RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 0:06:47)

quote:

lvl 1 2%
lvl 2 4%
lvl 3 6%
lvl 4 8%
lvl 5 10 %
lvl 6 12 %
lvl 7 14 %
lvl 8 16 %
lvl 9 18 %
lvl 10 20 %

Percentages too high. I'm thinking 10-14% at MAX to put it on par with SA.
I still think that all passives should be of the same strength; if all passives were about equal in power, then balance would be much better. Right now HP (BL)& EP (RR)regain are ruling; something needs to be done.
Support buff never came; any word on it, Rabble?
Rage needs some serious reworking; how does someone with 8-10 support rage 2 turns faster than me when I have 22-27 support and I'm not Tanking/healing/shielding?



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 2:35:50)

What I think the Devs need to work on for balance:

Mercenaries: Double Strike and Berzerker are both blockable, similar attacks. Take out one or the other and replace with a skill that allows some form of obtaining energy. Yes, hybrid armor is not enough.
Tech Mages: Bring down Plasma Bolt to make it at the same level where Fireball is, and add back a stat requirement, also increase cost.
Blood Mages: Buff Plasma Cannon's damage by 1 or 2 points to reinstate its similar level with Fireball and Plasma Bolt
Cyber Hunters: Replace EMP with another mana-draining device at Tier one and move it downward. Simple access to EP-draining move is just ridiculous. Also, scaling should be receiving a reduction.
Bounty Hunters: Nothing much. Just EMP
Tactical Mercenaries: nothing much. Reduce a small % of tankiness if possible, Frenzy shouldn't be raged.



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 8:52:36)



Before, it increase 1 damage for every 3 str so at 87 str they do 70 physical damage before Def
After, it increase 1 damage for every 4 str so at 87 str they do 62 physical damage before Def

That 8 less damage and that too much of a nerf.

Make it
Buff blood mage fireball from increase 1 damage for every 4 str to 3.5 strength

so at 87 str they do around 66 physical damage before Def


◦Plasma Cannon : Base damage reduced to 18-36 from 22-40, that only 4 damage less compare to fireball with 8 damage less.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 9:15:36)

Steven11113 BM still are up, but are easier to deal with. You went them buff a skill that needed a nerf? This nerf is a good thing since it got a lot of BM off of the str build and has them using different builds. Giving them back half of what was taken away would just undo this and cause people to go back to the str build.

Also Plasma cannon wasn't nerfed as hard because most BM didn't use it like they would fireball. But it was nerfed since it worked with bloodlust. Especially if as tech spamming build used this and crit with it the health gain would be greater then most moves a str BM could do unless they crit.



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 13:56:39)

@Mother1: what are your thoughts and opinions on my previous post regarding balance changes for all classes?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 14:49:35)

To switch Bounty Hunters Shadow Arts switch it with Toxic grenade reduction.

For the Cyber Hunter shadow arts switch it with Calogero bot attack reduction.

Two new different passives that does not affect block chance equation.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 14:52:19)

^ Can you please explain how Shadow Arts is so bad?

I need 9 Shadow Arts as a BH for Juggernaut.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 14:55:08)

Ok Kittycat since you asked me I will answer

For Merc what skill would you suggest? Rememeber if it is a passive then another passive would have to be removed since Mercs have Hybrid armor and Adrenaline. Giving them 3 passives would get them an edge over other classes.

For tech mage that has been said several times by trans myself and a couple of others so I have nothing to say on that one.

For Blood mage, even though no one asked for the nerf I am guessing the Staff saw the danger of it working well with blood lust so they nerfed it. I don't use Blood mages since I don't like the class like that however, from what I have seen from several Blood mages that use this they are still doing well even with the nerf.

For Cyber hunters Replacing the skill would put them in the same boat as blood mages since they will have no form of energy draining unless you have a better skill to replace it with. However moving it to a lower tier would be best since as it has been stated before that it is crazy that they have access to the best energy draining move in the game from the start while the others have to pay points to obtain their and other then bounty hunters their energy drain moves are blockable. Also make it so it doesn't improve with Tech. Even this they aren't tech spamming purposely the gear they have can overpower EMP. Heck the gear I wear makes my level one emp 31 while most have to go to level 3 or even 4 for that so by removing the improving with tech and putting it on a fix scale along with moving it to a lower tier would do good.

Bounty hunter Same as Cyber hunter lower the energy drain move to a lower tier and put emp on a fixed scale and you are good.

For Tech merc how would you suggest they remove a bit of the tankiness? Remember TLM is suppose to be a tank class. Also during the last update they were only nerfed because Cyber hunters received a nerf to their plasma armor otherwise they would never have been nerfed. As for frenzy not being raged as much as I would like to agree I can't remember other then ultimates and non offensive moves every other move can be raged. Doing this to them would put them at a disadvantage plus remember Frenzy can be blocked. It isn't like it is 100% damage like fireball or massacre. It would be like telling Cyber hunters they couldn't use static charge with rage or mages they can't use deadly aim with rage so I couldn't agree with that.

