Reducing boosters in jugg (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 19:35:36)

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that boosters are definitely an overpowered substance in juggernaut. If you're a tank, no matter what class you are, using a +25 HP booster can EASILY grant you another 2-3 attacks/turns to stall against the opponent. Even though the opponents can carry double your amount of boosters, it's still easily in reach to deal 25+ damage per turn, plus stalling with boosters makes infernal android literally unstoppable in jugg focus builds. Therefore I'm proposing that boosters which can be used in jugg for the juggernaut should be reduced down to 1 instead. That way it'd actually be pretty fair and balanced when players in the middle of the level range (27-28) fighting against a jugg have a decent chance. Even 2 level 30 full vars can still have a tough time taking down a tanky focus jugg when the jugg uses 2 boosters.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 19:37:40)

no.

boosters are a tactical advantage that players can use. every player can use them.
the lower lvls facing the juggernauts can use them too. in fact they can use the same type of boosters since the 25 hp/ep boosters are lvl 9.



Mother1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 19:56:31)

quote:

I'm afraid I'm going to lock this up right away, since it will lead to flaming, and the topic has came up before and it will receive the same answer. Boosters are an option within the game because they add to the strategy, whether you like it or not. They are very cheap, so everyone who wants them can buy them, and they allow you to battle in a much more diverse way. As has been stated, they can change the tide of the battle if used correctly. The things is, if you feel boosters are so helpful, then why do you not purchase some yourself? This whole 'booster noobs' and 'boosters should not exist' is basically saying 'I have a flaw in my build where anyone who uses a booster can beat me, so I'm going to just say they ruin the game and people who use them are noobs', when really they are just using the universal resources that the game gives.

All in all, if you do not want to use them, then do not, however, do not complain when others use them against you. Everyone has equal opportunity to get them, and form builds that work with them.


This was quoted from lycus in the Booster abuse thread. I would have to agree with him on this one big time.

Everyone can use them. It is just that jugs tend to use them since they need them more then the average player.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 20:49:20)

I'd trace it all down to outrageous jugg records of 95%-99%, which aren''t too hard to find, just off of boosters. Even if the player is full varium, I can agree that common 95%+ records are ridiculous, especially when all you have to do is get varium, get some good weapons, get boosters, and get a super tanky TLM focus build. I'm not saying to remove them completely, just reduce the amount permitted in a jugg fight. Try and consider yourself from a level 27 or 28's view in a jugg fight, whether or not they're varium. Without debuffs, pretty much all their attacks that aren't maxed out skills will do 3 damage. Increment this in with rage, they still barely do anything. Heals on juggs + 2 boosters which can heal 50 total health is definitely overkill, especially with turn stalling and infernal android. In this case, pretty much NO ONE stands a chance, unless you're a max enhanced full var level 30 player with a strong ally fighting against the jugg. Even if both opponents use a total of 4 boosters against the jugg, turn stalling is impossible if you're too low level to get a strong focus build, using a single rage plasma will probably only take 35-ish HP, and even massacre will most likely do 20 damage, unless there's a debuff, at which it'll typically do 30. Absolutely ridiculous. Is there no other person who agrees with this?

@mother1: I disagree that they "need them more." I'm a level 35 full var normal merc, and I've only done 50 or so jugg fights as TLM. I don't think I've ever used a single booster in jugg, and as it stands right now my win record is 80%. That's pretty substantial, and could easily be brought up to 90% with a single booster use per fight that I lost. Think about how high it could go if I had 2 boosters used per fight. Also, looking at the leaderboard, I often find jugg daily records at 120-ish wins and 100% win rate. I find this totally unacceptable, as it's obvious that since this happens almost every day on the leaderboard, it's more than just something related to extreme luck. That 100% win record isn't a fluke. It's a great example of the unstoppable power of a 2-booster equipped super tank jugg. How is this even fair to 2v2 players within the jugg-fighting level range?



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 20:50:39)

@exploding
i am considering it.
ur saying the juggernaut should only have 1 booster to use, while his enemies can have 4.



