RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (Full Version)

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ND Mallet -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 1:35:37)

@bj Whoops, mistook Surge for Energize. To be fair, either name could be seen as getting more charges for Energy. But the only cards that have been no charge usually had some cost to them(Discard, health loss) while Surge has no cost of any sort.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 1:57:30)

@Mega: Just because he hates permanent rares doesn't mean every single thing in the game has to be recurring. I strongly believe he meant that statement towards characters and not cards. I do believe he will make it in his power to not leave out any of the cards out of CC when it is possible, however.

@BJEBLE: Right now though, cards like Neutralize and Freeze have no place in a non-regulated CC. Once CC is fully complete and if we get to see some proper restrictions on it that would drastically minimize the abusing effects of those type of cards, can we actually expect them.

Think about it logically. Surge DOES NOT fall in the category or Might and Empower. Empower is a Shadow type card and Shadows are considerably powerful as it is. Thus, Empower is a nice addition such that it does not require energy to use (considering how much energy Shadow types need to preserve anyway) but requires the cost of one card to use. That is a drawback. Then you have Might, which is of a Light type move. It requires 2 energy for the same effect. It does not require a single card as a cost to use. Light types are considerably powerful as it is and are also quite energy efficient barring Retribution which is a 12 which then drastically drops to a measly 5 as the next highest cost card. Most of the cards used by Light types are handy and since they are more energy efficient than Shadow types, they get an energy cost of 2. Sounds reasonable and is a drawback nonetheless. THEN, you have Surge. This is an Energy type card. Energy types are not powerful at all and don't even pale in comparison to Light and Shadow in terms of such regard. They specialize in damage boosting moves to hit harder. Storm is its only decent damaging move and it is the only DoT Energy types have to work with. They most certainly NEED a card like Empower/Might WITHOUT any drawbacks.

The fact is that Energy types can use a card like Surge without any balance issues. But, if other types that boast enough power on their own get a card like that, it just screws up the order of things. Surge will most definitely take the place of Empower and Might and render them useless to a point where Nulgath might as well remove those cards from the gameCC (forgot about the ones pre-installed in decks). 2 cards seeing absolute 100% no play in decks just because Surge got moved out of place, such a big change from something so small don't you think? xD Sorry, this was a bit long, but I hope this helped! To a simple and technical degree, Surge can fall into those 2 card's category, but if you really think about the setup and why things are the way they are, it just goes to show they are totally different and unique.

However, if Nulgath does decide to set up impeccable limitations/regulations/rules or whatever you like to call them for CC, then so many possibilities can be realized. Cards like Surge can be released. Remember, Sacrifice wasn't released in CC for a similar reason! [;)]



Hakunin -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 6:44:42)

@ValkyrieKnight

Removing an Iron Hide and replacing it with a mere defense-card (500 defense, no mistake) would have undermine Neutrals a lot.

Just imagine you gain 500 defense instead of the current 1000+.
Considering Neutral has very charge-expensive cards exclusively, what are even very costy to cast (cost more then 5 charges per card), limiting Iron Hide to 1 per deck is foolish, especially with all its weaknesses compared to eg. Freeze.

Iron Hide is a MUST for Neutrals, and currently those who have only 1 are way too weak to battle in PvP.

Well, with the insane DoT-cards running rampage, defense start to be negligable, as heavy DoT + 500 dmg decks just pwn everything.


Incinerate should be compared to the other elements' cards, and especially DECKS, as in themselves the cards mean nothing.
Removing, or nerfing Incinerate NOW, when Fire has absolutely no useful cards outside Incinerate, would be a hugh mistake.


@TheJop

Dual-elements don't exclusively spend a turn casting Neutralize, but they get 10 additional charges with it to their regular 5 AND still cast up to 3 cards in the very same turn!



necro rouge -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 8:29:40)

@hakunin
Arcane ranger has only one iron hide.

And incinerate is too strong because it does too much for zero energy. it would be fine with 4-5 damage or 1-2 energy cost. Poison and corruption are so very strong because they have 200% effect/energy rate. Incinerate makes any card it is used on be at least 200% effect/energy. (and that is if it's used on fireball, which it is not supposed to be used on in the first place.)



