RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (Full Version)

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sporetox -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (5/30/2014 14:09:55)

quote:

@Sporetox: Sometimes you need to take harsh decisions, if you wanna get across. Unless you penalize someone and make an example out of it, the homophobia wont stop. Frankly, I get how it must feel considering i'm an Atheist and I get a whole load of taunts everyday(One's which Im more than happy to throw back at that..) some, even from my mother...

It's all down to education IMO, the way the children minds are made to think from a grass root level, since that's what their thinking is gonna solidify into. Children have to be molded into having an open outlook, and being tolerant otherwise, as you said, the vicious cycle will continue.


The issue is that some parents are raising kids to be intolerant, into a world that is becoming more tolerant. This is putting those kids at a HUGE disadvantage for the future. And they will pass those lessons onto their children. The topic is never mentioned in public schools, and it should be. The purpose of school is to prepare children for life as an adult, and Adults need to tolerate other people at least well enough to work together.



Faeyrin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/1/2014 14:48:06)

For a long while, I've had my own theories on why things concerning LGBT aren't as far along as we'd like them to be. I don't exactly know if anyone wants to hear a random forumite ramble about their observations, but I've never actually put it in writing/typing yet. So why not do it now, huh? Also, Sporetox's point coincides with the latter part of my theory.


To start off, the divorce rate of America needs to be noted. Around the mid to late sixties the divorce rate skyrocketed and came to a climax somewhere in the eighties. It's been slowly going back down, but the damage has clearly been done and the divorce rate is still terribly higher than what it was before the skyrocket. The number of kids with a unified and happy family just isn't what it used to be. Very many of them are stuck between shared custody, inconsistent visiting, or perhaps not even seeing the other parent at all.

So what's the effect to the cause of kids being stuck in these situations? They grow up with an imbalance between a feminine and masculine role model in their lives. The two most prevalent results of that are probably one gender being uneasy or afraid with displaying traits of the other, because they never had that other gender role model like they should have. Or, this may well be a catalyst to the creation of trans-gendered individuals, if the kid with the divorced parents is mainly around the parent of the opposite gender.

Both of these results are bad because it leads to the creation of an unbalanced individual. The first result is surely the worst, not the second. The first can result in the bigots we see today who are against LGBT rights.

So now we have unbalanced individuals who don't have a firm grasp on how gender should be handled. Say a son is mostly around his rather masculine father, the son may just end a big extrapolation of masculinity and shy away from any traits that aren't so. They just don't get it, and what do humans do when they come across something they don't understand, can't comprehend? They lash out in various ways.

The lashing out is what you see today. Lobbyists against same gender marriage, trans-gender rights? That's how they lash out. In more extreme cases, more immature ones, I see youth in schools making fun of another male for simply having long hair.

But wait, that's not all! As Sporetox has noted, schools are supposed to prepare youth for life as an adult. At least in America, we know it fails on almost every level. One such levels is the fact that there's nothing officially being taught about equality issues. These issues are big, people will encounter these issues, but schools do nothing. Sure, you might have a well meaning teacher here and there cutting into curriculum time by lecturing their class on equality, but it isn't enough. Courses about equality need to be in the curriculum itself, if schools so desire to indeed prepare youth for adulthood.

TL;DR: It's all a vicious cycle, especially in America. Youth are raised with an imbalance due to divorce, schools don't teach about modern equality issues, people go into the world with bigoted views and propagate it, then probably get divorced somewhere with a kid.



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/1/2014 15:34:00)

@Faeyrin Personally, I don't think it's as complex as that. I think the reason the LGBT "community", so to speak, has been held back when it comes to rights, simply because the older generations find it more difficult to accept a newer way of thinking. As newer, sometimes more open minded generations gain rights, so does the LGBT community.

Even though I fully support homosexual rights, I can see how it can be hard to accept something that was so taboo growing up. What if, say, in 30 years, people start trying to make cannibalism legal? As of now, most of us consider this act atrocious, and it would be difficult to see the logic behind someone who fights for it, because we are so used to it being "wrong" in our society.



Faeyrin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/1/2014 15:51:05)

That is a reason, too. There are many reasons. The reason I talked about is something I feel isn't really touched upon as much as it should be.

