RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (Full Version)

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100Rob123 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (3/1/2013 21:37:43)

I totally agree with Kaelin's second paragraph. I think that the root of the pushback of the LGBT people into one community is the people who are afraid of LGBT group. Many humans have the mindset that if something becomes more common or accepted, everyone will have to do it, and the people who are against the LGBT act upon it. I disagree with them, however. Today, we the advancements our world makes in a lot of categories, we have to keep being open-minded to new ideas and lifestyles. LGBT people are in no way mentally different than the rest of us humans. Their sexual preference, however, shouldn't be of concern to anyone who is not close to them.



King Helios -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (3/31/2013 19:42:02)

@james Lu

Adultery is deemed sinful by the 7th Commandment (I think it's 7th)

And good points for both paragraphs.



What do you guys think about the Supreme Court cases?



Kaelin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (4/1/2013 1:10:38)

As a notable exception, the Catholic tradition has adultery covered by the 6th commandment.

The thing with the SC cases is that we'll be waiting a few months to see them wrapped up. With high likelihood, DOMA will be struck down as a violation of the 10th Amendment. However, two people of the same sex married in a permissive state would NOT see a prohibiting state honor their marriage, and it seems that the federal government will not continue to regard the marriage as intact either unless the couple returns to a permissive state (although the latter could be changed in a separate court case). I think the latter could potentially need to be dealt with though, on the grounds that people are sometimes expected to move (by the military, by businesses, however), as it would be unwieldy to deal with the changing rights here.

Prop 8 is harder to read. If the court considers the equal protection aspect and deems Prop 8 violates it, it could theoretically be applied to whole country, and it would render all same-sex marriage prohibitions unconstitutional; if it deems no violation has taken place, then it could very well uphold Prop 8, making same-sex marriage illegal again, although this would likely be for a brief period of time as political opinion in California is prepared to reverse the law. However, Kennedy has a frustrating tendency to go with what his gut tells him and then picks arguments to fit the point he wants to make, and he may be the pivotal voice that leads to this case being dismissed or sent back to a lower court for further handling, which would keep Prop 8 dead (and same-sex marriage legal in California) but would not lead to any implications for the other states.



Einwill -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (4/1/2013 20:39:49)

Heck, I don't even see why homosexuality and similar things are such important topics. Be however you want, love whoever you want. It isn't anyone else's business and shouldn't be, which is why I never did understand why it is such a discussed topic.



teravor -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (4/1/2013 21:05:55)

Personally, I don't care who you are attracted to. Really, and I mean really think about why homosexuality is opposed.

Cuz... I really got nothing. Maybe it's just me, who honestly couldn't care less about romance, but I personally find it odd that people are against this.

Of course, there are always people who will feel oppressed by the existence of people who disagree with them, but I welcome opposing viewpoints. Cant get a good flamewar going if everybody agrees, right? Besides, what if I feel oppressed by YOU, internet tough guy?

But some people take it WAYYYYY too far in trying to get everybody to conform to their viewpoint. A good argument is invigorating, a psychotic rant is terrifying. And I have seen some pretty terrifying anti-homosexuality rants. Some I honestly am terrified to look up again. Some I am honestly terrified to simply think about.

But go ahead, get married to the man or woman you want, don't let gender determine who you love! And marriage is a civil contract anyway, with no meaning other than that which is applied to it by the united speakers of the English language, and can thus be easily redefined with no harm to those who want to marry someone of the opposite gender. People who automatically assume that homosexual marriage will outlaw heterosexual marriage are silly.



draketh99 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/18/2013 13:34:29)

Personally, I'm in that interesting spot in which, personally, I don't agree with homosexuality due to my religious beliefs. (While I have my reasons, I won't be posting them here, as they're purely personal and that's not what this thread is for. If anyone has any questions, they're more than welcome to PM me).

However, simply because I don't agree with it doesn't mean I don't think it should be socially acceptable, or that it shouldn't be legally recognized. I take no issue with the homosexual marriage being legal. Just as I would have nothing against someone who disagrees with me as to what kind of car is their favorite, I take no issue with anyone who disagrees with me on this topic either.

