RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 14:07:00)

Dragonman111 it wasn't even reroute that was the issue it was rabble buffing up plasma bolt and plasma rain to the point were it was Overpowered. Besides Like Darkwing said what would you give TM in exchange for reroute? all classes now have two passives, by taking away one and not replacing it with one that fits the class it will ruin the class. Like TLM and CH TM is an energy based class and reroute give back energy at the cost of a beating. Hence the reason why the high HP casters can abuse it along with the other casters. However those who don't have high health can't abuse it like that since they can't take a beat like that to consistently loop it. Remember it is the high hit point high energy casters that need the nerfing not everyone else and removing reroute would not only hurt every single TM but leave the class with one passive which would put TM at an even bigger disadvantage.

Plus if you made the plasma bolt work with dex like Darkwing said be giving TM an even more overpowered caster build. The only difference would be that TM would be spamming dex instead of tech.

It has been said before and I will say it again Plasma bolt and Plasma rain both need stat requirements, Plasma bolt should power up with every 4 tech instead of 3 and up the energy cost to 33 at max like it was before they buffed it. With it that way not only is it less powerful, but it will be harder to loop. Plus since it can still be comboed with other abilites it won't hurt the lower levels as much since that was the original reason why Rabble buffed up plasma bolt and rain only to chance the rain to dex and supercharge to tech.

Also make plasma bolt improve with support? That would be like giving Smoke to a merc. In other words it would be an OP combo since Plasma bolt would improve with the same stat that Malf does. I already seen support builds with a malf that can take away 51 tech. image someone doing this then following up with a supercharge support plasma bolt? Plus since they will have high support it will increase their chances to crit you and if they are using the war weapon oh god it will be devastating.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 14:18:26)

Mother1@ Yes I know as I siad I was joking what I think is we should give TM plasma bolt a stat requiremnt and make it increase every 4 instead of 3 with tech.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 14:20:13)

^ Sorry I didn't see that when I was posting.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 14:33:44)

Since Plasma Bolt is a tier 1 skill and people are calling for requirements then Double strike, Cheap shot, and fireball should get requirements as well especially cheap shot and Double strike.

Since they are always want to balance things out get rid of shadow arts to make blocking equal to all classes. Ever since Shadow Arts was introduced it screwed up dex even without Shadow Arts on the Hunter classes were able to block more often.

So now everyone sees the Leader boards,you don't see Blood Mages even close to the top anymore, you rarely see Blood Mages in battle because they were nerfed to oblivion and Titan refuses to undo any nerfs especially to the Plasma Cannon or the multis which Artillery strike is still the strongest so even with the nerfs to multis it affected multi-shot and Plasma Rain more than Artillery strike.

Constant nerfs kills classes and does not solve the balance problems. It ruins variety and creativity.

Listening to the unwise minority does not bring balance to the classes but brings disgust, ill-content, and unhappiness to the majority due to nerf after nerf after nef.

Listening to the constant class hoppers whom are loyal to no class and are either class hoping to the most powerful class or out to destroy one or two classes so when they go back to their favorite class they got what they want dominance and lack of balance.

I hope that the staff especially Titan will start thinking things through before they destroy another class by listening to the minority that has an obscured sense of balance.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 15:15:16)

[sarcasm]Let's give DEF Matrix a requirement, kingq! Since Support is so OP!

How about we also give Blood Mages a passive torip of the heads of non-BMs![/sarcasm]

On-topic: I support new scaling; no STR requirement needed with Malf.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 15:33:53)

quote:

So now everyone sees the Leader boards,you don't see Blood Mages even close to the top anymore, you rarely see Blood Mages in battle because they were nerfed to oblivion and Titan refuses to undo any nerfs especially to the Plasma Cannon or the multis which Artillery strike is still the strongest so even with the nerfs to multis it affected multi-shot and Plasma Rain more than Artillery strike.

Yes. Because LBs judge how good class is.. So Lvl 20 or below players who win daily state that balance is great? <_< >_> Also you say how we're unwise minority, class jumpers and such are bad for opinions. You aren't much better if BMs are nerfed to oblivion. I see you using Focus 5 BM, but do you actually use the Bot or whine how BMs are UP because you cannot create a build? This is YOUR argument how Mercs are apparently dumb and beg for a buff. <_< >_>



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 15:55:10)

Ok Hun you know if we take away shadow arts from the hunters what passive would we give them in exchange? Remember taking away a passive without giving one in return will put the class at a disadvantage. Also none of the other Current passive would fit without Over powering the class or in Adrenaline's case weaken them.




Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 16:17:01)

And to this day forward I still manage it as a Bloodmage...

quote:

I hope that the staff especially Titan will start thinking things through before they destroy another class by listening to the minority that has an obscured sense of balance.


Admitting is the first step...
Have you noticed that you are the only one complaining about BloodMage?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 16:24:38)

I would definitely exchange Shadow Arts for a reliable passive skill. Example skills could be incorporating: poison resistance for Cyber Hunter, bonus to EMP Grenade (increased damage to energy) and bonus to Energy Shield (increased Resistance) for Bounty Hunter.