Mother1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 21:13:53)

@ exploding penguin

Most of those player they go against I am willing to bet don't even use boosters. When i played jug fights before the level cap I barely ran into players who would use the things. Think about it. Do you think Jugs would have nearly as good of a record if every player fighting them always has and use boosters? I think now. It would be that much harder for the jug especially when players come with anti tank builds and are 2 fully powered varium players.

I have faced those and even two non varium anti jug builds and guess what? Those builds would win against me. By the time I took the first person out the other had rage and finished me off.

Plus most of those words where from lycus not mine so I doubt they will limit the amount of boosters jug players can use just because some people feel it isn't fair for a jug to have a high win rate.



Vegafire -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 21:17:56)

@ Exploding "I'm a level 35 full var normal merc" Exactly and what about Non varium players? they can still face two varium apponements and well lets look at it, in retrospect you fight 2 30-31's the chances are they are going to be wearing all level 35 gear for stat bonuses ect? Boosters are a must have, i can defeat almost every player i come across 1v1 and 2v2 aslong as my partner doesent afk, now i have i think a 75% win in Jugg with two boosters? And Yes i am a full varium 35, just because Merc and TLM are tanky other builds are not, why should we chance class just for jugger because some people want our only chance of winning a jugg battle taken away?



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 21:36:18)

I am now seeing the opinions of everyone...

@goldslayer: Of course. Super tanks such as focus TLMs take literally 3 damage per hit from most attacks. Boosters take 1 turn and heal 25 HP, plus TLM focus typically has level 5+ heal. Pair up the extra 50 health from 2 boosters with the level 5+ heal AND the fact that they have reroute, enabling them to heal 2-3 times. Plus, rage frenzy is also definitely a problem because of the low defenses of the enemies. It is easy to deal more damage than 25 in 1 turn, and infernal android, after heal looping with the above mentioned methods, will pretty much be dealing 60 damage on turn 10.

@mother1: Did you jug as a TM? Statistically speaking, tech mages are one of the lowest tier classes to jugg with, and they gain the least amount of benefits from their passives, which is a major factor in winning jugg fights. My jugg record definitely isn't good at all, only around 75-80%, and my opponents use boosters against me 50-60% of the time. I will agree that your fight also depends on the combination of the two opponents. Having a level 7 smoke strength BH and a max zerker max bunker merc can definitely be pretty hard to win in, even with two boosters, but in many cases combinations like these won't show up.

@vegafire: The fact about credit juggs is definitely true, that it'd be unfair... This is where we reach the real dilemma I've been hoping to find a good opportunity to address: Jugg should be entirely removed from ED unless Omega can bring some major balance changes to it. Thanks for addressing this topic about credit player juggs...it totally skipped my mind.



Mother1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 21:44:27)

@ exploding penguin

No I jugged a merc using my tank build. However many of the times I came across the smarter players who learned to adapt or fully powered varium players. as it stands right now I have 262 wins and 161 losts which is less then 50% ratio. most of my losses were from two mercs with bunker builds (since bunker is an anti jug move) 2 strength BM (Back then fireball still powered up with 3 unlike now) two cyber hunters (Emp :P) Or a bounty hunter and cyber hunter. Many of those were tough matches for me



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/5/2012 21:51:17)

@exploding
ur basin this idea simply off TLM tanks.
a build which is meant for SLOW battles at a higher efficiency.

thats not really much to go by.
its like saying u should nerf a build that gets 20 wins an hour, only because it can get 98%+ (yall know which one im talking about)

slowing the battle down (which is what tanks do) allows for more options in strategy, and in most cases, if ur build is meant to be played slow, then u have higher chance of winning.

slower battles = more chance of ur enemy making mistakes.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 0:49:20)

@mother1: I meant, were you the TM class when you jugged? Not what opponents you're jugging against.

@goldslayer: you both make viable points. However, I'm not basing this only off of TLM tanks. I just chose to use them as an example because:
1. they're the easiest class to jugg with, and most TLMs hold the outrageous record
2. Try jugging as a TM? Definitely not an easy task, even when tanking or using caster build. BH is also hard to jugg with, merc is a pretty decent jugg class, CH lacks firepower, and BM is only OK at jugging. That's another point I'm trying to make in why jugg should be removed as a battle mode. It's too varied in effectiveness based off of classes. Anyways, if you don't trust my judgement on how classes do in jugg, I've played every class 3+ times and I make a couple hundred builds per class before I change, so I make sure to test everything I can before I switch. Therefore I think my judgements are pretty accurate.