It's not my place to take issue with how someone else spends their life. I'll still love and care for a person who I disagree with, and this is no exception. There's no place or point in my mind for any hatred, disrespect or disharmony. I prefer to love people because they're people, and not lay on the condition that they agree with me on some particular issue.

In addition, it seems only fair in my mind, that if I am to want freedom for my religion, I must also be content with freedom from my religion. Just because I believe one thing, doesn't mean others in the society I interact in must conform to my beliefs and preferences.

While this topic can be very personal to many people, and that's why people can get offended easily on this topic (people of each side and opinion) I've made the decision not to be offended by it, nor to treat anyone else differently because of it.

My bottom line is that a person will have my love and respect if they are ever in need of it, because they're a person, and no less.

I hope my response has been both respectful and respectable to the rest of you forumites, and I wish all of you a wonderful day.



teravor -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/19/2013 8:38:41)

And it is that kind of position nobody is going to begrudge you on- you disagree, but you aren't going to try to force the world to conform to your worldview to the exclusion of everyone else's.

Most people will be fine if you don't agree with them, so long as you don't try to force them to agree with you. Accepting people can be different from you and still be people is kind of a big deal.

People like you are not the kind of people who usually cause problems. In fact, If I am to be honest, opinions like yours are refreshing in this kind of world: You disagree with someone, but you won't begrudge them for not being exactly like you.

Or did I totally misinterpret your opinions?



Ice Power! -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/19/2013 22:12:21)

@teravor

I disagree entirely. Tolerance for people you disagree with is nothing more than a thinly veiled acceptance of oppressive forces. The LGBT community (at least the fringe, non-cis white male part i.e. not the HRC) does not want the passivity of tolerance, because it does nothing to benefit us. It will not end police violence and abnormally high rates of poverty/homelessness among our community. Much like pacifism, inaction plays into the hands of the ruling class, and those who accept the ideal of "tolerance is enough" aid my oppressors.

Anyway, I have some news to contribute to the discussion. Argentina recently passed legislation granting trans* people the ability to bypass a large number of financial and legal barriers that still plague them in many other countries, including the United States. I'm very happy about this, but haven't seen much discussion in this thread about the LBT part of LGBT.



draketh99 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/19/2013 22:29:58)

Excuse me, Ice Power if I'm misinterpreting you in any way, however I'm not sure that's completely the case.

You see, as I said before, if I come across someone I believe to be suffering, I'm compelled to help them. It's not an apathy towards anyone and their lifestyle, as it's more of a respect for them regardless of lifestyle.

Due to my personal beliefs, I may not be the vigilante out shouting through the streets for any one particular cause. However, if I come across someone who I believe is being treated unfairly, I will do everything in my power to remedy the situation.

It's my goal not to tolerate people, but to love and respect them. I don't base myself or actions on particular causes or movements (there are simply ones I agree with and ones I don't) but I attempt to base myself and actions off of people, in spite of movements and causes.

And Teravor: I'm fairly sure you understood me correctly :)



Ice Power! -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/19/2013 22:48:17)

You aren't misinterpreting me, per say, but your response doesn't refute anything I said.

I'm sure you are a decent, nice person, but your individuality does nothing to tear down oppressive legal and economic systems. These systems are the root cause of individual acts of violence. They are backed by long histories stretching back hundreds of years and cannot be shaken by anything but a radical movement among the downtrodden. This is why those gatherings of people with like causes you dismiss so casually are more important than the individual.

If an act of violence occurred in front of you against an LGBT person for nothing more than being LGBT, I'm sure you would aid them, but this neglects to change what caused that act of violence in the first place. In that moment, it is enough to be protective of another human being. But in every moment but that one, what are you doing to address injustice?

This mindset, I argue, is just as impotent as mainstream tolerance movements among LGBT "allies".




