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4/14/2012 13:02:24   
Practel
Spectating from the Sidelines
=ED= Balance Discussion Thread


All balance discussions will be restricted to this thread. This is to condense the many issues that you have all expressed into a single place that the balance people can work on.

Please keep all balance discussions in this thread, and don't forget to follow the forum's rules.

Some things that the balancers would like you to avoid discussing. Please do not post about the following things.
quote:

No discussion/request for buffing or enhancing Founder Armor - Any additional perks that founders may recieve will be at the discretion of the staff.

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.


quote:

As a general rule, no buffs will be granted to rare items. This is regardless of their status as Limited, Seasonal, Promotional, etc. In order to achieve a more balanced system of play, buffs cannot be guaranteed or handed out on a regular basis. This policy has been decided by the game staff and is not likely to change. However, if you feel that your case is especially strong, that is, you have numbers and evidence to support your conclusions, you are welcome to contact the game staff using this forum's PM system to discuss it more thoroughly. Keep in mind that the game staff cannot promise that your case will be followed through upon, as the game's balance will take precedence over personal requests for the sake of all of the game's vast player base.

In regards to this discussion thread, you are still permitted to discuss buffs to rare items, but these discussions must be placed within this thread.


If you disagree with these policies, please send Lord Barrius a PM and the issue will be discuss. DO NOT post in this thread to protest these things, your post will be deleted and you will be issued punishments for breaking the rules.


=ED= Balance Discussions I
=ED= Balance Discussions II
=ED= Balance Discussion III
=ED= Balance Discussion IV
=ED= Balance Disussion V
=ED= Balance Discussion VI
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/14/2012 13:08:44   
Stabilis
Member

A Cyber Hunter Repairs Wishlist:

i) Sections

►Remove Plasma Armour: HIGH priority... (armours are a substitute for stat points, classes without armours do not receive equal opportunity for stats)

►Remove Shadow Arts: HIGH priority... (unreliable)

►Remove Cheap Shot: HIGH priority... (the constant attributes [defense ignore] is too minimal, and the luck in critical hits is unreliable)

►Remove EMP... (for these new skills, we need more room. The main reasoning behind removing EMP Grenade is that Cyber Hunters have the most masterful control over energy, making skill use imbalanced for enemies)

►Replace Malfunction with Trans' Conduction or Malfunction to improve by Dexterity... (this places Malfunction and Smokescreen on equal terms)

►Insert Plasma Aura... (passively shocks enemies to give Cyber Hunters some reassurance against Primary attacks)

►Insert Cyber Arts... (passive Primary accuracy and poison resistance. Since we then lack armour but also health/energy control, poison resistance and accuracy for Static Charge will be very helpful without harming anyone else)

►Insert Blue Ruin... (cheap shot is expensive for skill points, and the luck in critical hits is unreliable, and this is a strategy game, so this skill is comparable to Double Strike)

►Insert Energy Shield: HIGH priority... (gives more Resistance than Technician, and armour skills compensate the need to allocate points into stats. Since 4 Dexterity = approximately 1 Defense, 11 Defense from Mineral Armour = aproximately 44 Dexterity)

►Massacre becomes Physical for Cyber Hunters... (or insert a new Physical Ultimate skill for Cyber Hunters. Malfunction and Conduction both synergize with Energy attacks, Massacre can be selective to be either Energy or Physical, since ultimate skills hit above 20 points of damage, they should not be able to be exploited by other offensive skills that permit instant death)

►Edit Static Charge... (too little energy, it is only exploited by Strength builds)

ii) Descriptions of New Skills

▼Plasma Aura▼

If a user of Plasma Aura is struck by a Primary weapon, the attacker is dealt bonus shock damage. Plasma Aura will not reduce health below 1.

Level 1: Attacker takes 1% of their total health in damage.
Level 2: Attacker takes 2% of their total health in damage.
Level 3: Attacker takes 3% of their total health in damage.
Level 4: Attacker takes 4% of their total health in damage.
Level 5: Attacker takes 5% of their total health in damage.
Level 6: Attacker takes 6% of their total health in damage.
Level 7: Attacker takes 7% of their total health in damage.
Level 8: Attacker takes 8% of their total health in damage.
Level 9: Attacker takes 9% of their total health in damage.
Level 10: Attacker takes 10% of their total health in damage.

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: replaces Plasma Armour
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 0

quote:

The ND Mallet Guy brought to me a great point: what if a player exploits a defensive build to minimize their incoming damage and have greater outgoing damage (enemy hits you for 3 damage, and every turn Plasma Aura hits 10 damage)? I have devised my own little logic for this situation:

during the enemy's attack----
attacknegate = player with Plasma Aura's Defense - enemy Primary damage + minimum Strength damage...
if attacknegate <= 3:
_____Plasma Aura = False

Therefor enemies will not be shocked by Plasma Aura if their minimum Primary damage is the minimal value accepted... 3.


▼Cyber Arts▼

Passively increases the Primary hit rate and resistance to poison.

Level 1: 1% increase to Primary accuracy and 10% resistance to poison
Level 1: 2% increase to Primary accuracy and 15% resistance to poison
Level 1: 3% increase to Primary accuracy and 20% resistance to poison
Level 1: 4% increase to Primary accuracy and 25% resistance to poison
Level 1: 5% increase to Primary accuracy and 30% resistance to poison
Level 1: 6% increase to Primary accuracy and 35% resistance to poison
Level 1: 7% increase to Primary accuracy and 40% resistance to poison
Level 1: 8% increase to Primary accuracy and 44% resistance to poison
Level 1: 9% increase to Primary accuracy and 47% resistance to poison
Level 1: 10% increase to Primary accuracy and 50% resistance to poison.