Hakunin -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 8:54:08)

@necro rogue
oh, but you definitely forgot something important:
- Incinerate requires a discard to do anything
- those with Poison, Corruption, Shatter can cast a lot of defense along them. Neutral has 200%+ effect/cost Iron Hide, Ice has 166% e/c (+ freeze), shadow has Empower + more defense then fire etc. compared to Fire's 125% e/c cards.


So as it was said you must compare the whole decks before starting to say things like that.


PS: Arcane Ranger is SG-only, and thus I don't know it.
Also: SOME exceptions can always appear to strengthen the rule!
Finally to add: as I stated defense even turned to be neglectible with all the super-powerful CC cards. You can have almost any deck if you have the strongest CC cards.



kise2 -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 17:57:17)

I think that if they make it where reflect damage and piercing damage can't go through it that it will be fair. That will help combat neutrals weakness towards VR and Counter Attack.



BJEBLE -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 21:05:07)

@Hakunin Nulgath said that spells were eventually going to be included, but I think that he realized if he did make it work for spells, Inferno could do 900 pierce for 4 charges.Anyways, Fireball should be like 7 charges for 1050 damage, and incinerate could cost 2.
EDIT: I do think that old Iron Hide was just a little bit OP, but 1000 damage for only two turns?The enemy can still shield, charge, and then really wreak havoc when it's over. I think it should be at least 1500 shields, which is right in the middle of old and new.



Fallen Crest -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 22:01:06)

You could always shield, heal, and charge until IronHide was over.
1000 Shield is enough to take a large chunk of damage from a player. It gives players the chance to overpower it, unlike the 2000 version which was near-impossible, while still providing defense from unblockables, 1000 shield on top of regular shields, and can be trololol-chained every turn.

Takes 8 charge to bypass it with pure attacks. Takes 5 charge to cast it. Thus, you get 3 charge advantage if they decide to bypass it.
If they don't, they'll most likely waste charge because they hit the charge cap anyways. Or put up shields/reflects/heal, but people did that even when IronHide was 2000.

If they put up a reflection, which is IronHide's weakness, then you gotta counter it with corruptions. Chain IronHide until you got enough defense to sustain yourself, then use corruption to do some serious damage to them while bypassing the reflection. Afterwards, continue IronHide trololol-spamming.

Also, unless you bypass it, it's 2000 defense over those turns. If you don't bypass it in the first place, the shield is refreshed next turn.
For example, say a 500 corruption gets through. But the enemy charges than attack. The 500 left on IronHide is refreshed to 1000 next turn, making that 500 damage from corruption worthless.

Overall; For a only 5 charge card, IronHide, even at 1000 per turn, has more than enough advantages. More will just cause a charge increase, resulting in people, yet again, looking at it as worthless.

On to the Incinerate discussion.
I like Incinerate as it is (No charge, for 6 damage), but it should have some restrictions, unlike empower and might.
Shouldn't be usable on special cards, like Fireball. Also, it shouldn't be used on unblockable cards. Should be regular cards only.
Another debateable restriction could be like energize, where only certain cards can be discarded. Special cards, or regular cards only maybe.
I've always viewed Fire as the most offensive, so I want them to keep that seemingly-overpowering aspect to them.
Defensive/Stalling/Healing characters can easily beat them using defense as an advantage. They lack defense in the first place.



BJEBLE -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/20/2013 23:26:19)

@FallenCrest, yes Iron Hide is very effective, but only because it lasts two turns, which really isn't very much, that means you would only get 10 charges. So, a Poison and a 500 attack, or a Fireball and 200 attack, Counter and Shield, all of these aren't that much, and if you have 20 charges, but you only use Iron Hide, then you would almost have wasted a turn because you could do so much more. So really, only if you had between 8-12 charges and and a full deck, only then would it be so amazing at doing what it does, other than that, it's a pretty normal card, and I think it should be raised to 1500 per turn.



GuardMouse -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/29/2013 20:51:00)

In my personal experience Fire Element is too Overpowered, I think a way to resolve that would make incinerate have a
charge cost of 2 while still needing to discard 1 card (combining Might & Empower) since it powers up your card by 600 Damage.



Desmodus -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/29/2013 23:09:21)

And of course fixing the bug that makes it work on fireball.



necro rouge -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (6/30/2013 14:50:45)

i just got an idea that's so crazy that it might just work.
I'll do some more testing before i post it here though.