ElementalLord -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/19/2013 23:00:34)

So what happens if we rise up, and tear down the oppressor, hmmm? What happens when the lower class, radically shifts the power spectrum and seizes control? Well, here's what. We sinply get new oppressors and new oppressed. Take for example, the French Revolution. THAT turned out SO well. We got bloodthirsty sadists like Napoleon, Robespierre, the Jocobins, while power-hungry, slimy beaurocrats like Talleyrand and Fouqeut sit by and take advantage of any situation. The thing is, there is ALWAYS going to be oppression, and there is always going to be an oppressed minority. Humans are basically stupid, and they will always need someone to blame everything on, and the government is always going to need a scapegoat. So, I welcome trying to equalize the world. Go for it - push through legislation, make LGBT have the same rights as everyone. But don't preach for radicals to take control, uproot and reorganize government, because when you do, you are really defending the very oppression that you claim to hate.



Corvus Corax -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/19/2013 23:14:01)

I'm going to step in here and remind people that the purpose of this thread isn't to goad people into action, soapbox or agitate. It's to have a discussion on how far the world has come in terms of the acceptance and acknowledgement of LGBT lifestyles. On the subject of tolerance vs intolerance:

quote:

The difference between tolerance and intolerance is how the disagreement is communicated. Tolerance affirms the intrinsic value of the other person. Intolerance seeks to tear down and destroy that value, not just of the person’s beliefs, but of the person herself or himself.

Intolerance is characterized by an inflammatory tone, rudeness, name calling, and a general lack of respect. Tolerance leaves the personhood intact. With tolerance, people can come to a point where they agree to disagree, but their relationship with each other is not affected in a negative way.


In this thread, and in the AE forums in general the kind of intolerance described above will not be tolerated. The minimum requirement for posting in this thread is an attitude of tolerance in that we affirm each others intrinsic value and be respectful enough towards each other that we can come together as equals and not part as enemies. If anyone has any questions about this, I invite you to contact me via PM.

~CC~



Human Psychology -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/20/2013 2:20:32)

The most impossible thing for a human being to comprehend; a lifetime is both short and inconsequential. We always seek control, because this leads to comfort, which is a form of happiness. This is why we are so fixated on LGBT lifestyles. People on both sides of the issue see an opportunity for the universe to be in alignment with themselves for once, and so bring all their passions and, more importantly, all their energies to the fight. However the thing itself is meaningless. Why waste so much time attempting to force a way of life onto others? "To be or not to be" truly is the question, because it denotes a choice, the possibility of anything. I myself am sitting here trying to create a convincing argument about how the whole fight is meaningless. I'm trying to convince you. It suddenly strikes me as ironic, because whether or not I type this out and OK it for publication, whether or not there are crowds of people marching around with signs overflowing with hatred against the LGBT, things change and are created as time moves relentlessly forwards. Human nature of history slowly becomes the human nature of today and tomorrow. That's it; I'm not here to spout the agenda of one side or the other. I'm just here as a reminder that futility is the ultimate course of things. That's not to say discussion isn't important; it's great to move ideas around. But the thing is to be more accepting of your opponent.



Densoro -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/20/2013 2:35:25)

Acceptance is indeed important; without it, you start attacking people instead of their ideas, and the ideas you do attack are words you've put in their mouths. It's necessary to understand your opponent even if all you want to do with that understanding is defeat them; it's the same as in a swordfight. If you don't understand the angle that the opponent is attacking you from, you won't be able to parry it. No amount of denial and accusation will make you any less dead /shrugs

However, it's still important to be passionately against injustice. It's important not to rest until we are a step closer to fairness. That's what progress is. The truth is, people too often hide behind 'opinion' when their opinion attempts to be a statement of fact -- when it has tangible effects on other people. That's not quite the same thing as the personal opinion that, say, vanilla ice cream is best. I'll respect people who disagree with gay rights, but I won't respect the 'facts' they attempt to assert. I will poke every hole in them that I possibly can, in the hopes that I'll tarnish their belief beyond use and they'll take up a more tenable one. By the same token, they're welcome to do the same to my ideological equipment; if there are problems with it, I don't want to continue using it. Take it from me and make me a better person. Ideas are replaceable.

That's the key to all this, I think. If you're going to admit that the direction of history is toward gay rights, then for your sake, you should find a reason why that's okay. Otherwise you'll feel bitter and victimized by this new movement.



ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/26/2013 10:27:08)

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/06/supreme-court-gay-marriage-live/66437/

Adding a quote to support the link:
quote:

The Supreme Court decided two cases on Wednesday. In one, the court struck down part of the national Defense of Marriage Act, which defined marriage as between one man and one woman. That will extend over 1,000 federal benefits to married gay couples.

In the second case, over California's Proposition 8 marriage ban, the justices had the opportunity to issue broad national guidance on the constitutional rights of gay couples to marry. However, the high court decided the case on procedural grounds which may allow gay marriage in California but leaves other states to decide for themselves.
Please do not post links only as that is considered spam. Thanks!

~CC~



Mordred -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/26/2013 12:49:15)

A stunning victory a long-time due.



teravor -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/26/2013 14:58:43)

Well, it was not easy, but it was worth it.

/E-Brohug, everyone. /E-brohug.



Densoro -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/27/2013 12:20:30)

The only thing that bugs me is that, near as I can tell, the reasoning used to repeal DOMA wasn't "Marriage is a fundamental human right, and to deny it would be blatant discrimination." It was more along the lines of "You [people who want to ban gay marriage] aren't lawmakers, so why should we listen to you? You have no legal standing." If that's the case, then it shows 1) that the American people still haven't convinced the courts that marriage equality should be maintained at all costs, and 2) that if we want to push a law through, ourselves, we might be denied on the same grounds. Which is creepy to think about.



Dragonman -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/27/2013 23:51:59)

I thought I already posted here... apparently not.

Let's start off the way most do, I'm male, straight and Catholic. However, I also completely support homosexual marriage, and I am greatly disturbed by the way that LGBT are, and have been, treated. In general, I don't care what you do, as long as you aren't hurting anybody.

I was not always this way. I am embarrassed to admit, when I was younger and more foolish, I thought that homosexuality was stupid and wrong. It took me far to long to realize I was stupid and wrong.

My Father is gay, which made me have a little hate in more recent years, although just specifically my Dad and his boyfriend. Of course, I expect that is only natural, to anyone in that situation, as I felt I shouldn't have existed. It has since been transmuted into anger at the mistreatment of the LGBT community, and hope that this greivous error in our society will one day be rectified.

Back to religion for a moment, I do not believe in a god (not God, a god) who would punish people for the way he made them. The most basic foundation of my beliefs is love and caring for all, I am simply unable to think that God would be otherwise.

And while I will probably never love everyone, I aspire to care or a least accept everyone, and that is, basically, what I think about everything, but specifically on LGBT.

Note: Do not read this as I do not care and am indifferent. I do care, wholeheartedly for LGBT rights.

EDIT: This topic's been dead for a long time, but I want something else to be known by any stalkers of this thread in the future. In my group of friends there is one, relatively out of place, friend who WAS once the classic bigoted Christian that society has came to know. He isn't anymore. Through the time he spent with us he's reevaluated his belief and decided that gay marriage was not a bad thing. When he told me this I cried tears of joy. It helps me to know that I've made one of my friends, already a good person, into an accepting one.



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/20/2014 20:45:03)

I understand that this thread has been dead a long time, but now that same sex marriage has been made legal in two states in the US recently, I thought now would be a good time to state my opinion on the matter.

I'll start off the way Dragonman did. I'm a bisexual male, who generally prefers women, and I'm a Christian. Specifically Episcopal.

I, like many others, strongly support same sex marriage, although most of my life I was surrounded by people who in my opinion were very close-minded about the topic. Not just marriage itself, but Homosexuality in general. I never really had a problem with it, even when the concept was first introduced to me by my friend's Baptist father, who was strongly against it. I didn't understand why it was "wrong".

Even though I do support homosexual marriage, and everything about it, I do see where those who oppose it are coming from. Marriage, as I know it, is a religious union, and I understand when people say it should stay that way even though I disagree. I'm of the opinion that Christianity is more about acceptance than punishment, especially in such a...sensitive matter as this.

Which brings me to another point, already brought up by other posters in this thread. Why is it made such a sensitive topic? Why does the "LGBT Lifestyle" exist? There's no..."Ginger Lifestyle" or "Left and Right handed lifestyle", so why is there such a separation? I feel labeling things as such only further segregates us as a species.