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: replaces Shadow Arts
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 0

▼Blue Ruin▼

Assail an enemy with 2 devastating strikes with the held Primary weapon. The player using Blue Ruin is charged with blue plasma.

Energy Required:

Level 1: 14
Level 2: 16
Level 3: 18
Level 4: 20
Level 5: 22
Level 6: 24
Level 7: 26
Level 8: 28
Level 9: 30
Level 10: 32

Damage Progressions:

Level 1: 23% more damage
Level 2: 26% more damage
Level 3: 29% more damage
Level 4: 32% more damage
Level 5: 35% more damage
Level 6: 38% more damage
Level 7: 41% more damage
Level 8: 44% more damage
Level 9: 47% more damage
Level 10: 50% more damage

Weapon Required: Wrist blades or Sword
Stat Required: None
Level Required: replaces Cheap Shot
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2

▼Energy Shield▼

Increases energy resistance for you or an ally during combat.

Energy Required:

Level 1: 12
Level 2: 14
Level 3: 16
Level 4: 18
Level 5: 20
Level 6: 22
Level 7: 24
Level 8: 26
Level 9: 28
Level 10: 30

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: replaces Malfunction
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2

[A Trans Suggestion] Conduction: Strike and reduce the enemy's Resistance.

(Resistance does not affect Deflection nor skills, but generally determines Energy damage)

Energy Required:

Level 1: 14
Level 2: 16
Level 3: 18
Level 4: 20
Level 5: 22
Level 6: 24
Level 7: 26
Level 8: 28
Level 9: 30
Level 10: 32

Resistance Scaling:

Level 1: Reduce Target's Resistance by 1 Point.
Level 2: Reduce Target's Resistance by 3 Point.
Level 3: Reduce Target's Resistance by 5 Point.
Level 4: Reduce Target's Resistance by 7 Point.
Level 5: Reduce Target's Resistance by 9 Point.
Level 6: Reduce Target's Resistance by 10 Point.
Level 7: Reduce Target's Resistance by 11 Point.
Level 8: Reduce Target's Resistance by 12 Point.
Level 9: Reduce Target's Resistance by 13 Point.
Level 10: Reduce Target's Resistance by 14 Point.

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: replaces EMP
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 1

Static Charge: Static Charge currently improves in scaling to Primary weapon damage + Strength damage. This can be exploited by Strength users who only need Malfunction and Massacre to play without tactile thinking.

It has become a high priority to me now to suggest an edit to Static Charge to restore the class to all balance. Here it is:

Static Charge: A percentage of your Primary weapon's damage is added to your energy in a Strike. Energy restoration is unblockable, however damage is blockable. Cool-down has increased.

Energy Required: 0 (No Cost)

Conversion:
Level 1: 33% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 2: 36% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 3: 39% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 4: 42% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 5: 45% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 6: 48% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 7: 51% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 8: 54% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 9: 57% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 10: 60% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 2
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 4



Current Stat Attributes:

quote:

Strength: Increases base damage range of Primary, Sidearm, and enhances certain skills.
Dexterity: Increases physical defense, increases the chance to block, and enhances certain skills.
Technology: Increases energy resistance, deflect, robot damage and enhances certain skills.
Support: Increases base damage range of Auxiliaries, increases chance to go first, critical strike, and rage rate; reduces chance to be stunned and enhances certain skills.


Suggested Stat Attributes:

quote:

Strength: Increases base damage range of Primary, and rage rate.
Dexterity: Increases chance to block, accuracy of Primary, chance to dodge (50%), accuracy of Sidearm (50%), accuracy of Auxiliary (50%), and accuracy of Ancillary (50%).
Technology: Increases base damage range of Sidearm, base damage range of Robot, base damage range of Auxiliary (50%), and base damage range of Ancillary (50%).
Support: Increases base damage range of Auxiliary (50%), base damage range of Ancillary (50%), and improves buff skills (Defense Matrix, Field Commander, Reflex Boost, etc).
Defense: Increases physical defense.
Resistance: Increases energy resistance.
Luck: Manages stun chance, increases critical strike, chance to go first, chance to dodge (50%), accuracy of Sidearm (50%), accuracy of Auxiliary (50%), and accuracy of Ancillary (50%).
Focus: Increases accuracy of Robot, and charge.


50% ► the highlighted attribute improves at only half of the normal rate (normal: attribute increases by 1% per 4 stat points/ 50%: attribute increases by 1% per 8 stat points)
Dodge ► a ranged weapon can completely miss, comparable to blocking
Charge ► the level of a Robot's special, the higher the charge level, the more effective the special will be

8 stat point are distributed each level. Ancillaries are a new weapon, and have been designed for Support to supplement a second source of outgoing damage as Sidearms have for Strength. They have one more turn of cool-down than Auxiliaries, at 5 turns.

THE NEW STAT PROGRESSIONS

Steps towards further fixing balance:


  1. Remove or Change Agility



    • Agility is for managing players who used both high levels of health and decent levels of damage output. I do not believe that high levels of health was as much of an issue as defeating players within 5 turns or forcing Focus to work around 95 health at 45 equalized stat points for each stat. The health difference, but same damage meant that whoever had more health was more likely to win. The problem I would have to say was Strength and Supports damage progressions along with the universal cool-downs of the weapons. Also, agility's role on rage is another factor. Rage can be calculated by the value of damage taken. Because agility can increase damage, agility allows players at high levels of health to accumulate rage faster. If you need my opinion please ask me.



  2. Remove or Change Encumbrance



    • Encumbrance allows lower level players to compete with higher level players, and also to save on item costs, by allowing their weapons to be handled with only reduced damage. This is not enough of a balance though, as stats themselves are not compromised. Lower levelled players are fundamentally more lucky, and they do not need weapon damage or armour points to administer skills improving with stats. Exploiting stats only becomes more of an issue with a growing player-base and new releases. If you need my opinion please ask me.