These are basic examples that are not too prevalent in their most exploited builds, such as not suggesting passive bonus damage to Bounty Hunter due to Bloodlust... or passive bonus to Field Medic health to Cyber Hunter due to Static Charge (easier health loop).

Remember guys, keep it balanced and consider the entire skill tree!



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 16:46:34)

Giving poison resistance to Cyber hunters in exchange for shadow arts would be a nerf. Shadow arts while it works with chance is equal in effect for all classes. While this Posion resist would only work for 3 classes since only three of them have poison skills. Also this would also mess with those skills for these three classes as well especially with Tech Merc since they use toxic grenade more then hunter use their poison claws.

Also an EMP bonus to Bounty hunters? I am sorry no. People are already complaining about EMP's as it is since it is not only higher up on the tier tree, but unblockable as well unlike the other skills that are blockable and are at the bottom to the tier tree. So you want to take away shadow arts for a passive that will power up a move that is already OP? This passive would help to destroy builds even more and would upset balance.

While Shadow arts can be annoying since it give increases chances of blocking it is all up to chance which isn't granteed while these passives for the hunter classes are granteed to wreak some if not all builds.



Renegade Reaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 17:04:48)

ok this is off the current topic of SA, but i thought of it while being bored at work...

players are complaining about strength bloodmages and caster tech mages. what if fireball and plasma bolt were switched? that would reduce the number of both
of those kinds of builds.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 17:22:53)

^...

BM: Plasma Cannon, Supercharge, Plasma Bolt, and Bloodlust?

1-10-1
8-7-0
0-1-0
0-7-2

That'd kill.



nis70770 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 17:31:20)

Renegade Reaper, if that would happen then Tech mage would be WAAAYYY OP. Tech mages will have the perfect Strength build Fire ball with bludgeon, and conversion with deadly aim. With conversion on you will need the minimum mana/EP



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 17:41:19)

Renegade Repear- You would OP the both of those classes to the extreme.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 19:29:55)

quote:

Giving poison resistance to Cyber hunters in exchange for shadow arts would be a nerf. Shadow arts while it works with chance is equal in effect for all classes. While this Posion resist would only work for 3 classes since only three of them have poison skills. Also this would also mess with those skills for these three classes as well especially with Tech Merc since they use toxic grenade more then hunter use their poison claws.

Also an EMP bonus to Bounty hunters? I am sorry no. People are already complaining about EMP's as it is since it is not only higher up on the tier tree, but unblockable as well unlike the other skills that are blockable and are at the bottom to the tier tree. So you want to take away shadow arts for a passive that will power up a move that is already OP? This passive would help to destroy builds even more and would upset balance.

While Shadow arts can be annoying since it give increases chances of blocking it is all up to chance which isn't granteed while these passives for the hunter classes are granteed to wreak some if not all builds.


So, you argue that exchanging poison resistance for increased chance to block would be a nerf because... Shadow Arts affects more in gameplay with 6 classes on any melee attack as opposed to 3 classes on only poison. That is understandable, poison resistance affects less. Though, frequency should be accounted for. In the event of poison, poison resistance works 100% of the time, indefinitely reliable (but again, only during poison). In the event of melee, increased blocking chance works up to 10% of the time. Even less than 50%. The problem with Shadow Arts, is that the skill is a RNG variable in a strategy game. RNG can definitely be used to improve some aspects of strategy, not all of it. All random chance in a game is essentially an online casino. One part of RNG that is moderate might be damage ranges. I can for an example do 250-260 damage. A random number between 250 and 260 is my damage. Although I can not expect an absolute number, from my range of numbers, I can interpolate what I can do and act on that knowledge. I personally appreciate that type of chaos.

One part of RNG that is extreme is blocking. A random number determines success or failure. What if, during the war of 1812, multiple alien spacecrafts flying over American forces zapped all soldiers to death allowing Canadians to conquer America? I know, random, but possible. I personally do not prefer analogies or exaggerations but some do. Anyhow, RNG that can change something very important such as a block that stopped Static Charge that prevented healing that increased total damage on the player that caused a fatality... is much to influencing... and without need to strategy as well. This is if not the most degrading RNG presence in EpicDuel of all. That is why I prefer to let a skill influence something less potently, so I said poison resistance. Maybe, poison resistance (not 100% resistance by the way) by itself is not as frequently game changing as is Reroute for example, so a side effect to a skill like that might be necessary. Maybe poison resistance and increased armour resistance on rage. Still, I do not, and never will, vote "block boosting" as a passive. It is too much of a strain.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 20:09:39)

Depressed Void I can understand what you are getting at as well. By doing this passive it would give them a more grantee effect of working like the other passives since Shadow arts is the only chance passive.

Also let's look at all the other passives.

Bloodlust works with every attack to gain back health and can be used on anyone
Reroute works everytime you take damage from anyone to give back energy
Deadly aim increase sidearm's power but the gun shot can be used on everyone
Mineral armor give passive physical defense against all class
Plasma armor give passive resistance against all class
Hybrid armor give both physical and energy resist against every class
Adrenaline increase rage for mercs. While somewhat broken it still works with all classes.

