've said you shouldn't get it (and were right but screw that..) so we have every right to want a change as well. ;)




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:16:35)

    LOLs. I feel EMP is balanced.

    I have a question. We were using EMP LONG before PA came out, now it is considered OP because of PA. Instead of nerfing an original skill, how about you nerf PA. There we go, problem solved because Cyber's EMP wasn't called OP even when we had Technician to possible MAKE it OP.






    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:18:46)

    Read above post raynie.. ;)
    And nerf PA = nerf Mineral. Not sure how Hybrid Armor would stand as they all add up to same values but split. Just take the skill out or raise its cooldown by about twice as much of what it is now, it's a strategical skill not one to abuse.




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:23:00)

    I know Trans :) I just miss having technician. There were do many possible builds with it.




    BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:37:58)

    shields become usable once per match :3




    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:45:17)

    Only because it doesn't affect Mercs, doesn't mean it'll be good. They are efficient counters hence they are here, and for using them and getting high defences, you gain Rage quicker which is a counter against that Shield so it technically all averages out in the end. Of course that wouldn't be a problem of once per battle, with 3-4 turn battles that is. As abusers will get nerfed, that idea would be similar to that of PA so no thankyou. ;)

    @below
    Pivotal mentioned it 5 hrs ago: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20273696




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 15:47:07)

    To everyone. Looks like no more Nerfs on Cyber! :)


    quote:

    EDIT: For anyone it's unclear to, I'm referring to the last CH nerf, currently there is no plan for another, since they have a fair ratio with the other classes!

    < Message edited by Lycus -- 4/26/2012 5:52:43 >




    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 16:24:45)

    ▼▼▼▼
    ENERGY:
    ▲▲▲▲


    In my own opinion, I think that each class should be balanced when it comes to energy. What and how? To begin, a principle rule of balance is to weigh each side... for the case of energy, skills that create energy and skills that destroy energy.

    Before that, even, why should we care about energy and energy skills??? Well, each and every player has skills, thus skill points. Some skills cost energy and some do not. For the skills that do, balance must be taken care of for both the delivery and receiving ends... otherwise... you risk harming the balanced nature of all skills in general if one option ends up obliterating a player's energy source or maximizing their own.

    To balance energy input and output, we must first observe the skills involving energy gain and depletion in each class.

    Bounty Hunter:

    EMP Grenade

    Tech Mage:

    Reroute, Assimilation

    Mercenary:

    Atom Smasher

    Cyber Hunter:

    Static Charge, EMP Grenade

    Blood Mage:

    NONE

    Tactical Mercenary:

    Reroute, Atom Smasher



    I can already see imbalances of energy control, can you? Not only does 1 of the 6 classes have NO means of energy control, but 3 of the 6 have both forms... therefor I should investigate the power balances between them... that is the next step.

    Reroute + Assimilation:

    We shall simulate that the average amount of damage per turn is 13 (minimal damage @ critical strike). Reroute at maximum power would therefor account for 4 energy each turn. Assimilation at maximum power would account for 18 energy every 4 turns, therefor 4.5 energy each turn.

    In total, this theoretical combo of energy exchange is 8.5 energy per turn.

    Static Charge + EMP Grenade:

    We shall simulate that the average amount of Strength and Technology is proportionally 50 for both. And weapons are +34 damage. Static Charge at maximum power would therefor account for 14 energy every 3 turns, therefor 4.66 energy each turn. EMP Grenade at maximum power would account for 39 energy every 3 turns, therefor 13 energy each turn.

    In total, this theoretical combo of energy exchange is 17.66 energy per turn.

    Reroute + Atom Smasher:

    Simulating that the average amount of damage is 13 and that weapons are +34 damage and Strength is 50... Reroute at maximum power would therefor account for 4 energy each turn. Atom Smasher at maximum power would account for 35 energy every 3 turns, therefor 11.66 energy each turn.

    In total, this theoretical combo of energy exchange is 15.66 energy per turn.



    EMP Grenade:

    13 energy per turn.

    Atom Smasher:

    11.66 energy per turn.



    Recap---

    TM: 8.5 energy/turn

    BH: 13 energy/turn

    M: 11.66 energy/turn

    BM: N/A

    CH: 17.66 energy/turn

    TacM: 15.66 energy/turn




    So with this simulation of numbers, each class has a different value of energy being renewed or demolished. This will clearly create a power imbalance when considering skills... who will use the most skills and who the least? Blood Mages are in the frying pan for lacking any moves of this sort. They will not overcome any other player in an energy duel... EVER, unless staff acts swift, and correctly. If any of my data examples are way out of range please inform me and I will change them right away.

    In real battles though, these numbers should be EQUAL between all classes. The determining factor of differences is how these skills are used and how they work. Thanks for reading.




    drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 20:41:40)

    CH keeping Plasma. So.. its staying, but does that mean we can't modify the skill?




    Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 21:10:29)

    Hey guys I have a great idea.