  3. Remove or Change Enhancements



    • Enhancements were meant as a bonus to give players the opportunity to... empower themselves further. I find that this does null to help in the ongoing issue of stat exploitation. If you need my opinion please ask me (but definitely ask Remorse).



  4. Change Focus



    • Focus benefits players who chose to balance their stats, and to add diversity to EpicDuel. I agree that this is a nice addition, however even Focus can have issues. Because Focus is not it's own stat, it's own mechanics rely on all 4 of the basic stats. In this way it is very difficult for staff to determine the abilities of Focus when the present issue may lie in one of it's own foundations, Strength for example. I recommend highly to split Focus in making it it's own stat. This is an indefinite suggestion.



  5. Remove Stat Requirements



    • Stat requirements are a band-aid to demote the use and exploitation of stat points. Requirements attack diversity by promoting Focus. If stats are imbalanced, change the stat progressions, and band-aids can be taken off. This is an indefinite suggestion.



  6. Remove Skill Improving Stats



    • Improving stats skills give stats another meaning besides forming the character, which was "supposed" to have things more diversified by having stat points be operators of skill power. However, both stats and skills are fundamental concepts, and when they directly link, there is a power imbalance. For example, Tactical Mercenaries had used to own a Support improving Field Medic, Artillery, a Reroute to refuel these skills, and a regular Auxiliary to backup damage. When staff decided to stop improving Field Medic with Support, I absolutely saw positive changes. This is an indefinite suggestion.




Questions? I will try to answer them.
Comments? Feedback is appreciated.
Suggestions? With enough reasoning, I will consider your suggestions and add them. You will be credited.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/14/2012 14:31:16 >

_____________________________
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
4/14/2012 13:17:13   
Hun Kingq
Member

So as we can see the change to the tech mage has caused a change to the Blood Mage so either the Blood Mage could have a high dex build be vulnerable to energy attacks or a high tech build allowing them to only have one skill with power and weak weapons. The one very thing that made the Blood Mage unique was the Plasma Cannon so if they want a multi build then that very thing that was unique has now become a useless skill in trying to have a combo Plasma Cannon Plasma rain build. With my Dex at 121: 33-40 +9 +1 a merc with tech at 84: 28-34 +1 +6 got 45 critical damage without rage with max Bunker Buster, they were never weak, all of you just duped the staff in giving that class a new skill.

Since Plasma Rain improves with Dex now where it starts and how it scales needs to be adjusted because it takes more Dex to get the same power as before and now the Multi skills are unequal and unbalanced.

If they left plasma rain like this
Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after)
but with DEX
To have the same power this is how much Dex I need compare to tech Dex 151: 39-47 Tech 135: 39-47
Compared to multi-shot
Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage per 4 Dexterity)


< Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 4/14/2012 14:10:54 >
Epic  Post #: 3
4/14/2012 13:39:12   
Ranloth
Banned


 Reserved for my suggestion post, as always. :P

Bots:
They, are quite strong at the moment. Assault Bot and Heart Borg in particular. As we know, Yeti's special is only useable once per battle. Would changing these 2 bots to once per battle help in the end? In those really long fights, both bots can be used at least twice which gives advantage; even too big if non-Varium.. Giving it only once per battle would make the choices perhaps more wiser as you could not use it again. Perhaps slight change could be good as well. 80% is quite a lot, whether it's Assault or Heart Bot. Scaling by Focus is much better - surely you don't like seeing Str-abuse with Azrael Bot whilst having Focus 1 or 2 and taking away 80% of your buff + have really high damage, no? Focus 1 - 15%, Focus 2 - 30%, Focus 3 - 40%, Focus 4 - 50%, Focus 5 - 60%.
It's much better that way as currently buffers and nerfers serve no purpose as you're most likely to have them debuffed thus wasting a turn and Energy which is important for some classes. And it actually makes Bots balanced, as they aren't supposed to give you so much power without any effort put into it (stats).

Blocking:
Currently formula is "Block Chance Adjustment = (Defender's Dexterity - Attacker's Dexterity) / 2". We have 10% fixed to add for adjusted blocking chance and it cannot fall below 4% (overall blocking). Going by 3 examples here: 80 Dex build vs 50 Dex & 110 Dex build vs 50 Dex & 100 Dex build vs. 20 Dex (smoked, about -30 Dex) (both Tanks against normal'er build (Str/Support/etc)). First gives 25% chance to block, second gives 40% chance and last one is 50% chance to block. That is for Defender, now attacker on given examples has: 4% chance, 4% chance and again 4% chance. Isn't that quite unfair? Luck plays a role there that our unlucky person will block a lot but it isn't really fair how low it is even if luck didn't play a role in it.
I've thought of different suggestion on changing the fixed and minimum blocking rate which favours training Dex but not to the point where it's abused because it carries a penality - the higher difference, the higher penality will be. I allowed myself to use Excel here and posting a picture of few different scenarios with differences and last one being either abuse or using Reflex Boost of BH's/BM's skill tree at high Lvl + high Support: http://i43.tinypic.com/2h35reo.png
Yes I've made Dex decay as the difference is bigger to lower the defensive capabilities of it + make it less abusable for different skills or builds that do take advantage of having certain stats at (very) high level.
Now onto explaining it:
  • Fixed blocking rate is DEX/10. It's used to add onto total blocking AND is used as minimum. So rate isn't fixed like it is now but allows you to get better blocking (even when your Dex is a lot lower than enemy's, you get higher chance at least and it's fair) and slightly compensates for the decaying at bigger differences (you can see penality (penality = DEX*whatever the difference is on the table there*) getting almost to 1/2 of DEX so makes sense).
  • Blocking is simply DEX/2 (after accounting penality).
  • Total blocking is a bit different - you take a total and take it away from your enemy's (so 1st scenario is 51.17647% - 30%) and it gives the final value in "total blocking rate"). As you can see, as DEX gets closer to your enemy's, player with 100 DEX has even lower block rate as the enemy is catching up with the player (DEX wise) which clearly makes sense. Seeing as player with lower DEX has lower blocking, in effect it should go below 0% chance (cannot block), I've made fixed blocking in place depending on DEX now - not luck.
    On 100 vs 90 scenario, you can see how both players are close and it's only 1% apart. Simply but, 100 has 91% chance to hit while 90 has 90% chance to hit.

