Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (Full Version)

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Metallico -> Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/1/2012 18:30:27)

Yesterday i decided to go 1 vs 1 and then i faced a strenght bounty hunter with high energy:

Smoke, i reduce debuff with bot and then he strikes, i use intimidate (-30 str points) so he has 45 str 11-14 but his primary damage saves him so he does +45 damage on 34 defense with that low amount of str...

¿Is that fair?

Does it happen the same in the same way when someone for example a mage with supercharge max gets malfed? he will do like 35 damage max against a tank build

So str in itself is overpowered but massacre makes it a more useful stat...

so ¿what comes after massacre? YES THE RAGE

It should not be improved but the weapon damage in itself, only on the str, and also i suggest a slower rage for str abusers...

I fought a bm with 8-10 support and we got rage at the same time, when i have 52 support and lvl 7 adrenaline ¿ is that fair for you? i don´t think it is



The Astral Fury -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/1/2012 19:03:54)

I do feel that massacre is a tad OP espcially with those str builds and with blood lust can get ridiculos. Also it is relitively supieor to the other classes finishers.



zer00x -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/1/2012 22:36:29)

The rage part its true with blood mages, i mean as a mercenary with normal support (around 50-55) and max Adredaline they rage even faster than me! it isnt fair, that make me feel that adredaline its useless and the only good passive its the hybrid armor, that mean just 1 usefull passive and that let mercenaries even more underpowered because the other classes have more usefull passives like bloodlust, deadly aim, static charge, reroute. I hope in omega they give a better passive to mercenary



Metallico -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/1/2012 23:39:28)

Well is not really a new passive what mercenary needs, mercenary needs shield because all the other tank classes have a extra shield ch has def matrix, tlm has blood shield which is already useful for them, mercenary depends of an assault bot or they will get owned



theholyfighter -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 3:00:59)

For this whole thread I (only) support (greatly) on:
Slower the RAGE rate for STR ABUSERS!



Mother1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 13:16:41)

@ theholyfighter

They would need to rewrite the whole rage formula for that. Don't forget blocks, deflections and crits help them gain rage faster as well, so even if you get one of these it only give them rage faster with the exception of it happening on rage.

I have seen strength builds now rage on turn three because of this including strength BM and BH.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 13:47:18)

quote:

Smoke, i reduce debuff with bot and then he strikes, i use intimidate (-30 str points) so he has 45 str 11-14 but his primary damage saves him so he does +45 damage on 34 defense with that low amount of str...

depends on the massacre lvl. massacre is completely fine IMO as it requires a massive amount of energy (if u want good damage) and it has a 3 turn warm up and 3 turn cool down. most likely will only be used once in a match.

while it may seem OP, most BH are screwed if u take away their energy. (take enough for them not to use massacre or smoke) all they may have left to rely on is a cheapshot and their primary.

and according to what u were saying, without intimidate, his damage is 17-21
ill assume he has a lvl 35 primary, with ur 34 defense, he should only be doing strikes of about 18-22 on u.



Metallico -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 14:23:35)

@goldslayer1

I know they are screwed when someone emps them but if you had a high strenght massacre build ¿would not you carry some energy boosters with you? it is pure logical, also a lot of builds have +100 energy so a weak emp or atom won`t totally nerf them, you can see it in the destrurage`s cyber hunter video, massacre is the most overpowered finishing skill in the game because it is improved with also the weapon damage, supercharge and surgical strike are only improved by technology which can be easily nerfed by malfunction...

And they get fast rage which makes that builds even more overpowered



Mother1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 15:05:44)

@ Metallico

High strength builds rage quick because they are putting out damage and are going against high defenses. Also since they fixed the bug that awards rage for blocks, crits, and deflections it has only gotten worse since these builds rage on turn 3 more then a merc with 100+ support using max adrenaline.


@ Godslayer

I could have told you someone would have said that they would use counter measures for EMP/Atomsmash builds since they do that every time someone says we need to nerf massacre.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 16:09:45)

@metallico
if a str BH or str CH has +100 then its not ur average str build.
my str build for bh and CH doesn't go above 75 energy. anything above that is really just wasting energy points.
its even more odd for BH since they can regain them. my str ch ALWAY never goes above what it needs for malf and mass because its just wasting stats.

also, as for rage, rage was made to combat high tanking builds.
the way the rage rate works all varies on YOUR defense, and YOUR offense.

if the enemies' potential damage is (21-26 +35) 56, and he deals 20 damage on u, the damage he DIDN't do goes into his rage rate %. in this case, 36% is added to his rage bar.

the same goes for urs. basically the more defense u use, the faster u make them rage.
the more offense u have, the faster u should rage (because theres a higher proportion of damage, and so to speak rage % increase for damage u dont do)

in str BH/CH case, theres a massive amount of % being added to their rage bar because of how rage works.
the potential damage for a 100+ str (and about lvl 6) massacre is around 110-120 damage, but because of ur defense, when ur being attacked by massacre, ur negating 50-60 damage from their max potential, so this 50-60 damage turns into a 50%-60% increase on their rage meter.