The point I am trying to make is that every single passive that is here work with the class against all classes. Also with shadow arts while it is up to change that the attack will be blocked you know that there is a larger chance of this skill having some use then poison resist since all classes have use melee's even classes that try to avoid then while only three use poison, and there in no grantee that this passive would ever have a use.

Heck if the staff were to put this into the game, Players might just stop using poison altogether, or if they have it powered up use it on any other class but Cyber hunters with this passive making it useless.

Next thing you know players will be complaining about this skill taking up space on the tier tree because it only works with the certain group of people, and that group of people isn't using poison any more. The point I am trying to make with this is that while you may not want to use melees so while it is a strain and up to chance there will always be that chance it will work and Shadow arts would always have it's use where as poison resist while has granteed resistance against poison won't always have a use or may not have a use at all if people bot cott poison moves.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 20:38:59)

You do make a good point, poison resistance affects 3 skills out of 72 and may influence players to avoid poison. This may cause players to drop using it, and taken further, the passive is ineffective.

For myself, I have some difficulty thinking of an original passive skill because many topics having to do with health, energy, defences, damage are already covered and I do not prefer to go ahead and implement something classic or already used.

Thanks for the leverage on the feedback, I need to do some rethinking again.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 21:03:30)

Depressed void here is a passive that could be more useful. I got the idea for it from an old video game, however even with it added into the game it would be more usual then shadow arts.

Deflection shield

Send back X% of non melee damage back to the attacker.

lvl 1 2%
lvl 2 4%
lvl 3 6%
lvl 4 8%
lvl 5 10 %
lvl 6 12 %
lvl 7 14 %
lvl 8 16 %
lvl 9 18 %
lvl 10 20 %

With this passive any move that isn't melee based would be sent back to the attacker. It would work like the bio borg's special ability only for non melee attacks and this passive would be useful since no matter most classes can't avoid using non melee attacks and those who do might be going out of their way to avoid it. As for where I got the idea for this skill the original name of the skill was PSI shield which would reflect half of energy damage back at the attacker.

However since it isn't like the bio bog move which is a temperory thing but a passive that is always on had to nerf the percentage down. This would do wonders for hunters especially those who like to abuse caster builds and other moves. So tell me what do you think?



Super Fat Man -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 21:10:35)

I like the concept Mother1, just maybe a little lower of reflected damage otherwise brilliant.[:D]



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 21:11:24)

I don't like this
Feel's like someone would use this and bio borgs special, making them a deflective giant



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 21:24:10)

Imagining we add 10 skill points to the skill (a pretty standard choice), 20% (n/5) damage back on everything non-melee? So, Sidearms (semi-Strength [Strike can avoid this]), Auxiliary (Support), Robot (Technology-Focus), skills (Dexterity-Technology-Support). So, everything that is not Strength? I do not mean to be blunt or anything like that, but this could very well become overpowered damage-wise. Every enemy player not using Strength as a damage source takes n/5 damage dealt (n representing the damage that they deal). If the Cyber Hunter exploits this with 200 health for example and uses Thorns, is that instant-kill?

I like the idea, it is just that this is a very punishing counter to all players that are not Strength like the uncommon Support players and even less common Dexterity players such as myself. Field Medic could be used to further the passive's ability in EpicDuel, anything really to raise health, Strength users can still crunch a player with this skill easy (and due to the lack of Shadow Arts, involve less luck in their striking).



IvanXY -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 21:31:03)

@Blaze
Simple, just make it so it doesn't stack with each other. (Just like Blood Commander + Bloodlust)

You guys are not used to see me here, that's because my bad english and some other issues, but if you're talking about changing BH skill tree of course i'll participate 'cuz i am one. I do like this 'Deflection Shield' idea, but... Deflection Shield + Bloodlust. You deflect 'em damage and gain health. OP maybe?



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 21:33:24)

Thanks for the input. Depressed Void, Blaze, and, Super fat man.

It was just something I thought off. However after hearing that you are right it would be too useful especially with the bio borg and especially since the Azreal was nerf so it couldn't counter this comb as it would be OP.

However I still do like the special idea thought and maybe if not in a passive how about maybe in a new bot instead. Sure it may sound like it is ripping off the bio borg special only in reverse, however that didn't stop them from making the infernal android did it? Maybe I will suggest this idea in the suggestions section.

IvanXY then why not take your same concept and make the deflected damage not stack with bloodlust? Remember with the bio borgs special you don't gain health back from the damage you give when you are a bounty due to blood lust. The same thing could work with that as well.



IvanXY -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 22:03:28)

@Mother1

My apologies, i didn't express myself correctly. I meant deflecting damage with the Shield, and gaining health with Bloodlust. Im just sayin' Str BH could take advantage of this skill. Having low-mid defenses will make 'em reflect more damage, and having high strenght will make 'em gain more health. Im not sure if what i say makes sense.




Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/22/2012 22:17:21)

I get what you said high attack, and low defense like what the str BM used. I thought you were talking about the deflected damage giving bounty hunters health back originally.



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