In as far as your bit about taboos? Well, humans are creatures of habit. They always have been. It takes a lot to break the habits of humanity and when something goes against its habits, the newer ideal has a pretty hard time. It's a fault of humanity, if you asked me. Of course, I can't claim what I'll be thinking and doing when I'm middle to old aged. I'm just a spry teen who isn't even an adult yet, I know full well my brain is very receptive to new things. Maybe I'll become jaded and be what I preached against. Fortunately, I know a good number of older folk who haven't turned their mind off to new things, so it gives me some hope.



Jmagician -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/1/2014 23:02:01)

Oooh, this is an interesting topic.

In this world, or in this life, civilizations have changed drastically over the course of history. However, one thing that has been the same was the idea of marriage being between a man and a women. Surely this idea was bound by the way of nature for a male and female to be with one another. That being said, gay or bi-sexual, IMO, is nothing bizarre. I can just understand why our society, or portions of it, defends straight marriage so much. It is a very ancient concept and one of the very few that has carried onto generations. Now the hate, is a different story. Hate is just caused by ignorant and closed-minded people.

Now, where I stand in all this? I don't lol. I find it hard enough to connect with the current society let alone relate to LGBT movements. As long as I am strong physically, mentally and spiritually, then I am happy. I wasn't too fond of gays myself. I admit, I grew up as a kid calling people gay as an insult. But I was always a naturally open-minded person. As I grew up into an adult and met a couple of gay people, I realized their character was pretty cool. So, I don't call people gay anymore cause I found out there was nothing insulting about the idea. However, when a guy dresses like a girl and acts like one, that gives me chills. It isn't hate, I just don't understand that specific type of lifestyle.



Faeyrin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/1/2014 23:22:58)

Jmagician: I dare say I don't believe that anywhere in my studies of history I've read that marriage has always been like so. I can agree that in societies that have held close to Abrahamic religions, you are right. Beyond that? No.

I am quite curious about something you said as well.

quote:

However, when a guy dresses like a girl and acts like one, that gives me chills.


Do tell. Does it weird you out if said 'guy' whom does this is not passable for the gender they are trying to be? Or is even a passable transgendered person doing just such weird you out?



Jmagician -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/2/2014 0:16:29)

@Faeyrin: I'll do my part in research. Believe me lol, I have re-written my response so many times because I found it so hard to confidently state my facts but I thought I was certain of that one. I'm talking about the initial and original idea of marriage that connects a man and a woman.

About that statement that hit your curiosity. Do I have to tell? lol. At the moment, I don't have enough reasoning to tell myself it isn't weird.

I do try to respect everyone's lifestyles though. I may not agree with them, but I respect their decisions to be their own.



Faeyrin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/2/2014 0:45:50)

I just want to know why it makes you feel the way you say it makes you feel. I am not offended by the statement, nor am I trying to offend you. However I am an advocate and ally for all things LGBT and therefore I love to know what makes people think the way they do, so that I can understand about this all as much as I can.



Jmagician -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/2/2014 10:28:18)

Well, simply put, I find it odd how one cannot understand one's own gender. How something so natural can be so misunderstood and that few actually knowingly violate this identity. If those who do this without any kind of GID, then I would just have to respect their choice. But, I am greatly interested in having to know the story behind those who really do have GID. Not an anecdotal one, but a scientific one.

No worries about being offended :) I'm also just as interested in knowing things as you are.



liamliam1234liam -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/2/2014 10:54:22)

It is a mental/biological issue. I say that not as something which needs to be "fixed" or "corrected", or possibly even something that could be. Something in their brains causes a split in their perception of self and their typical biological or societal trappings. The typical phrasing is that they feel as if they were born into the wrong body, or born into a body which carries expectations with which they disagree. Understanding has nothing to do with it, nor is it in any way a violation of identity. Rather, they simply want to embrace their identity. While a metaphorical comparison is tricky, similarities are conceptually shared with using contact lens or dyes to change your eye or hair colour (respectively), with the key stipulation that those are often done more for fashion than a fundamental rejection of "natural" eye or hair colour. Transgendered individuals who feel imprisoned by their perception by others or their biology often suffer from severe depression or anxiety as a result of an inability to conform to their mental perception of themselves, and summarily suicide rates for these individuals are tragically high when they lack the means to reconcile such a division.