    Buff Plasma Armor up to +20 Resistance at level 1, and make it cap at +60 resistance at level 10. Then proceed to take away EMP and replace it with "Skip Turn".

    No in all seriousness, I agree with Rayniedays, who even brought up the "EMP NADE OP PL0X NERF>>>>?" Seriously, NOT OP AT ALL. I use EMP and it doesn't have THAT big of an affect on battle. Heck against BMs I don't EMP because they still have enough for Zerker/Fireball at least, and it doesn't help me at all. More times than not it just prolonged the battle but was still relatively fair then turning it into my favor.




    drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 21:14:06)

    No, I think the problem was Tanking CHs looping EMP.

    They can EMP loop to prevent people from dealing damage Assault Bot away their defensive problems and turtle their way out of a match.




    Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 21:17:02)

    I don't meet tanking CH, I mostly see STR BM or DEX/TECH TM with Plasma Bolt + Plasma Rain + Overload combo. When I do see a CH it's more of a STR CH build, so I don't quite understand. I've never been EMPed more than twice in a battle. And that was when we were copying each other kuz we had similar builds.

    Idea; Rework TM tree, right now Bolt Rain Overload are all on same side, why not mix it up? Move the skills around the tree a little more?




    drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 21:18:13)

    By the way, why did they change Plasma Rain? Now its the same thing as Multi-Shot, except the animation...




    ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 21:22:49)

    Hey guys, you know how many times my ch has used emp in the last 100 battles? 0 Know how many times I have been emp'ed? maybe 4. Know how many times it changed the outcome of the match? 0 The only classes it hurts are bm and merc. In my opinion bm deserves to be emp'ed if they are using a strength build, which is 95 percent of you. Mercs, I already agree that you need a way to regain energy. But honestly, apart from a select few abusers, I don't see that it is overpowered. bh has had it for Years, and it was just fine. [8D]




    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 21:53:57)

    As one of the older Cyber Hunters I do use today a level 2 EMP Grenade at 29 energy depleted. I use EMP in the following goals for each class:

    Bounty Hunter:

    I use EMP to shut off their remaining energy reserve after they smoke which prior to the assault ranges from 60 to 33 energy. One EMP will ruin their options to Smokescreen again or use Massacre against me. This often splits their damage in half.

    Tech Mage:

    Reroute increases the difficulty of ruining Tech Mages with EMP, but it is still very convenient. I can control THEIR Reroute, afterall, it relies on MY damage. If they can use Field Medic or Plasma Rain after even 1 damage and my EMP is cooling down, I have the freedom to stall for that turn so that they cannot use such skills when I CAN use EMP. Controlling the battle is more in my favour this way.

    Mercenary:

    EMP will ruin the capability of nearly every skill that Mercenaries own... EMP is extremely effective against Mercenaries.

    Cyber Hunter:

    EMP is either never used or always used whenever 2 Cyber Hunters battle. When it comes down to it, the battle is decided by which player has the best damage:defence:health tri-ratio. Field Medic is the main skill that Cyber Hunters try to ruin in each other. Static Charge is a Dexterity war.

    Blood Mage:

    See Mercenaries, except the damage output by Blood Mages is very intimidating and often difficult to defend from if not relying on blocks via Dexterity.

    Tactical Mercenaries:

    See Tech Mage, although Mineral Armour makes controlling Reroute via damage even easier.






    Yes, I find EMP imbalanced on many occasions since we have it ALWAYS available.




    drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 22:02:09)

    Hmmm.

    For Mercenaries, people have been saying Adrenaline isn't that useful as a passive.

    What if, we introduce a passive EP gain, not based on DMG or anything?

    Introducing:

    Stamina:

    Passive, Requires 18 Supp, +2 Per LV, replaces Adrenaline

    LV01: +4% of EP Pool per turn
    LV02: +5% of EP Pool per turn
    LV03: +6% of EP Pool per turn
    LV04: +7% of EP Pool per turn
    LV05: +8% of EP Pool per turn
    LV06: +9% of EP Pool per turn
    LV07: +10% of EP Pool per turn
    LV08: +11% of EP Pool per turn
    LV09: +12% of EP Pool per turn
    LV10: +13% of EP Pool per turn




    ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 22:07:44)

    Would definetly help them out a lot. Sounds like a good idea to me, but what do I know? lol




    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/26/2012 22:15:14)

    @Drinde,

    The rate you used, managed by total energy, is a good idea. If the increase is stagnant, it would benefit players with less of a total energy count in contrast to players with a greater total energy count. One issue with energy restoration... is if this skill will permit a reliable energy flux that can be exploited with defence like Field Medic or offence like Bunker Buster.

    Hm, it is a great idea, but perhaps a stagnant value in energy restoration would be more ideal. Giving the player control over their skills is key, but preventing any chance to exploit a battle deciding factor is priority.

    Other than that the idea is well-formed and it's heart is in the right place. Requirements would not be necessary though 'b', I'm sure that there are enough of those to go around that most people have moderate Support requirements.

    Scarletreaper

    Scarletninja




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