@mother1
yeah but the thing is, most people who complain about massacre most likely dont use these strategies for any build that has a high lvl on their special ability.

when supercharge tech mage was a good build to use, i had match up problems vs tech mages (specially if they went first)
this forced me to start using a build with 15+ more energy so i can carry a good EMP vs super charge. if it wasn't for EMP i would have probably lost a ton more matches vs super charge tech mages.



arthropleura -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/2/2012 20:49:00)

This again? Anyhow, str massacre isnt even OP
The whole build even works with 80 support and 50 str so i dont really think its the str in this case, more like the skill itself :/



Drianx -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/3/2012 2:29:32)

And that's how you learn how Rage works. It's simple: the more you attack with any weapon or skill, the faster you rage. The more you are doing schemes - heal, buff yourself, raise shields, use robot non-attacking skills - the slower you rage.

And strength BH is not overpowered, I get beaten by those pesky Tech Mages, and am on par with Blood Mages. It's Mercenaries that are really bad right now. The more you will play, the more it will suck.



Metallico -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/3/2012 15:40:03)

Yeah i know how rage works, but strenght is overpowered because they do high damage with a normal strike and now they get a fast rage, it is not fair specially for support builds who try to defend themselves, that´s they reason why not much people uses support build.

Str bounty hunters are overpowered in my opinion, massacre is the strongest skill, so it really needs a nerf i suggest 120% or 110% MAX and reduce the rage speed for this kind of builds, massive damage in each strike



goldslayer1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 9:46:12)

@meta
its not that they have fast rage. its how rage works.
str builds are offense first builds.
therefor they dont waste time with shields or healing. if u do, then ur not getting rage.

they also rage faster because u have higher defense. the higher ur defense, the faster they will rage.

a 120% max imo is just overkill.
max requires like 45 support, and 59 energy.

and no, strength is not the reason why people dont use support builds. people no longer use support builds, because it was players who didn't understand the game, that were complaining about things like field medic and deflection.
so now field medic no longer works with support, and deflections was moved to tech.

ontop of that, they added items that reduce support, and a robot that puts more cool downs on ur gun and aux.
people dont use support because of strength, the dont use it because support sucks period. (and again, it doesn't suck because of str)



Ranloth -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 9:59:53)

Support build can work well even without Deflections or Heal, people should really try it and try to improve it before judging it. It's much harder than before but it's stilll playable. Heal will scale back so that'll be a bonus for Heal and Rabble had something else up his sleeve sometime back which may come along with Omega. What is it? No one knows just yet.

Besides nerf Str progression and there goes nerf to all Str builds that abuse it, simple as. <.< Then no need to nerf Massacre for sake of Str builds if it's NOT the skill which is the problem but the stat it uses.. >.>



goldslayer1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 10:03:22)

@trans
the progression has already been nerfed.
its much simpler to remove gun from being full strength.

this would nerf BMs primary source of damage, their gun.



Ranloth -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 10:06:27)

BM's only? So all other classes can suck out? If you nerf Str progression, +1 more NOT diminishing, you lower damage of ALL Strength abusers, including your beloved Gun which only BMs seem to abuse with DA yet you insist on turning it to useless for everyone. Smart idea.

"Much simpler", yeah right. So it benefits you? Think about other players, not yourself.

PS. Nerf Guns and there is still case of Str abusing, BHs are still the top with Str abuse, all other classes can still abuse Str. It's not all about the Gun, would've thought you'd realise as an older player, my bad.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 10:10:19)

@trans
yes gun, this affects all Strength builds, but it would affect BMs the most.
most str BH have their gun as their only source for energy damage.
any high defense builds (like delta knight on tlm) and it makes str bh hit a wall.

taking the gun from str would increase usage in other builds.

so how am i only thinking about myself? next time dont accuse someone else unless you have solid evidence.

ps. i would have expected someone like you (who post in balances alot) to know that str builds isn't the only problem (or the main problem) here.

how about wait for omega before suggesting something like this?



Ranloth -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 10:34:08)

I suggested this, along with MANY other people, like few months back? That was before Omega was even planned or released to us, players.. :V This doesn't stop me from suggesting it, who says it'll be dealt with in Omega? I'd rather get their attention to the issue now rather than later. >.>

quote:

yes gun, this affects all Strength builds, but it would affect BMs the most.
most str BH have their gun as their only source for energy damage.