Now here is something else you may have missed. If we they are going to put a fix on EMP gernade and make it not improve with tech Atom smasher needs the same thing. Many people say it doesn't improve with anything however even though it isn't said it does improve with strength since it takes a percentage of your strength and converts it into energy drain. If EMP get's fixed Atom Smasher should get the same.

Hun did you even read my post when we went on about that? If that became a passive it wouldn't work with all classes like shadow arts does. Also people could choose not to use poison on the class making Poison resistance worthless. While you can avoid using poison since it is only 3 moves and three classes that use it, you can't avoid not using melee attacks so there will always be a chance for shadow arts to work.

Also with the bot reduction ability same thing. People can avoid using bots and make this passive worthless, because most people use their bots for their abilities not for offensive unless they are the gamma and Infernal Android but they can simply not use them. Shadow arts is always useful since you can't avoid melee's in a normal duel unless it is short.

Shadeinblue those two passives are ruling because they work with offensive attacks and no one is going to make their offense weak. Remember bloodlust works with damage don't to an opponent,and reroute works with damage done to you by your opponent. Plus these are used every turn unless you are healing buffing yourself or using an energy draining move other then assimilate so of course these would be more useful to players.

Deadly aim can only be used one every two turns since sidearms have a cool down of 2 turns.

Shadow arts only ups your chance to block with melee attacks so it would be fair to compare it to a skill that works with all attacks. Now if it work with deflections then it would be on par with reroute and bloodlust since it would work with all attacks but at the same time it would become OP

Adrenaline from what I read is still buggy and slightly broken plus only mercs have it.

Lastly with the passive armors these are only meant for protection and defense but guess what the masses use these as much as reroute and blood lust even though each of them were nerfed so you while it seems blood lust and reroute are leading the passive armors are being used just as much so they are in league with them.



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 15:32:41)

@Mother1: For Mercs I would suggest a defensive shield barrier that can minimize the effectiveness of any stat reduction skill, also Bunker Buster should receive a reduction in damage because it is nowhere on Par with Plasma Cannon. -1 Damage points would do.
Ch:
Non-fixed: I think EMP should have a reduction in terms of scaling. A 10% reduction in MP points and an extra technology point needed to raise the effectiveness should do.

Fixed: If fixed, EMP should go by Atom Smasher, except since it can be blocked. It should have the ability to be deflected or reflected by a small %. Yes, there is a risk but if you compare Assimilation and Atom, it all can be blocked.

BH: Agree'd.

Atom Smasher: The percentage can increase since its a fixed percentage. In order to make it at a fixed level and not affected by any stat, It should be improved by level at a scale of 2 EP points per level. (Level 1 at (Level/1.5 + 2) EP points.

Tact: I see the point, but I was thinking that Blood Shield should be costing more HP for the Energy Resistance via Blood Shield. +1 HP points would do.

Mages: Okay.




King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 15:35:07)

I agree on EMP. I can take a ridiculous 40 energy at Level 6 with my Jugg build (80 Tech). Maybe switch Stun and EMP on BH skill tree, because Stun is T2 for TlMs.



kingpowerlord -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 15:46:42)

Long time sonce I posted in this thread btw :)

@hunq king
You plan to give those 2 weak passives to the hunter classes just because you want to win more battles a blood mage, that would ony be effective against 3 classes, so in half of battles that "passive skill" wouldn't even be active, please don't think just about your own class... Also I don't see what it would do to NERF ch even more? Especially since it is the most Up class second to mercenaries.

Also the rank of best classes.

Varium:
Tactical mercenary
bounty hunter
Mercenary
Tech mage
Blood mage
Cyber hunter

Non varium:
Bounty hunter
Tech mage
Blood mage
Tactical mercenary
Cyber hunter
Mercenary



I have done some testing with all these classes and am pleased to be able to share my results, bounty hunters and tactical mercenaries are 2 of the most balanced classes so far, I know you may think I am crazy however I have had a 79% percent win rate out of 100 battles with a level 30 non varium bounty hunter, and a 81% win rate out of 100 battles with a level 30 non varium tactical mercenary. Hpowever though tlm battles tend to talk 5-15 minutes average.

Also non varium and varium my tech mage percentage has been somewhere around 90%, they do pretty well.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 16:48:19)

King Helios, Shadow Arts have thrown off blocking since introduced. Before shadow Arts was introduced the Hunter class was able to block more often because of high dex with multi-shot build. Just recently in 2vs2 a Hunter without shadow arts on with lower dex than me blocked every strike, blocked Atom smasher, and blocked maul.