Also, there's a reason why jugg fights give 15 influence and 70 credits on base, as well as more EXP: It's because they're slow. Fights being slow has nothing to do with the balance of the mode. I've changed my viewpoint on things, anyhow. Juggs aren't unstoppable, it's just that players are caught in a transition from making "noob"-like builds to making higher-grade, more effective builds. In this transition, players typically lose many of their fights until they realize their old strategies and builds won't work, and start making actual builds. Jugg as a mode itself isn't overpowered, it just happens that most juggs are level 34/35, and the level range to fight these juggs happens to be right at that transition. This situational problem itself can't be fixed right now, so I'm asking that jugg be removed as a mode entirely, as it's unfair to the lower level players who are still learning.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 0:53:56)

@exploding
thats because classes are built have their strong points and weak points.
in beta mages were good at solo, while mercs were good at team.
and BHs were sort of in the middle.

TLM is good in juggernaut because of its tanking and ability to survive long rounds.
this however does not make it the easiest, the more rounds u have to fight, the more chances there are for u to make mistakes, but the same applies to the enemy.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 0:59:16)

@goldslayer: This is where I become extremely fixated on my opinion...
Classes should have their specialties (tanking, offensive capabilities, etc), but should NOT have strong/weak points in terms of battle modes. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd absolutely hate being limited in my 2v2 fights or 1v1 fights when playing as a certain class. Automatically wouldn't BM become most favorable because it's an extremely flexible class which works very well in both modes? I sense a problem right there.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 1:00:51)

@exploding
if u wanted all classes to be exactly balance in power at everything, then they would all have to be the same. otherwise balancing them will be a quarter inch from impossible.


quote:

Also, there's a reason why jugg fights give 15 influence and 70 credits on base, as well as more EXP: It's because they're slow. Fights being slow has nothing to do with the balance of the mode.


yes it does in fact, speed affects the balance.
str merc was one of the crappiest builds to play with back in the day. it had no type of overall balance or survival-ability and could easily be beat, but it was nerfed simply because it could do 60+ wins an hour (at a horrendous % in back then's standards none the less)

heal loop was nerfed simply because it was capable of 98%+ (noticed how i said capable?)
but the build was probably the slowest build ever. matches would average 20 rounds with heal loop.
and u were getting 25 wins an hour. did AE take this into consideration? no.



Metallico -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 11:58:16)

I agree with exploding penguin with this suggestion, 2 lvl 27`s will never take down a lvl 35 tlm tank healing loop build unless they have full enhanced items which you will rarely find in a player of that lvl, they will only do that if they have an outdated promo being lvl 29, like using azrael`s curse and it is very rare, varium users will always lvl up so a jugg will always face non varium users most of the times...

Imagine you are a lvl 29 with the best gear, that`s my alt`s case he has very good gear but is not good enough to beat a tank tlm with healing loop build, most of the non varium players are newbies playing so they will try to copy builds of youtube but they will rarely use atom smasher or emp grenade...

Also i have seen lvl 35`s still jugging lvl 32 players so that is not fair



Mother1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 12:32:08)

@ exploding

No I said I was a merc when I was jugging. Also as I asked before did you ever think about f2p jugs? even with all that the staff is doing to make it more fair for them there still is a gap and limiting them to one booster just because pay to play jugs can tank extremely well isn't fair to them in the least.

Also when omega comes I am willing to bet it will be even worse for jugs since stat limits will be gone and this will cause OP builds to become even more OP.



STRUT MY MUTT -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 14:42:37)

Wow Penguin, how many of these anti-booster threads are you going to make? We get it, you dont like boosters.