So you plan on nerfing Gun right.. And they have Massacre that's still as powerful. How to deal with it now? Nerf it so it affects other builds that rely on it? How about you deal with the Gun AND Massacre (or Str abuse as a whole) doing one thing which is much simpler than buff-nerfing individual stats and still having an issue here and there?

quote:

taking the gun from str would increase usage in other builds.

Str + Dex = bad, Str + Tech = bad -- power AND defence is too much. Str + Support is your idea? Give that to BMs and TMs and you see abuse thanks to Support builds since they also benefit from DA & TMs will put Malf on top of it. I did see your suggestion for it, that's why I don't agree. You WILL see 2 classes abusing it more than ever hence why giving some power to other stat is bad idea.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/4/2012 10:41:01)

@trans
u want to nerf str builds without actually nerfing them?
remove diminishing returns on defensive stats. this buffs many weak builds, while forcing str builds to have less damage.

and im not saying nerf the gun, im saying change the gun from str to str/support
the gun would still do damage, but its primary scale wont rely on strength as much now, and since str builds have low support, their gun will be much weaker.

quote:

Str + Dex = bad, Str + Tech = bad -- power AND defence is too much. Str + Support is your idea? Give that to BMs and TMs and you see abuse thanks to Support builds since they also benefit from DA & TMs will put Malf on top of it. I did see your suggestion for it, that's why I don't agree. You WILL see 2 classes abusing it more than ever hence why giving some power to other stat is bad idea.


so its no because 2 classes have a passive? u say it will make support builds OP, but they are currently weak.

secondly, theres a robot that makes gun and auxs cooldown. thats a huge drawback for support builds (specially for the mages)
and theres items that reduce ur support. if anything, gun being half support half strength does the job well in terms of decreasing damage for str and increasing it for support.

either way, we should wait for what the staff have planned before jumping to conclusion and suggest something that affects the entire game.



Gull.. -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/5/2012 16:56:49)

Actually i can live with bounty/ch hunters build with high strenght + massacre build and fast rage. I play tect merc, and that find with me there if a class that give awful lot of damage.

But what that paint me, and what i think makes hunters little overpowered, is blodlust can give 25% healt back, and shadow arts 10% block changes. A hunter with high dex and shadow art, have to much deffence combined with a high damage thy do.

Is that correct, high dex gives 35% block changes plus 10% ekstra bloke = Hunter can make 45% changes to block ??. I hope i have misunderstand something :)...







Vegafire -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/5/2012 17:06:36)

But then again you have a Sidearm, Aux and Robot special ( Infernal Android) which are unblockeable which render Shadow Arts Useless aswell as class specific skills, use these and hit them with Blockeable attacks with rage you will find it much more effective, my current build will destroy and build + class aslong as they dont get to many blocks or deflects apart from caster Mages Mainly syfy thats down to my luck in battle, i can beat her and the other casters aslong as i hit with every attack and they do not crit me.

No class is overpowered as long as you know how to comeback there builds with your own, Yes maybe there are to many BH's and alot of them are overpowered due to Varium and enhancements, But this will be deminished in OMEGA

With Rage if it is 35% + 10% they only have a 27.5% (roughly) chance of blocking which seems a little high i think the maximum block rate is 25-30% + 10% meaning with rage they have a maximum chance of 17.5-20% chance to block (roughly).




Metallico -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/6/2012 12:08:43)

Massacre is overpowered guys, a maxed out surgical with same requirements will never do the same damage when it is malfed, massacre is improved by the weapons damage which makes it overpowered in my opinion it should not work of that way, is not balanced for the other builds and classes...

Massive damage in each strike + faster rage than a merc with high support and high lvl adrenaline? it looks mad for me because rage is suposed to work with support not with just strikes against a armored target...

Gamma was more balanced in the skills and stats part, because each class used to have it`s overpowered builds so it was balanced independently of var or non var...

Support had high heals and deflections
Technology strong bots
Dexterity blocks
strenght good damage but slow rage




Ranloth -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/6/2012 12:22:08)

quote:

a maxed out surgical with same requirements will never do the same damage when it is malfed

To counter that: Maxed out Massacre will never return damage as HP* and drain rage.

* BloodLust is NOT an excuse here, CHs don't have it + it's a passive whilst SS' effect is with the skill.



Metallico -> RE: Strenght massacre bounty hunter/ch build is Overpowered (12/9/2012 2:40:11)

yeah, slower rage for str builds would help a lot..

+70 str = 10% slower rage
+80str = 15% slower rage

each 10 str points are equal to -5% rage gain with a 45% limit, that`s my suggestion people..

I also support your idea trans, they get a lot of hp with a massacre (which already does a massive damage with a low str improvement)

Is a overused build



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