    Mercenaries:
    After Mercs have lost Blood Shield and HA change, they got +6 Def and Res as their only mean of defence. They have no other way to boost their defence in any way due to Adrenaline taking place of BS. I suggest Hybrid Armor to be put back to its old state - +12 Def or Res. It's crucial as they cannot defend effectively against neither of them with current HA whilst old one might prove it better, especially that BS is gone. If class mainly focuses on Physical attacks, current HA has no use due to +6 going to Resistance and you could have much better use of +12 Def instead and if, let's say TMs, focus on Energy attacks mainly then taking a turn to put HA to +12 Res is good compensation as stat buffer - Energy Shield - is stronger but costs EP and fades, but as HA is passive then its lower Res compensates for being passive.
    It'd be much better that way as TLMs have Mineral Armor - +12 Defence - and Blood Shield on Tier 2! They get access to Resistance immediately if they want to get to Tier 3 skills other than FC, whilst Mercs had no other choice but go all the way down to Tier 4. So TLMs have +12 Def and BS at their disposal without much effort and Mercs get split HA for +6 Def and Res & no other defensive skill?

    I'd say Adrenaline needs looking at as well. It's quite useless in 1v1 and the Balance Team has said that if it doesn't do well, you will buff it. Perhaps making Adrenaline reduce enemy's rage by whatever it is at your level? So at Lvl 10, it gives you Rage 20% faster and you could make your enemy get it 20% slower too. In 2v2, it could be tougher but you could just split the effect of reducing between the two so 10% less each, unless there are 2 Mercs so they'd stack to maximum of 20% each on the enemy.

    Next up is Atom Smasher. At Lvl 1, it's already deadly due to improvement with Str (higher damage = higher EP drain) so I'd suggest making it based on weapon's damage only and ignoring defences but 80%, nothing else. Keeping %s the same but take away stat damage, so if weapon does 34 damage, enemy has 25-30 Def/Res, and Atom drains 60% then 17 Energy. Currently with decent Str build + Lvl 1 Atom Smasher, it can drain a lot of EP. Yes it can be blocked but drain is variable at different ranges and can prove to be better than EMP.

    Lastly I'd like to suggest a re-arranged Merc skill tree found here: http://i45.tinypic.com/zairp.png
    With this skill tree, you can get to skills you want much easier. Of course, SS needs Berzerker and Bunker before you can get it but you can do Bunker + SS build with high Energy. Atom is now easier to get and so is Adrenaline; not literally easier but it gives you better choice to create other builds instead of old skill tree. I've also taken FC + Multi idea from TLMs as it seems quite good. But main point is - you can make builds quite easier now as you aren't restricted by having useless skills you won't use. SS build need Bunker and Zerker as I said but you don't have to use them, although Bunker can be used as life-saving skill if you even have it at Lvl 1 with Tech build for SS.
    There's simply much bettter synergy between the skills and allows you to get better builds without wasting points elsewhere.

    Tactical Mercenaries:
    Passive Armors - only classes who should have them is Mercs and TLMs; they are unique for them only

    TLMs were OP'ed for long time, got their nerf and they are balanced so far but are you sure? It has passive Armor and Energy regen which is fine, but passive Armor seems to kinda make it still a bit strong with their skill tree. One suggestion for them is taking out Mineral Armor competely and replacing with current Hybrid Armor of Mercs. Why should TLMs get brand new Armor while Mercs have old one? All evolved classes have first tier of skills the same (but CH with EMP, not my point) and making it +6 Def and Res would be perfect for TLMs and would balance them out even further. Although it's just a suggestion, it could be good but it's all in the air unless we know how strong FC will be in terms of being useful and if Technican can be back.
    You will say it's a nerf. No! FC is useless right? It will be revamped once they get to Merc class and also work on Intimidate which is a buff to BMs as well which they need a bit. Once FC is fixed, TLMs will be even further balanced. Also this will tie in with my Bot suggestion as if you get FC debuffed at current state of bots, it's pure useless just like most of buffers.
    Although BloodShield could go, Technican can be put back because it was making Smoke too strong and provided too good synergy with some skills. Now there's no Smoke so it makes sense to put it back + SS build would have a bit better chance as you could boost it a little and defend well.
    Liking it so far?

    Next up is Atom Smasher. At Lvl 1, it's already deadly due to improvement with Str (higher damage = higher EP drain) so I'd suggest making it based on weapon's damage only and ignoring defences but 80%, nothing else. Keeping %s the same but take away stat damage, so if weapon does 34 damage, enemy has 25-30 Def/Res, and Atom drains 60% then 17 Energy. Currently with decent Str build + Lvl 1 Atom Smasher, it can drain a lot of EP. Yes it can be blocked but drain is variable at different ranges and can prove to be better than EMP.