On a different note, as to the theory about divorce somehow correlating with intolerance toward the homosexual community, not only do I think there is no positive correlation there, I would argue there is far more likely to be a negative correlation. Often those opposed to homosexuality are products of an environment condemning homosexuality, and said environment is often related to certain religious teachings. In case you are unfamiliar, doctrines which advocate against homosexuality also tend to be rather opposed to divorce. But wait, there is more! The idea that being exposed to simply one gender would somehow cause fear of homosexuality directly contrasts with the blatantly and scientifically inaccurate but nevertheless frequently utilised theory dictating children need different gendered parents in order to properly function. Why would someone who grew up with one dad and no mom be opposed to growing up with two dads and no mom? Furthermore, if rising divorce rates truly did impact intolerance of homosexuals, one would think society would be moving against equal marriage rather than toward it. Sorry, Faeyrin, but I do not think your theory has any legitimate logical or empirical basis.



Faeyrin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/2/2014 14:43:39)

quote:

Transgender is a single word and a hyphen is unnecessary. The word itself is an adjective and adding "-ed" to transgender makes it a verb. Just a bit of information.


Noted. Three cheers for English.

quote:

Well, simply put, I find it odd how one cannot understand one's own gender. How something so natural can be so misunderstood and that few actually knowingly violate this identity. If those who do this without any kind of GID, then I would just have to respect their choice. But, I am greatly interested in having to know the story behind those who really do have GID. Not an anecdotal one, but a scientific one.

No worries about being offended :) I'm also just as interested in knowing things as you are.


The problem is that the person in this situation DOES understand their gender. They understand their gender is different from the sex they were born with. Maybe you know or maybe you don't but it's worth saying - gender (identity) and sex are two different things. Linked and related, but not synonyms.

An opposing gender identity and sex isn't really natural or unnatural if you look at it from the perspective of its sum of reasons. It may be the result of 'crossed wires' in synapses which surely is natural because one is born that way, or an upbringing that is counter intuitive to what resides in one's nether regions, and that is going against the grain of nature. Personally, I was never one to think it to matter too much. The definition for the word 'natural' is a misnomer to me because humanity is a product of nature.

I digress. We're at odds with your use of the word 'natural', so I'll just move to the next point.

I don't think anyone tries to 'violate' their identity does so without a gender identity disorder. Otherwise, why would they even do so? I guess I could insert some bigoted comment about me, a rather liberal LGBT advocate, still not understanding drag queens. Even so, they have a valid mentality to themselves, so who am I to judge?

And if you want real explanations behind gender identity disorders, do see liam's post. There aren't citations or graphs or the like, but the answer is satisfactory in my opinion.

quote:

On a different note, as to the theory about divorce somehow correlating with intolerance toward the homosexual community, not only do I think there is no positive correlation there, I would argue there is far more likely to be a negative correlation. Often those opposed to homosexuality are products of an environment condemning homosexuality, and said environment is often related to certain religious teachings. In case you are unfamiliar, doctrines which advocate against homosexuality also tend to be rather opposed to divorce. But wait, there is more! The idea that being exposed to simply one gender would somehow cause fear of homosexuality directly contrasts with the blatantly and scientifically inaccurate but nevertheless frequently utilised theory dictating children need different gendered parents in order to properly function. Why would someone who grew up with one dad and no mom be opposed to growing up with two dads and no mom? Furthermore, if rising divorce rates truly did impact intolerance of homosexuals, one would think society would be moving against equal marriage rather than toward it. Sorry, Faeyrin, but I do not think your theory has any legitimate logical or empirical basis.


You have valid points, but in as far as I know there is no empirical data from studies for this issue at all. Not for what I argue and not for what you argue. Even so, my theory isn't some ultimate reason, I just think it's one reason alone. Certainly, religious teachings that you mentioned are definitely a factor.



Edit: For what it's worth, I may as well toss this onto the thread. The 'gender bread' man.



Seth Hydra -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/3/2014 7:12:10)

Even though I fully support homosexual rights, I can see how it can be hard to accept something that was so taboo growing up. What if, say, in 30 years, people start trying to make cannibalism legal? As of now, most of us consider this act atrocious, and it would be difficult to see the logic behind someone who fights for it, because we are so used to it being "wrong" in our society.