I really don't have much else to say on the matter...apart from that I'm proud that the US has come so far with accepting LGBT people (I can't really speak for the rest of the world, I have no traveling experience outside of the US) and I think we can only get better.



TJByrum -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/20/2014 22:48:05)

Whoa! I didn't you was the Head Moderator of the OOC room Eukara! Learn something new everyday I reckon. If it's okay to discuss this... alright then. Let's see if I can do this without getting into to much trouble.

I want to say that I was once one of the worst types of people. Not because I was mean or whatever, but because I was ignorant. Over time, especially the past few years, I have become a lot more tolerable. But the reason I use to be the way I was... I think it was where I grew up. I ain't saying the people I grew up with were bad, but they certainly weren't tolerant to some 'LGBT' lifestyles'. I think they've changed, just like I did. The point is, I think when people become exposed to new things like this it changes them and their point of view, and I think in recent decades the world as a whole has similarly changed.

In the end I think I believe in freedom. As in, you should be free to live life however you want to - so long as it doesn't interfere with the freedom of others. Any sort of restriction on freedom, no matter what, is something I am entirely against. Doesn't matter if its good or bad for me, freedom comes first.

Do I have my own opinions on the matter? Yes, of course I do, like everyone else. But do I let society/peers change that opinion? No.



Lord Noonien Soong -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/20/2014 23:33:14)

I in truth, support same sex marriage 100% even though I'm straight

This reminds me alot of the times of slavery and segregation, when people didn't accept those for being who they are and the way they live, since then, we've overcome that in the world of LGBT, in which we don't shun them out from the public for their choices. It's one big step towards making mankind not depending anymore on what one person thinks the way things should be in their eyes, but in the peoples eyes, the meaning of a democracy, which we fought for originally in the Revolutionary War and in the Civil War, now it brings one brother to another and one sister to another. As the quote goes,One man (any kind of person) can make a difference



TJByrum -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/21/2014 9:41:14)

@LNS: Yeah, exactly. The world is becoming more tolerable as a whole. There's still racism, sexism, and discrimination, but as a whole the world is slowly becoming much more tolerable. While I don't necessarily agree with everything, I always discard my beliefs in favor of freedom: I think freedom should be everyone's number one priority.



sporetox -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/21/2014 22:52:37)

I find a hard part of being gay is not to be mad at entire groups of people. There are days when all the hate gets to me, and I want to hate back. But I do have religious friends who don't hate, and I usually just talk to them about it.

Also, when I see people get penalized, fired, or otherwise for making their homophobic views public, I feel a strange mix of happiness and guilt. I'm incredibly happy that society is viewing homophobia as a serious issue. On the other hand, I feel like they do have a right to their opinion, no matter how I feel about the opinion itself.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like penalizing the people who hate us is only hurting the message of love and equality the LGBT community stands for.



Seth Hydra -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/30/2014 11:00:48)

Wow, I didnt know such a thread existed..

I fully support the movement, though for one I don't see the reason people get so much stick for having a different orientation. I mean its their choice, and no one has any business to interfere.
I for one grow up in a pretty orthodox household and when I was in middle school, calling anyone gay was regarded as an insult. For one, none of us knew what it implied, and I wont deny that did not refrain from using it. But that changed when my dad actually corrected me...I'm not proud of it.

Though from what I observe the majority of the people that are against the LGBT community are either older generations, or belong to a deeply religious communities. None of the people from my age bracket actually oppose, and frankly are quite pro. This was specifically evident when same-sex marriage was banned in my country of origin (India). The uproar was quite spectacular, and it goes to show the open minded nature the current generation has.

@Sporetox: Sometimes you need to take harsh decisions, if you wanna get across. Unless you penalize someone and make an example out of it, the homophobia wont stop. Frankly, I get how it must feel considering i'm an Atheist and I get a whole load of taunts everyday(One's which Im more than happy to throw back at that..) some, even from my mother...

It's all down to education IMO, the way the children minds are made to think from a grass root level, since that's what their thinking is gonna solidify into. Children have to be molded into having an open outlook, and being tolerant otherwise, as you said, the vicious cycle will continue.



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