    Bounty Hunters:
    SA has always been a luck-based skill but may not have provided enough benefits for its cost - requirements but also placement of the skill. To slightly buff it up, note that BHs could use small buff, I suggest adding +1% Connect per 2 Levels. Remember that Connect only applies on Strike so skills like CheapShot would not be affected as it's a skill, but SC of CH's would be affected by it - it's a skill but costs no Energy but can give it back + has no other boosts so this SA change would also benefit CHs if they were to get their old skill-tree back as well as provide them with small boost. Lastly BHs due to limited Energy, will rely on their weapons more rather than skills due to no Reroute so chance to Connect on Strike would benefit them especially with BL/SC which is key skill of their skill-tree.
    I want to keep SA still a luck-based skill so this is quite a good way to slightly buff the skill up and also the class a bit! :D

    EMP with high Tech and even low Level can be quite deadly, or even an overkill, for any build - with Reroute or not & high EP or not. I suggest taking the Tech-improvement away and make it scaled by level + have fixed ranges. So you have to train it to drain more EP instead of now. Numbers would be lowered down as well to match those of Atom Smasher or a bit lower as it's unblockable unlike Atom.

    Cyber Hunters:
    Now CHs! Firstly I'll suggest new skill tree, not much different and people will like it: 

    Heal  - Cheap  - Matrix
Tech  - Static - EMP
Multi - Condu  - Stun
Venom - Mass   - SA


    Static Charge returned to former glory, before all the nerfs to it but ignoring defences just like it should.
    Stun Grenade is same as they have now, not BH's version.

    Although if Plasma Armor is going to stay, I have slightly different approach instead: 

    Heal   - Cheap  - Matrix
Plasma - Condu  - PCannon
Multi  - Static - Stun
Venom  - Mass   - SA


    Static Charge slightly improved (max. 35%) due to EMP being gone and being Tier 3 skill instead.
    Conduction using Tier 2 version which is weaker for obvious reasons and they already have Plasma Armor so it's good enough. Also weaker Conduction is to replace Malf which with Plasma Armor, gives you deadly Res and 25% deflection rate unless you have Assault Bot which isn't really fair to have it both. This applies to Tier 2 AND Tier 3 version.
    Plasma Cannon replaces EMP so prevent looping but also give them an unblockable attack apart from Multi and Mass which is an Ultimate. It fits the theme and gives them more variety if used properly.

    Conduction is new skill replacing Malf. Malf and Multi provide great synergy with their Skill Tree already which is why I decided to change it slightly, original idea was mine but Void gladly helped me to improve it which is great! :D
    Conduction affects only Resistance alone, not Tech which affects deflection rate and skills, which give CHs a great advantage in fight. Also why can't CH be unique and have new skill as well? Here's how it works:

    Tier 2 version

    Energy Required: 10 + 2 per every Level after

    Level 1: Reduce Target's Resistance by 1 Point
    Level 2: Reduce Target's Resistance by 2 Points
    Level 3: Reduce Target's Resistance by 3 Points
    Level 4: Reduce Target's Resistance by 4 Points
    Level 5: Reduce Target's Resistance by 5 Points
    Level 6: Reduce Target's Resistance by 6 Points
    Level 7: Reduce Target's Resistance by 7 Points
    Level 8: Reduce Target's Resistance by 8 Points
    Level 9: Reduce Target's Resistance by 9 Points
    Level 10: Reduce Target's Resistance by 10 Points


    Tier 3 version

    Energy Required: 14 + 2 per every Level after

    Level 1: Reduce Target's Resistance by 1 / 2 / 3 Points
    Level 2: Reduce Target's Resistance by 3 / 4 / 5 Points
    Level 3: Reduce Target's Resistance by 5 / 6 / 7 Points
    Level 4: Reduce Target's Resistance by 7 / 8 / 9 Points
    Level 5: Reduce Target's Resistance by 9 / 10 / 11 Points
    Level 6: Reduce Target's Resistance by 10 / 11 / 12 Points
    Level 7: Reduce Target's Resistance by 11 / 12 / 13 Points
    Level 8: Reduce Target's Resistance by 12 / 13 / 14 Points
    Level 9: Reduce Target's Resistance by 13 / 14 / 15 Points
    Level 10: Reduce Target's Resistance by 14 / 15 / 16 Points


    It does NOT improve with any skill, these are fixed numbers. And it does NOT stack with Malf at all.
    You will argue it's weaker than Malf as it doesn't affect stats but -16 Res is equivalent to about -60 Tech on Malf which requires very high (abusive) Support build and also maxed to even get there. That's with neglecting all other stats for Malf to be as high which affects your deflection rate (higher) and enemy's falling down as well as debuffing some of their skills. Since abusive Malf is harder to get and affects all the stats, these numbers for Conduction are a bit better than Malf with the same Energy cost but don't affect any other stat but Resistance which is good enough. These numbers should be equal to the same Level of Malf with moderate Support at lower range (depends on your Level and skill's) and gets better than Malf (Res-wise) when it hits just Lvl 4 and starts to dominate over it.
    The requirement would also be Technology which is most suitable stat for 2 reasons - it enhances Stun Grenade and Energy Shield which aren't pure offensive skills and cannot give you damage advantage in fight. If we go by PA suggestion, it gives them better damage for their Cannon so it goes together quite well.
    You know people why CH were underpowered before? Because TLM was too strong and every class felt that way, now see what happened because of it? If TLM is balanced, surely old CH can do as good now?

    Next we have EMP; with high Tech and even low Level can be quite deadly, or even an overkill, for any build - with Reroute or not & high EP or not. I suggest taking the Tech-improvement away and make it scaled by level + have fixed ranges. So you have to train it to drain more EP instead of now. Numbers would be lowered down as well to match those of Atom Smasher or a bit lower as it's unblockable unlike Atom.

    Tech Mages:
    Due to the OP Caster builds that are dominating Delta V as well, I thought of requirements for skills that will bring their power down, or to be more specific - ability to abuse one stat and not get penalized for it.

    Support - Reroute; currently it's Tech which is main stat of most of the TMs so there's no point having it there, and TLMs usually will have higher Tech as well to go with Mineral Armor. Support benefits TMs by Matrix and Malf while for TLMs it's just Multi but having 42 Support requirement at Lvl 10 is not too much as many players go for Lvl 7 which is just 36 Support. Chances are, your equipment will have similar requirement anyway but yet, it brings abuse down.