One difference being that Homosexuality does not bring any sort of harm to others. I don't get how you would even compare the two... it like apples and meat pies, completely on different ends. Aside from the comparison, I can see what youre trying to get at.
If we went a century back in time, Racism was rife and common. Segregation based on caste/Religion/Ethnicity/Language/Colour was something that wasn't considered wrong. Fast forward to the current year, and anyone with such an ideology and practice is gonna find him/herself in the prison(Not to mention, beaten up). Personally it's a phase, and it will pass by. The way people think, their practices and outlooks keep changing, so this current homophobia might just be a phase, something that future generations will probably scoff at.




Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/3/2014 9:43:43)

quote:

One difference being that Homosexuality does not bring any sort of harm to others.


That's the thing. Back in the 1950s, they would have regular PSA's about homosexuals, who were basically considered the same thing as pedophiles. So, back THEN they were considered as "harmful", as we see cannibalism. My point was that although something may seem atrocious now, you have no idea how it may be seen in the future.



black knight 1234567 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/3/2014 10:05:22)

First of all, i'd like to get off the bat that i'm a complete supporter of LGBT rights, but I don't buy the whole ''you're born with it'' thing. Scientific and psychological evidence suggest that while genes may or may not play a part in it, for the most part it is actually possible to make a person gravitate back towards the opposite gender, and that its probably heavily impacted by one's surroundings growing up.

The discussion of sex and sexual activity is still prohibited in this thread, even within the context of links. Please read over any articles you post and assure that they're within the rules and guidelines of the forum you're posting. You're as responsible for the articles you post as you are your own discussion. -Draketh99



sporetox -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/3/2014 12:15:14)

@above,

Sure, people can change how they live. But who's to say that the ones doing so are "Happy"? Believe me, if it were really a choice, I'd take the easier way.

I've heard the argument before too. Just because we can settle for less and live miserable lives for the "Good of society", doesn't mean we should.

You can force yourself to eat that plate of lard, but who's saying you'll like it, or that it will be good for you?


Please do not quote the post directly above you, this spams up the thread. -Draketh99



draketh99 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/3/2014 13:42:28)

I'm having to do some cleaning up in this thread, and I would like to remind everyone of the ground rules set by Eukara at the beginning of this thread.
quote:

1. Do not present discussions in a manner that is inflammatory, no matter your personal opinion. You can discuss without being cruel, mean and trollish.

2. This is not a "Dear Abby" thread. In other words, this is not the place to post your issues and ask for advice on how to deal with it.

3. Though you may make mention of personal experiences, this is NOT a thread for personal soapboxes, vendettas and such. Mention if it is perfectly relevant, otherwise, leave it out.

4. This thread is not in anyway, an anti-gay/pro-gay thread. Please do not make it such a place. Making it so will be seen as soapboxing, which was covered in the previous rule. This is a discussion on impact and influence.

5. This is a universal rule and it seems to have been overlooked. "Do not post anything that may offend : Any sexually explicit language." The discussion of sex, the action of sex, and details of sex are not allowed under universal rules. Please refrain from it in this thread.


Rules of discussion, with special emphasis on rule #5, also applies to any links posted in the thread and on the forum. Please read your articles and keep track of anything you link to be sure it falls within the rules and guidelines of this thread and this forum.

In addition, courteous and respectful is expected, and even more so on sensitive topics such as this. Please be sure to read and re-read your posts before hitting the "OK" button to be sure of what you say.

Some things also to keep in mind: good of the individual vs. good of the whole(society) is often a matter that differs culturally, please keep this in mind and be respectful of those whose views you may not agree with.

If there are any ambiguities that you're unsure of, feel free to contact myself or another OOC Moderator or ArchKnight, otherwise, see the =AE= Comprehensive Forum Rules or =OOC= The Rules of OOC for any clarification you may need.




Faeyrin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/3/2014 15:04:20)

quote:

First of all, i'd like to get off the bat that i'm a complete supporter of LGBT rights, but I don't buy the whole ''you're born with it'' thing. Scientific and psychological evidence suggest that while genes may or may not play a part in it, for the most part it is actually possible to make a person gravitate back towards the opposite gender, and that its probably heavily impacted by one's surroundings growing up.


