Balance Tracker (Full Version)

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PivotalDisorder -> Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 7:30:27)

@ED Staff: any chance we can see how the balance tracker works?

I question the validity of many of the statements the staff make involving the balance tracker. I believe it possible that they are
not fully understanding the information presented to them and are making statements that have not been fully thought out. Now if
that is not the case and I am just bias, what would be the harm in letting us see how they came to the conclusions that they do.

The forum community [and gaming community] has some incredibly smart players, I would love to see their ideas and opinions
based around the information the balance tracker presents. I bet they would come up with stuff the staff might never even consider.

Their are so many factors involved in each classes win ratios that I think a simple win % doesn't even remotely do it justice.

Cyber Hunters are performing at a similar rate to TLM, TM and BH. BM are over-performing and Merc are under-performing.
1: Really wanna see which classes CH is losing to, and which it consistently beats. I'd say CH is easily the no1 class, if a bit slow.
2: Is this for 1v1, 2v2 or both? I cannot imagine BH performing as well in 2v2 as the other classes, you hardly ever see any either.


FINAL NOTE
I am not saying I am smarter than the staff and I am not flaming them. just curious about the balance tracker :)




gangster a -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 7:39:25)

^ i agree i mean all these nerfs and buffs how do you know that actually fixes it? not flamming just wondering.



Stabilis -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 7:50:34)

I doubt that random chance helps in the recording, my suggestion is that chance events would not count towards the total of BT's wins/losses.



midnight santa -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:28:45)

balance tracker is no use. Players is jus class change to CH, BH and BM.
Only nonvariums use Merc and TM dat why it is low % LOL.
So my recomendation for titan is delete balance tracker and actualy play dis game
so u know wat is balance (ex. TM Merc and Tacmerc) and not balance (strenth BM BH CH).
In short, lisen to pro players (ex. me) and make fast balance change, not "after 1 year" balance change...



Ranloth -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:32:52)

Titan isn't Balance Team member but m'kay. He's a coder along with Rabble.



midnight santa -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:36:35)

dis is game of titan rite? he shud know dis game rite?
he shud make it balance rite?
Please use ur brains...



Promaster -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:40:13)

^
No, this is a game belonging to AE Entertainment.



ND Mallet -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:43:29)

What I know of the balance tracker is that it looks at every 1vs1 battle from every single level and compiles the data from each battle to give an average win ratio for the entire class per level. The numbers are harder to skew because it has so many samples taken(can you say several thousand in one day?) but it can be skewed in the short run(massive luck failures for several players). That doesn't mean it isn't accurate because of luck since over several thousand battles luck evens out.



midnight santa -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:44:02)

^Ok, i am beta so i wil giv u history leson ok.
Titan create dis game and NW help him.
Dont be offtopic. dis is about "balance tracker"



Fay Beeee -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:47:06)

Interesting topic guys. One thing. If you think you are going to get mis-understood here. Try and post NOT in text language, as not all will understand. :)

No offence meant.

Have fun.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:50:21)

@The ND Mallet Guy: lets say 95% of the player base are Blood Mage, and Tactical Mercs generally perform much better against them than
Tech Mages, now the tracker presumably would show that TLM has a higher win rate than Tech Mages overall even though Tech Mage could
of been the most balanced class, and performed well against every other class but BM. then they would buff TM or nerf TLM instead of seeing
that the core problem was the number of BMs. it's situations like these that I am worried about.

until we know how the balance tracker works, I will just presume that the balance tracker can be very misleading.



Ranloth -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:52:22)

No one is off topic here so don't act like ND may be. This thread has.potential to get accurate feedback from Devs if trolls won't ruin it and many people want to see how it works so let's keep to the topic guys.



ND Mallet -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 8:54:24)

@pivotal
1. Varium users<non varium users in term of numbers.
2. Hardly ever does a class rise up above 50% in terms of ED population, even per level.
3. The team decides themselves what ratio is deemed fair. From your situation it would clearly show BMs are kicking the snot out of TMs and TLMs, while TMs aren't as bad off against TLMs. They look at every ratio for all the classes and against all classes(I think I left that part out in my post). The numbers would easily show TM is fine and BM is OPd.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 9:19:36)

@Mallet: the 95% was just an extreme example. for Point 3, I think you misread my example. but I will go check [checked, yeah you misread it, or miscommented]

also are you sure they compare rates for each class against all other classes?
and does it account for varium and non varium players?

i.e if you face 100 BMs, 99 are varium and 1 is non var. Wouldn't that also skew figures for some of the classes?



Cinderella -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 10:00:56)

The reason for having a balance tracker is to have a large amount of data compiled, consolidated, and presented in a form that makes sense. This is also to account for observer bias (ie the propensity to skew results due to the observer's cognitive bias). The suggestion for "delete balance tracker and have titan play dis game" puts us at risk of making a staff member's "preferred" class overpowered in the long run.