    Strength - Super Charge; currently it's Dex. Seeing as TMs have no passive Armor, it's obvious they will invest in Dex a bit so it won't kill them to invest 42 Str at most at Lvl 10 SC. Seeing as just Malf has Strength requirement, which is already low - being max of 38 Str whilst many TMs and CHs go for Lvl 5-7 then it's 28-32 Strength which is very small amount. CHs would not mind that requirement as their SC depends on damage and they are likely to invest more in Strength while TMs that use Caster builds (Plasma and SC) don't need Strength. If a player decides for Malf + SC combo then he needs to train Str a bit, so that won't kill them either!

    Blood Mages:
    I thought of it while thinking on how to make BMs not just Str-oriented which restricts your build a lot so this was quite a good way to make it work. *you can find it in Void's post as well on 1st page*

    Blood Shield: Sacrifice your health to activate an energy shield for you or an ally.

    Energy Required: 0 (No Cost)
    Conversion ( Progression depends on character level ):

    Level 1: 4 / 5 / 6 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 2: 5 / 6 / 7 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 3: 6 / 7 / 8 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 4: 7 / 8 / 9 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 5: 8 / 9 / 10 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 6: 9 / 10 / 11 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 7: 10 / 11 / 12 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 8: 11 / 12 / 13 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 9: 12 / 13 / 14 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
    Level 10: 13 / 14 / 15 Health transfered to x2 Resistance

    Warm Up: 0
    Cool Down: 2

    So going by that, 1 HP = 2 Res simply. We want to keep same HP cost as it is because BMs can get HP back via BloodLust which provides great synergy. Seeing as Energy Shield costs Energy, it's hard for BMs to play defensively with limited Energy, and also Reflex costs Energy too which makes it even harder in some situations.
    At Lvl 10, you could get up to 30 Resistance (depends on your Lvl) by spending 15 HP for 3 turns only. If you look at EShield/DMatrix, they can do that as well at high Lvl or with high Support but you have to pay Energy instead which is not possible to regenerate for BMs. Cooldown is also lowered to 2 turns because it lasts just 3 turns - before it lasted 5 turns and cooldown was 4.
    Main reason this is stronger is lower duration of the Shield, therefore we could increase power significantly and it could work for BMs quite well. This could perhaps open possibility for other builds than just Str because BL works with every weapon, not just Primary so you could go for a Tank and use Tech for Plasma, or SC build with BL and BS. Dex improves SC so your weakness would be whichever was lower and you could fix it by using BS.
    Void's say on the skill: Blood Shield is optimized for Blood Mages because of the lack of energy, and the mutuality between it and the skill already owned... Bloodlust. Energy Shield is powerful in itself, however Blood Shield is not phased by EMP, allowing more proficient use of other assorted skills that use energy, such as an attack skill like Fireball. This skill does not make the Blood Mages overpowered as it costs both health and a whole turn to use, while not inflicting damage. To make up for this, Trans decided that the added Resistance be a higher value, twice the amount in Resistance in ratio to health.

    (ND Mallet's suggestion)
    To reduce amount of Str-abuse, aka, Fireball+Gun+Zerker combo, he suggests removing Berzerker for Bludgeon from TM's skill tree. This will reduce power of Str builds without making them UPed, still give them strong attack to use but with less power, lower EP cost and unfortunatelly locked to Physical which shouldn't be that much of a problem. If it misses, then the EP cost ain't as heavy as Zerker so you can think of alternative strategy in case it misses or try to use Bludgeon in a different way - not train it to max but perhaps Str+Tank combo so you can have good attack as well as defences. It may tie in well with my BS suggestion which doesn't cost EP to use thus giving more option to BMs.
    Will be implemented.

    Buffers and nerfers:
    Currently buffers take a turn and do nothing while nerfers debuff you + attack at same time. Would perhaps striking with buffers OR smoke to be applied only so no strike, be better?
    As currently it's a wasted turn while nerfers get an advantage, on top of it if you debuff a nerfer then that's another turn wasted and even more damage taken. I'd go for nerfers being applied without a Strike and keep buffers how they are. If one attacks while other has to wait then the attack one is not fair as it gives same thing but nerf + damages you.
    And also, if Bot's debuff were to be reduced to about 60%, nerfers did not attack just like buffers but apply the effect, this could make some buffers a lot more useful. But also if you attack someone with buffer on (Dex/Tech buffer) and use Smoke, you technically debuff them and get even higher increase in Rage which is quite the advantage as you still striked which dealt damage.

    Heal:
    Support has been severly weakened after deflection was taken away along with Heal improving by Support and now, it's one of the worst stats around when compared to others. My point is that small buff to Support would be making Heal improve by Support again! Not fully by Support, keep it how it is and improves by let's say 1HP/7-8 Support, and that's a buff for all Support builds as well as stat itself which needs a buff - I hope Team also remembers that they made a promise to buff it up after deflection was taken away?

    < Message edited by Trans -- 4/29/2012 9:31:25 >
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 4
    4/14/2012 13:59:01   
    khalidon5000
    Member

    		Blood Mages aren't very versatile so Trans suggested I suggest this for Blood Mages.
    If you know about
    Well, I present to you the auxiliary equivalent...

    Deadly Shock! (Name can be adjusted I don't mind)

    Auxiliary damage increase:

    Level 1: 10%
    Level 2: 13%
    Level 3: 16%
    Level 4: 19%
    Level 5: 21%
    Level 6: 23%
    Level 7: 25%
    Level 8: 26%
    Level 9: 27%
    Level 10: 28%
    Weapon Required: Auxiliary
    Stat Required: 24 Support +2 to requirement per skill point
    Improves with: None

    This skill is really promising and it can replace deadly aim.
    It would help make BMs more versatile.


    < Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 4/29/2012 6:29:39 >
    Epic  Post #: 5
    4/14/2012 14:13:26   
    Mr. Black OP
    Member

    		@Depressed Void
    quote:

    ►Massacre becomes Physical for Cyber Hunters... (or insert a new Physical Ultimate skill for Cyber Hunters. Malfunction and Conduction both synergize with Energy attacks, Massacre can be selective to be either Energy or Physical, since ultimate skills hit above 20 points of damage, they should not be able to be exploited by other offensive skills that permit instant death)

    BH can smoke then massacre so its only fair that CH should be able to do the same thing.

    Percents of damage for blue ruin?

    Make cyber arts able to below the minimum block chance like SA is able to go above the maximum block chance.

    I would raise Plasma Auras percent because if they do 20 Damage at max Plasma Aura won't even be enough to stop a lv 2 BL. But make it so it won't stack with the biobot's special.

    For encumbrance:
    If a weapon is +4 every stat and you are 3 below the level it becomes +1 every stat. If it is +4 on 3 stats and you are 3 below the level then it is +1 on those 3. If it is +8 on 2 stats and you are 3 below the level then it is +2 on 2 stats. If it is +13 on one stat and you are 3 below make it +1 on that 1 stat.

    For static charge, do you mean damage dealt? Or the way we have it now?

    For enhancements, what about making them free? Now everyone will have them.


    For TM: Strength requirement for plasma bolt, support requirement for reroute, dexterity requirements for supercharge.

    For BM: Technology requirement for fire ball, dexterity requirement for bezerker.


    < Message edited by zman 2 -- 4/14/2012 14:20:13 >
    Epic  Post #: 6
    4/14/2012 14:31:53   
    Stabilis
    Member

    quote:

    ^

    I just edited my ENTIRE post :P.



    quote:

    BH can smoke then massacre so its only fair that CH should be able to do the same thing.


    Well, I do not even think BH should have Smokescreen really. Why? Limited energy. BH could use Smokescreen maybe once or twice, but for the remainder of the battle they would most likely not have it available. BH, M, and BM should be accessible to a form of restoring energy, even if it means granting them Reroute or Assimilation because new skills take up a lot of time. The skill trees of these 3 classes are not optimized for enduring battles, leaving their only skills to be above average in power, designed to kill players within their energy limits. Because Malfunction and Smokescreen synergize with attack skills and Bloodlust, the power of the 3 classes' attack skills could be reduced if energy restoration were more available. For Mercenaries the energy renewing skill would be the greatest due to their passives only manifesting in reducing damage input and increasing damage output. I would have given Bloodlust classes a skill that reduces enemy Strength or Support instead. Classes that have passives or Static Charge that restore energy would receive Smokescreen or Malfunction because their is no Bloodlust to synergize damage dealt into health. The the result of classes without Bloodlust or damage-applied passives not having any benefits from outputting damage, skills that drop the enemy's Dexterity or Technology would be more acceptable.

    quote:

    Percents of damage for blue ruin?


    (Base Strength damage + Primary damage) * Blue Ruin %

    Just like Bludgeon or Double Strike.

    quote:

    Make cyber arts able to below the minimum block chance like SA is able to go above the maximum block chance.


    Good point, I should add that if it is not already implied. Though would this be in more simple calculations considered 0%?

    quote:

    I would raise Plasma Auras percent because if they do 20 Damage at max Plasma Aura won't even be enough to stop a lv 2 BL. But make it so it won't stack with the biobot's special.


    Good point it should not stack with Bio Borg's Thorns. About the Plasma Aura and Bloodlust conflict, we have to consider that Bloodlust is a % of damage dealt, and Plasma Aura is a % of total health, 2 very different things.

    Example:

    Player A @ 120 Health and has Max Bloodlust
    Player B @ 80 Health and has Max Plasma Aura

    Player A attacks Player B for 20 damage.

    Bloodlust health = 5
    Plasma Aura damage = 12

    Result: Player A lost 7 health.

    quote:


    For encumbrance:
    If a weapon is +4 every stat and you are 3 below the level it becomes +1 every stat. If it is +4 on 3 stats and you are 3 below the level then it is +1 on those 3. If it is +8 on 2 stats and you are 3 below the level then it is +2 on 2 stats. If it is +13 on one stat and you are 3 below make it +1 on that 1 stat.


    That is a great suggestion, something I was thinking, I will add your suggestion and credit it to you.

    quote:

    For static charge, do you mean damage dealt? Or the way we have it now?


    What I suggested: only the damage of your Primary weapon, we take out improving by Strength.

    quote:

    For enhancements, what about making them free? Now everyone will have them.


    That works, its just that we would have to reimburse all of the varium spent on enhancements. It could be against the refund policy or be difficult to track though.

    < Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/14/2012 15:05:26 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 7
    4/14/2012 14:40:00   
    Dreiko Shadrack
    Member

    		I am liking that blood shield suggestion for blood mages (specifically). :D
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
    4/14/2012 14:41:18   
    Hun Kingq
    Member

    		zman 2, You know fire ball and Berzerker both have Dex Requirements
    Max fire ball requires 33 DEX

    Max Berzerker requires 37 DEX
    Level 9 35 Dex
    Level 8 33 Dex
    Level 7 31 Dex
    Level 6 29 Dex
    Level 5 27 Dex
    Level 4 25
    Level 3 23
    Level 2 21
    Level 1 19

    Blood Lust has a tech requirement
    Level 1 16 tech
    2 18 tech
    3 20 tech
    4 22 tech
    5 24 tech
    6 26 tech
    7 28 tech
    8 30 tech
    9 32 tech
    10 34 tech

    Then there is tech and Dex requirements on non Alpha and Beta Weapons.