I believe this to be the case, too. I personally am very fluid in all of this, a gender fluid pansexual individual. I don't think I was born like that, in fact I quite recall being a rather heterosexual 'normal' person for most my life. I went through voluntary changes and now I am what I am. The same applies to a lot of my friends whom do not fall within the gender binary or are not heterosexual.

If I had to make a conjecture, the excuse/reason that is someone being born like so is a defense mechanism. LGBT folk are persecuted enough as is, and for a bigot to know that it was the voluntary choice of an individual to live as they do? Oh, that's much more fuel to the fire. No one likes the flames licking at their feet, so they say what they will to inhibit the burn as much as possible.

It's just one possible reason. There may well be other reasons. I'm sure there is a good likelihood that even here an LGBT person would tell me I'm wrong, and they were born as they were. I can't say they're wrong, but I can still have my sociological findings in my pocket.



Kaelin -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 1:58:07)

I'm not convinced of the argument that divorce rate contributes to bigotry. Divorce contributes to instability in a child's upbringing, which is bad. At the same time, life expectancy is now longer (a plus, but it gives couples more time to potentially seek a divorce), women are less financially-dependent on men they marry (making it easier for them to escape a bad or even dangerous relationship, a plus), so there are reasons for the rate increase that are actually good. Many families with something besides the "normal" man+woman couple at the head (sometimes from divorce) can also function well (often with friends and relatives pitching in), and these examples can break down stereotypes. It is problematic if a single parent imposes a gender-stereotypical upbringing, but the same or worse can happen with two parents imposing a gender-stereotypical upbringing (and it's not a huge stretch to assume such adults tend to pair off), so I don't think divorce is a factor in those logistics. [This is not to say divorce is good thing, but it is a consequence of a bad marriage and an opportunity to end the bad marriage. A key is in preventing bad marriages.]

Regarding the "you're born with it / you're not born with it" argument, one's predispositions seem to be something one is born with, although it may take a while for some to manifest (sometimes puberty kicking-in can be a wake-up call). However, our own nature is often a riddle that we struggle to figure out. Finding out what we we're after (even things far beyond the scope of GLBT) is not always easy, especially when society barrages us with messages and gives us feedback about what is possible (or not possible). Many of us are born with the potential to realize certain things, but while it may seem blatantly obvious for some people, it's often contingent on certain factors drawing our attention to take us outside the path laid out for us. I'm inclined to say the person is "born with it," but "it" can be much more nebulous or difficult to pin down than we would like to accept.

Faeyrin has discussed this point to some extent, but I would like to elaborate about the "guy dresses like a girl and acts like one" discussion (the linked infograph is accurate, but it's not necessarily the best tool for understanding what's going on the first time around). Society provides a whole lot of messages to condition people to develop negative responses with this presentation, but those messages broadly center around gender norms and women being regarded as objects of desire for men (notably "women dressing and acting like men" does not typically invoke the same response, because men aren't subjected to the same standards as women). Even if people do their best to be above these messages, they are not immune to them. To grasp the issue of "why" someone presents in this way is complicated, because there are many reasons (depending on the person). For a short incomplete list:

1) He's doing it for reasons of fitting-in (trying to be funny, fulfilling a dare, doing it for Halloween)
2) He's playacting (common with kids) or doing a performance
3) The person is a drag queen (this is usually an *exaggerated* form of the female-stereotype, with an overdone appearance and personality)
4) She is transgender (female identity, yet born with male/ambiguous anatomy; may or may not undergo surgery)
5) He's a man whose presentation and expressions are naturally "feminine"
6) The person's gender identity is non-binary, genderfluid, or something outside of the usual female/male binary, and their appearance/presentation may pass for female at that time

The answer to "why" ends up being a good deal more complicated, because the reasons are all over the place, but some of these are quiet reasonable. In the case of #4 and #6, it is worth recognizing that a person may even reject the "guy" label imposed upon them (and the field of psychology has come a long way and recognized that these determinations can be healthy and functional). Nevertheless, an elephant in the room is that "dresses like a girl" and "acts line one" have the meanings they do, because these are social norms and stereotypes. If one can "unlearn" rules like "a dress means a woman" and "a train means a man," it can go a long way towards dropping associations that make us expect a particular gender and instead pay attention to the person and their thoughts. It's a long, hard road, though.