For some reason it does affect the blocking equation I have noticed that since it was introduce and brought it up back then but the staff never looked into it but now they should and come up with a new skill for both classes. It has and does affect balance whether it is activated or not. Plus why does the Cyber Hunter need a skill that gives extra blocking chance when they have a passive that gives extra resistance.

kingpowerlord, you guys called for nerfing the Blood mage class into oblivion and you got what you wanted so now to balance things out we need to nerf the other classes into oblivion.

Everyone forget about trying to convince the staff of dealing with energy draining skills because if they have not dealt with it yet they will not deal with it. Look at the vast majority of classes the staffs play, either Cyber Hunter, tact merc or tech mage so do you think they would mess with the skills they rely upon? No.

You can assume why Plasma cannon was nerfed but your assumption are wrong and the staff will not tell us why because most likely they don't have a clue either, maybe it was to make the Blood mage have the most amount of weak skills.

The other option start the next phase scrap the new classes and start three new classes that does not share any skills with each other or the old classes, then each classes can be worked on individually without affecting any other class.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 16:56:15)

@Hun
They nerfed plasma cannon, and they nerfed the str abuse

Use a 5-focus, it's a good build

Stop complaining



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:21:00)

He is using Focus 5, Blaze. I met him few times although he always ran after my Malf (3 times!) and I'm Focus 5 TM.

quote:

kingpowerlord, you guys called for nerfing the Blood mage class into oblivion and you got what you wanted so now to balance things out we need to nerf the other classes into oblivion.

Or perhaps Focus 5 which you use also relies on a Bot not F5 button? If you cannot make a build, don't blame BMs that class is weak. Just like you say Mercs are idiots and fool Balance Tracker - STOP fooling the Tracker yourself then. Battle Strategy section will help you.
quote:

Everyone forget about trying to convince the staff of dealing with energy draining skills because if they have not dealt with it yet they will not deal with it. Look at the vast majority of classes the staffs play, either Cyber Hunter, tact merc or tech mage so do you think they would mess with the skills they rely upon? No.

Last time you've spoken, you said that Devs don't even play this game.. Can you make up your mind OR stop making things up?
quote:

You can assume why Plasma cannon was nerfed but your assumption are wrong and the staff will not tell us why because most likely they don't have a clue either, maybe it was to make the Blood mage have the most amount of weak skills.

So you pretty much call them.. stupid? Yet you want skill that is Reroute and Blood Lust combined in one.. <_< >_>



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:24:00)

Merc's need a huge nerf. Replace Beserker with EMP grenade and Bunker Buster with blood shield but make the sacraficed health do triple of what it usually does. Also get rid of hybrid armour. The reason I say this becasue I was in a battle and I got blocked by this Merc, he then crited me with bunker buster and then I shot him with my pistol and he delfected me and then crited agian withbeserker this class is OP.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:25:06)

Dragon...
That was one of the least thought through and least intelligent posts I've ever seen...



kingpowerlord -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:33:41)

quote:

Dragon...
That was one of the least thought through and least
intelligent posts I've ever seen...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic


Wise words.



merc+op= don't go together



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:36:24)

Oh yeah becasue that post is totally something to be taken serouisly. Anyways So whats the plan for TM give plasma bolt a stat requirement and make it increase by every 4 tech instead of 3. Is that it or is there more?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:48:16)

Dragon, wouldn't just higher EP cost (+4 more at all Levels so L10 = 33) and slower scaling like Fireball has be enough? Of course we can just slap requirement without nerf in damage but remember, that requirement will greatly affect lower Levels so it shouldn't really be needed. Whilst slower progression + higher EP cost would stop TMs dominating with Caster builds at lower Level as well. :)



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:50:55)

Thats fair but should we make it so plasma bolt increases every 4 tech instead of 3?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 17:52:15)

Ah yes, I did say slower progression so that's what I meant. :P Pretty much make it equal with Fireball which costs 33 EP and has Str/4 progression whilst PB currently has 29EP and Tech/3.



Digital X -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 18:29:51)

@Hun, you say the Blood Mage class was "nerfed into oblivion" i'm going to guess here you do just mean a specific build centered around a skill, say, Plasma Cannon right? I've been using a 5 Focus BM for a long time now and rarely do i struggle. My stats are mainly focused on dex/tech as they should be, with moderate str and supp to even things out and provide decent overall damage.



zippinbolts -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 18:50:24)

@Digi: Hi, long time no see.

I see serious issues with 5 focus TMs atm. They us pyro-fly and more often then not they hit my nuke or heal. Then they tank the oblivion out of me. Should the heal be disable proof?



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 18:56:36)

Focus bm Can Kill Focus TM Easily.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/23/2012 18:58:03)

Zippinbolts I would say no since the attack works at random. It isn't like they choose to take out your heal. Lord knows what would happen if they could choose what ability they could nerf. Before the nerf every Cyber hunter's static would be disabled and now it would be a caster mages plasma bolt.

But to be honest I see TM use the assault or rusted assault bot more then any other bot to repair debuff damage. Besides most caster TM are energy tanks more then anything.



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