    If blood shield improves tech that would be fine because now the the blood mage has only one skill that improves with technology and 3 skills to improve with Dex and no matter which one you choose you have to have extremely high stats to see beneficial damage.

    < Message edited by Hun Kingq -- 4/14/2012 14:48:33 >
    Epic  Post #: 9
    4/14/2012 14:43:49   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Ehehe, thankyou. :3 It would be almost on par with other skills and doesn't improve by anything which Void seems to have liking to! xD No Energy cost makes it 'BM friendly' and allows you to focus on others skills more - EP wise that is whilst providing you with decent defence which can be made out through damage; DA also goes with it (damage = HP) so this allows bigger variety of builds to be made, other than Str-only that is. :)

    I could say few of my suggestions might be a bit off as few things have changed since then but I posted it anyway. xD
    AQ Epic  Post #: 10
    4/14/2012 14:48:10   
    Dreiko Shadrack
    Member

    		the new bloodshield would also play well with conduction...as in if you got it off at the right time you could really shaft those CH. XD
    (strategically used naturally).
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
    4/14/2012 14:52:33   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Good point about both actually is no improvement by stats. I just remembered it doesn't improve so Void do has a point with non-stat improving skills. It can be done but not to all skills, but it does work fine. xD

    And both don't affect stats so you're looking at no possibility to abuse stats by stat buffers, therefore you aren't giving advantage to neither of the classes whilst keeping them at similar power level. And it'd solve problem of let's say, Lvl 5 Malf being stronger than Lvl 7 Technican which makes no sense but goes by stat abuse to out-do the other one and buffers (defensive) should be made stronger but to an extent whilst nerfers are offensive skills so they should be a bit weaker to not but other skills at a disadvantage. :D
    AQ Epic  Post #: 12
    4/14/2012 14:58:53   
    Dreiko Shadrack
    Member

    		I agree that skill stat improvements should the minimized in their quantity but I also don't think that they should be removed from all skills entirely (in relation to void's stance on the subject).
    Stat abuse, I fear, will always be present we should just make it a less viable option of build as opposed to trying to get rid of it altogether.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
    4/14/2012 15:04:15   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Well but if you want to defend, it doesn't make sense if Technican and Malf give same numbers (just opposite) whilst Lvl 3 Malf outdoes Lvl 6 Technican. This should be minimized especially with Deflection change which is deadly with CHs, so Conduction would work best. Even with old skill tree, Conduction is more viable choice than Malf.
    Also it makes CHs unique, skill that is rather than a copy. xP

    @below
    Yeah I know, I was trying to make my point again as of why Conduction would be better. :P

    < Message edited by Trans -- 4/14/2012 17:05:21 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 14
    4/14/2012 15:05:28   
    Dreiko Shadrack
    Member

    		Oh, I wasn't arguing against your suggestions specifically, just overall.
    The subject of which in particular should or should not improve with stats isn't as straightforward as one might think it.

    < Message edited by Dreiko Shadrack -- 4/14/2012 15:07:19 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 15
    4/14/2012 15:06:33   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		Lightbulb!

    Bloodlust classes:

    What if more of their skills costed health instead of energy???




    EDIT:

    @Zman,

    I answered your questions in my above post.

    < Message edited by Depressed Void -- 4/14/2012 15:07:27 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 16
    4/14/2012 15:09:46   
    Dreiko Shadrack
    Member

    		Whilst interesting, I'm not certain how I feel about a class tree having more than one skill which involved "bloodletting".
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 17
    4/14/2012 20:51:09   
    JohnMenzies
    Member

    		What about making Bunker Buster improve with support?

    _____________________________

    - John
    Epic  Post #: 18
    4/14/2012 22:20:26   
    Zeoth
    Member

    		THAT would be a NIGHTMARE. Mercs already have a multi that improves with support, make bunker improve with would give Mercs a nightmare one-two punch. Besides what we aren't looking at I'd what they will do with intimidate. Maybe after the buff and move adrenaline up in the skill tree.

    Edit: I just noticed most of the classes have their passive in the 1st tier 4th tier format. Why does TLM get it in the format of 1st and 3rd tier?

    < Message edited by Zeoth -- 4/14/2012 22:22:38 >
    Post #: 19
    4/14/2012 22:21:58   
    drinde
    Member

    		Aye.

    I believe I suggested before that Intimidate reduces the % of damage inflicted, how is that?
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 20
    4/14/2012 22:24:29   
    Zeoth
    Member

    		That would definitely work, it would help with strength abusers. Lower their damage effective. The current one is ineffective because it debuffs on strict values. Percentages would work much better.
    Post #: 21
    4/14/2012 22:29:47   
    drinde
    Member

    		By the way, the new weapon rehaul has wrecked havoc on the lower range. On my alt, I can see almost 80% STR, thanks to the hefty weapon DMG. I used to think power builds didn't do THIS much DMG...

    _____________________________
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 22
    4/14/2012 22:30:29   
    Mr. Black OP
    Member

    		Maybe giving the merc's artillery their 10% back? TLM no longer have smoke. So why not?
    Epic  Post #: 23
    4/14/2012 22:31:35   
    drinde
    Member

    		But it isn't if TtMs are weak. They are still one of the most powerful classes, just behind CH.
    DF MQ Epic  Post #: 24
    4/14/2012 22:32:31   
    Zeoth
    Member

    		^
    Zman the balance team means to have all the multis on par with each other, while 10% isn't much it can mean the difference in a battle


    Edit: Tbh TLMs weren't OP with smoke. It's just the fact they have two MAIN passives in their skill tree

    < Message edited by Zeoth -- 4/14/2012 22:35:04 >
    Post #: 25
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