MirageD -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 10:30:56)

does the balance tracker track the 2v2 and jug experiences?



zion -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 10:31:21)

@Cinderella:
I think what is bothering a lot of players is what seems to be a glaring weakness in the balance tracker. Due to the nature of the game, there are some builds that start to work better than others and can be exploited with full Varium and copy-cat builds. The fact that the top 1% (in terms of raw statistical power) gravitates over to a specific build/class and "beat the snot out of everyone" doesn't mean the class as a whole is overpowered. It just doesn't make sense that BM - with no real energy regain or drain and with no passive armor and with a debuff usually fit only for npc - can be overpowered. It just seems like if you can put +60 enhancements into strength then the combo of Bloodlust and a few offensive moves can mean quick victories (and defeats). Since BH has smoke and a strength-based finishing move to go along with Bloodlust, its hard to imagine that is a weaker combination than what a BM can do...(not to mention the best energy drain and a passive blocker)
Summary: Does the balance tracker take into account the phenomenon (that has been going on at least since the beginning of beta - i.e. TM heal loop) of the uber-elite jumping on some easy-to-dominate-with build that can make a class seem more OP than it really is?
--Noiz



RabbleFroth -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 11:23:36)

I can talk a little bit about this. I do want to start though by saying the Balance Tracker system is not the only thing we use to determine what needs to be balanced or how to balance. We use a mixture of the tracker, personal experience from playing, feedback from players, and more to determine if we think changes need to be made.

So first off, what exactly does it do? It tracks the overall win percentages of each class in 1v1 matches at 5 level intervals. It throws out same class matches (Blood Mage vs Blood Mage) because obviously that will always result in a 50% win rate and skews the data. This gives us a clear look at the overall status of each class. It makes it very very clear if a single class is doing much better or worse than they should be in each level range.

Obviously, there are flaws with this system, and is the reason it cannot be the only method we use to determine how to balance. So what are the issues?
* First off, it cannot differentiate between builds. If Mercenaries are doing terribly overall, but a single build is able to get 90% wins and only a handful of people are using it, the tracker will not show this. Once it catches on and becomes popular though, we'll see a spike in Mercenary wins and be able to fix it. This is why player feedback and personal play is important, so we can notice these trends early.
* Secondly, it only works for 1v1. I'd like to implement a similar system for 2v2, but it's a little more complicated and I haven't been able to dedicate the time to do so. Luckily, proper balance in 1v1 helps with balance in 2v2. They're not equal of course, but related.
* Finally, they're just numbers. At the end of the day, the goal is to make fights that are fair and enjoyable. Close balance helps with this, absolutely, but is not the only part of the equation. Skills have to feel good, different play styles should be available for different classes, etc. These are things an objective Balance Tracker cannot describe with a chart.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 11:42:17)

@Cinderella: do not worry about that one guy raging and saying scrap balance tracker, most long term players know the tracker is a big improvement on no tracker at all.

@Rabblefroth: thankyou for the big answer :) I wish I had presented my questions in a less inflammatory way much earlier than I did. ED does make me mad at times.

quote:

This is also to account for observer bias

any chance of some recent win% figures for level capped players only, class vs class? [probably time consuming, would settle for Cyber Hunters if beggars can be choosers]
just what their win rate is vs each class. nothing too fancy :)



Basicball -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 12:47:34)

@Rabble: you might want to look into jugg balancing some more. it's rare to see level cap people with over 75% these day. and 95+% of these playes are full varium.
adjusting the level range would be a fast, easy and good way to do it i think.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 12:54:35)

@Basicball: 70% is about the best I can do in 2v2 as well and apparently that is actually acceptable. Plus if you are winning over 90% in 1v1, their is an issue.
dunno, maybe 75% for Juggernaut is actually pretty good. realistically, it is a mode for Full Vars, non-vars got it rough at level cap and doubt that will ever change.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 13:13:05)

@Rabble froth- you just said it, you are BASICALLY balancing only one battle mode solo battle and praying for god so the other battle modes gets balance too?, i know other battle modes aren't that much important for you, because the most amount of players are playing in this battle mode, and actually you said you make balances not only by balance tracker, players suggestions and testers, i have put hell of suggestion in juggernauts discussion thread, none of them was even Discussed, and if we are going to talk about testers, just tell me one mod/dev/tester in your team have more 500 wins in juggernaut battle mode? yeah they can reach 100k wins in 1vs1, and not aloud for them to play juggernauts or even test it? if you want to talk about balances again please be a little bit more specific...



Stabilis -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 13:27:27)

Suggestions for battle tracker:

•determine stat placement

•determine rate of chance instances occurring

•determine the used skills

•determine the skill point allocation

•determine # of class changes per day

•determine # of classes changed to (120 Tech Mages) per day

•determine the average damage per turn

•determine # of times each skill is used per day

•determine where Waldo is

•determine # of battles won per day on average per each class

Thanks



Ranloth -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 13:43:06)

@above
If it was as easy to make then it would've been implemented already, don't you think so? <.< >.> I'd rather let Rabble focus on getting to making Tracker for 2v2 rather than that. Most of them can be found on Forum so it isn't a priority as much as 2v2 or Juggernaut.



khalidon5000 -> RE: Balance Tracker (5/1/2012 13:45:08)

quote:

•determine where Waldo is


A little lol IRL



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