black knight 1234567 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 9:19:48)

Sportex@ of course i'm not suggesting that ''oh they should all just become heterosexuals'' or whatever, not at all, but its just one thing I thought i'd point out, and i'm in agreement with Faeyrin that its probably a kind of defense mechanic to stop homophobes from getting something to ''pinch'' homosexuals with so to speak.



liamliam1234liam -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 11:02:01)

I know I could not choose to be homosexual. I could choose to participate in homosexual acts, yes, but I am simply not attracted to men in that way. I never made that choice. I cannot make that choice any more than I could my favourite food. I do not choose my tastes or taste buds, nor do I choose my leanings toward certain sexes. Science has also found a mother's third son is more likely to be homosexual than her first son, regardless of environment (i.e. regardless of whether they are influenced by older brothers or not). No one chooses to be gay. You can choose to act certain ways, and maybe, just maybe, you can eventually condition yourself to naturally act opposite your biological inclinations, but that is not the same thing. When you have to actively suppress your nature in order to simply find a possibility of change, then nature is not truly a matter of choice.



sporetox -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 11:21:22)

@Black Knight I still don't buy it. I've always been a sucker for the easy way. If it were really my choice and I could be happy either way, I'd just be a "Normal" member of society. Besides, it's not any protection against homophobes, who just dismiss it as false.

I really don't like saying that religion is really the source of most homophobia, because there are many people I know who are religious who aren't homophobic (I even know a few Christians who are openly Gay, that surprised me). But it seems to be more true than untrue. I have met very few homophobes who weren't religious, and don't back up their hate by claiming that it's what the bible (Or any other religious text) told them. I don't hate religious people, you are free to believe whatever you wish (I'd just prefer you to believe the parts that involve berating me on the inside), but the real problem is out of government control, in private schools and churches. And that's why hateful opinions will likely never stop existing. It has nothing to do with divorce, or the type of family someone has had. I'm not saying we should be against religious people, but we should make some effort to educate them enough to a point where even if they don't agree with LGBT lifestyles, they can tolerate them enough for us to coexist as a society.



black knight 1234567 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 11:49:01)

Obviously as the article I linked which was understandably removed said, its possible to condition someone but it isn't an easy, over night thing that happens. Again it is also said that genes may play some part in it, but for the most part its not the deciding factor of your sexual orientation, I don't think anyone comes out gay straight from the womb.

And yeah to be honest you don't have to agree with the idea of homosexuality, but you shouldn't limited those who are homosexual, as tolerance is infact also part of religion and when you think about, its what holds any society together.



liamliam1234liam -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 13:36:02)

It is also possible to condition a left-handed person to be right-handed, but that does not mean they are not naturally left-handed.



black knight 1234567 -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 14:03:36)

Perhaps so but there is completely solid 100% evidence that people are genetically born left handed. When it comes to homosexuality its more or less something that becomes ingrained over time but it isn't as genetic as one might think. Its not easy to just completely flip a person's attractions but it isn't a set in stone thing but bit of a variable, affected by what's around you.



Starstruck -> RE: The World and LGBT Lifestyles (6/4/2014 16:15:42)

@blackknight

>its not the deciding factor of your sexual orientation

See: Schizophrenia.

No, homosexuality is not a genetic condition. You cannot tell if baby will be gay or not by looking at its DNA, and you never will be able to even if the whole genome is unlocked and ready for perusal.

Schizophrenia is also not a genetic condition. It is not coded into someone's DNA "okay at age 20 we're going to start displaying symptoms."

But then why would it be not a choice if it's not a genetic thing?

Well, within the womb, there are several hormones and viruses floating around. Schizophrenia has been linked to prenatal viral infections in certain sensitive individuals (a very low percentage of people who have this sensitivity actually have schizophrenia). It's the same way, conjecturally, with LGBT. Hormonal effects within the womb can result in abnormal brain development, resulting in a flipped switch that leads to homosexual desires. (simplified)

Essentially, nature vs. nurture ends with them both losing to Neither. It's not in the DNA, and it's not in the environment; it's in the circumstances.



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