99th Dracopyre -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/2/2013 22:59:29)

Can anyone teach me how to Dual Element?
I want to put some Normal 515 cards on my Minotaur for some added UMPH in farming.

~Draco



Fallen Crest -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/3/2013 9:17:11)

Dual elementing is pretty much inefficient for every character except storm knight. The reason people dual element is because of cards like: Energize, Neutralize, and Fresh Start.
They give us free charge without wasting 4+ turns charging for it.

Dual elementing with your Minotaur would make it weaker than it using one element, due to it not having any of the above cards listed. I would not recommend it.

The exception is Storm Knight. He has 2 Energizes, more than any other character. The guide to it is here:

quote:

I used 3 corruptions, and two 425 cards.

I start off by charging neutral to 14. By that time, the opponent should have 19 charge.
-14 charge is enough to use 3 corruptions back to back (After use and drawing 14-10+4+4=12-10+4+4=10-10+4=4-4(5 damage card)) if energize doesn't come up.
If I have energize first hand, it's used after that. If I have a corruption too, it's used. I choose corruption because it's powerful enough to inflict insane damage while finding energize. I choose the 425 attacks simply because energy characters lack attack cards, and energize works on any attack card, regardless of the element. Also, because surge costs nothing, it can be used on those without using any energy charge.

If the rare momment happens where you don't get ANY neutral or energizes...As long as you survive, You'll have a VERY high chance to draw 2+ corruptions at some point. By that time, you can use both as you'll have 20 charge. Resulting in a whopping 4000 damage, enough to cover those turns without either. This is from personal experience.




99th Dracopyre -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/3/2013 9:35:07)

Ahh dang, I don't have any Corruption Card.

So happy that my favorite character has a great combo of cards.

THANK YOU! I'll try to get some corruptions! :)

~Draco



necro rouge -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/3/2013 10:28:51)

@99th
the dual strategy can also be used on Bill assassin and Lei, seeing as they have the same deck as storm knight.
And i'm going to test the Arcane ranger thing now.



Jacke21777 -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/13/2013 18:24:18)

Does anyone have a good cc for aqueous? I consistently lose to evil jim/fire characters at least 3 levels lower than me for some reason. :( The whirl thing seems kinda redundant, as fire was op enough as it was. The increase of 2 points for incinerate doesn't affect it at all.



clintonian -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/13/2013 19:35:38)

@jacke 3 shield 1 heal spring and a powerflow from a player who always beat me with aqueous lol



Skurge -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (7/13/2013 23:20:21)

@Jacke21777:

Shields can easily be penetrated by Fire, so I'd go for a more healing based customization instead. Luckily, Fire cards require a lot of energys so you can heal between recharging turns
while slowly doing away with your opponent.



FlameStrike -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (8/7/2013 2:44:40)

Does anyone know how Counter Elements work? I face Shadow Types with Light etc but I can't see any difference at all. Do the counter elements even do anything?



megakyle777 -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (8/7/2013 2:49:39)

Above: They are not out yet.[;)]



BJEBLE -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (8/17/2013 3:07:43)

Anyone know good CC for Evil Jim? Right now I'm using 2 Fireballs, 2 500 attacks, and a Burn.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (8/17/2013 12:47:36)

^I use 2 Incinerate, 2 Fire Whirl, and a Neutral 525.



aliesterus -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (8/20/2013 16:25:07)

When cards like energize, neutralize, and fresh start comes out for CC, I think the most OP dual element could possibly shadow/lightning, mainly because the insane power-ups as well as DoT potential is pretty good. Shadow/neutral is pretty good and all, but offensive strategies aren't that versatile unless you have corruption involved, and even then that and Iron Hide are pretty much the only things going for that element, while Lightning has Super Charged, Charged, Storm, and Electric Arc(which is pretty much Poison except with a longer duration, less charge, and less damage over time).

However if charge regen cards are released for Shadow, Earth, Fire, Light, and Ice it would be really interesting to see the hybrids people can come up with. I shudder at the potential of Earth/Ice, that would be OP.



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Card Mechanics/Combos Discussion (8/20/2013 17:08:47)

I don't think they will be released, because they'll make characters very similar if not the same. I really dislike what card customization is doing to the game, it makes characters of the same element have nearly the same amount of potential.



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