I have to agree with Mother, when I'm jugging I often lose when the enemies are carrying and using their boosters, but they hardly ever use them.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 18:39:53)

@STRUTT: It's not just that I dislike boosters. This is actually a serious topic, as I think they complicate balance in jugg. In truth, I don't mind using boosters in 2v2 as long as the opponent uses them first, but that's not really relevant. Anyways, I gave up on my point of reducing boosters, and my new goal that I'm trying to reach is to remove or totally rework the entire juggernaut system, as from my previous posts I've proven/explained that as of now it doesn't function quite poorly for credit juggs/the team of 2 fighting against the jugg.

@goldslayer: Totally opinion on whether or not someone thinks speed affects balance. In my opinion, it doesn't, especially since jugg gives higher rewards than 1v1 does.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 20:21:28)

@exploding
its not opinion, its a fact.

str merc was nerfed because it could get quick wins. not because it got a horrendous 80% in battle (NPCs included)

and juggernaut gives higher rewards because i suggested that juggernaut and team modes give MORE rewards per match, because team and jugger matches are longer than solo matches

speed affects battle, since team and jugger are roughly 3 times slower than solo, they give about 3 times the rewards in terms of influence.

speed is important whether u think it is or not.

what would u rather do? 25 wins an hour at 98%+ or would u like 50+ wins an hour at 90%?



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 20:40:54)

@goldslayer: I actually think it is an opinion. I have a choice of "25 wins per hour at 98% or 90% 50 wins per hour" as you said. Totally opinion on whoever thinks that options like that are based off of balance. Strength merc was never nerfed, as far as I know. Zerker may have got some damage reduces, but it's fairly minor once you reach the higher and more useful levels of zerker.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 20:57:41)

quote:

Strength merc was never nerfed, as far as I know. Zerker may have got some damage reduces, but it's fairly minor once you reach the higher and more useful levels of zerker.

it was nerfed.

although getting a horrible % (by back then's standards with full var) str merc was the reason they added diminishing returns to start. to make str weaker.

ontop of that they severely nerfed berzerker, and they took out the +15% damage when a player was stunned.

this killed str mercs in the end, as they reduced its total damage by about 10 (meaning 10 less damage PER round) and berzerker at lvl 1 use to be about 85% or 90% (it was equal to massacre at lvl 1, except it was blockable)

this turned an 80% build at best into a 60%-65% with NPCs build, and less wins per hour than before.

quote:

the higher and more useful levels of zerker.

and back then there wasn't such thing as that, lvl 1 berserker and max berserker were about 5-10 damage apart at best.
the same went for massacre, massacre lvl 1 was about 10 damage apart from max mass.

this simply didn't make it worth while to lvl up such skills, because it cost massive energy at high lvls for little effect compared to its lower lvls.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/6/2012 22:10:26)

I know, I've been playing since beta. As far as I'm concerned, zerker actually deserved a nerf. It was literally a 4-5 damage difference from level 1 to max. I DO believe(but I'm not certain) that max zerker now and max zerker back then have about the same % damage return. Also, diminishing return on stats affected ALL classes, so I wouldn't call that a nerf, but rather a universal change. Stun also affected all classes, although it was easier to stun with mercs. Still, I'd call that a universal change as well, because the stun damage type of the other 2 classes and the debuffs could combine to actually have some stuns which dealt decent damage.



theholyfighter -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/7/2012 0:41:23)

Not supported. A tank might as well lose if he/she as 2 boosters as well, it actually depends on the power of your opponents.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/7/2012 1:39:12)

@exploding
it was a universal change yes, but it affect strength mercs the most because their builds required stats in excess of 130+ str.

no other build had as much stats as high as str merc's strength.

and while it may have been a universal change, the stun change affected str merc the most.
str merc stun damage relied on str, tech mage relied on dex and BH on tech.

either way, i believe the build (or class) didn't deserve a nerf, the only positive it had was speed.

but in terms of efficiency, it was far behind every other build.

support merc? 90%+
str BH? 90%-95%
support tech mage? 95%+

str merc? 80%

and im talking about full varium with the BEST gear with NPCs included.
does that nerf seem fair? to me, no.



Pallosalama -> RE: Reducing boosters in jugg (12/7/2012 10:16:47)

@theholyfighter Considering how most people in juggernaut victim range don't have varium or enchants its usually walk in the park for juggernaut.



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