Shadow Arts useless passive (Full Version)

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TurkishIncubus -> Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 9:40:31)

Its the most useless passive ever, if your oponent use unblockables its completely ignored and even if your opponent use blockable attack it only gives an extra 10% block chance at max which will not guaranty to block.

In omega there will be more active skills that are unblockable, like Chairmans Fury, Thorn Assault, Jack-o-Fire and this passive will be even more useless.

I dont wanna change class but this passive is horrible and other passives of other classes give them very high advantage compared to Shadow Arts.

Dont get me wrong im not complaining here. This is my idea about shadow arts, and when omega starts i will gonna change class to something that dont have this useless skill. I hope testers or developers can buff this skill soon so i can use the classes with shadow arts.



theholyfighter -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 9:50:31)

Maybe make it giving actual bonus stats? So if it doesn't let you block more, perhaps some defense/resistance is ok.

What I mean by bonus stats:
A % of your dex/tech that adds to your defense/resistance



King Helios -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 10:50:36)

I think it should lower the chance that you get blocked, as well.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 11:16:31)

I find it quite annoying paired with high dex CH (because of plasma armor) and smoke BH. It's useless when fighting against certain classes (particularly TM) but it can totally break and destroy builds like strength merc and strength CH. So really, I find the skill not to be underpowered or overpowered, but just unbalanced. It protects the user extremely well from certain build and class types, but it's pretty much useless against builds like support CH.



Remorse -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 11:57:53)

I completely agree turkish,


Stupid idea to begin with, IMO


Certainly needs a completely new makeover,

Something like passively reduces all physical damage by 10% (at max)

If it is only physical damage that is reduced then the name also makes more seance plus it would be less over powered.



Drianx -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 12:54:01)

- deadly aim is useless when you do not use the sidearm
- mineral armor is useless when you are attacked with energy weapons
So all classes posess passives that work only in some cases. Due to this fact, shadow arts is just fine in my opinion.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 13:39:13)

quote:

- mineral armor is useless when you are attacked with energy weapons


No need to explain deadly aim your example is just makes no sense. But i want to clarify why Mineral armor is more useful than Shadow arts. You said you can counter Mineral armor with using energy attacks(well its not completely right but lets say it is) and you can counter Shadow arts with unblockables. The problem is when your opponent use physical attack, Mineral armor you will give you 10 less dmg. But when your opponent use a blockable move, shadow arts you will give you +10% chance to block, if you cant block then you get nothing for 10 skill points (what a passive huh?)

And a player can block without Shadow Arts but cant get +10 defense randomly.



Mother1 -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 14:31:29)

@ turkishincubus

I would also like to add that Mineral arts is worthless during rage attacks since any passive armor shuts down during rage. However with Shadow arts while defenses are ignored you still have that 10% chance to block no matter what.



Drianx -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 14:57:55)

Turkish, you're taking things out of context. It's like saying a man who eats 10 apples does eat just as much as a man who eats 10 watermelons.

Shadow arts was meant to belong to BH class, which also has Smoke screen. Considering this combo, the BH has a significant blocking chance advantage. The maximum benefit is to block a Rage attack (Strike, Bludgeon, Robot, or Berzerker), which is basically an instant win.



rayniedays56 -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 15:35:47)

I somewhat agree with you Turkish.

However, I propose making SA also include a slight deflect chance.

Here is my idea: (I modeled it off of Hybrid Armor)


Shadow Arts:
Passively increase your block chance while also increasing your deflect chance.

Improves with: None
Stat Requirements: 24 Support step 2 (42 Support Max)
Level Required: 10

Level 1: 1% Block Increase
Level 2: 2% Block Increase; 1% Deflect Increase
Level 3: 3% Block Increase
Level 4: 4% Block Increase; 2% Deflect Increase
Level 5: 5% Block Increase
Level 6: 6% Block Increase; 3% Deflect Increase
Level 7: 7% Block Increase
Level 8: 8% Block Increase; 4% Deflect Increase
Level 9: 9% Block Increase
Level 10: 10% Block Increase; 5% Deflect Increase



Rayman -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 16:53:18)

^
Yes, I agree Shadow's arts need the 10% deflect chance back not 5%, or maybe something of what remorse suggested.
With all these new unblockable skills and most bots being deflectable, the block goes down, making Shadows arts even more Useless.



Mother1 -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 17:43:27)

@ remorse

Nice Idea but if it worked like that in a way it would be sort of a nerf. Say if a person has all energy attacks and weapons. They Shadow arts would be rendered useless since it would only work with Physical attacks. I think a better idea for it would be if it removed 10% of all melee attacks damage. If done this way even the unblockable melee attacks would lose 10% of their power even with rage.

@ rayman

5% is good enough to make it more useful but 10% is pushing it. You know as well as I do that the deflection rate is crazy enough as it is. Last thing we need is to OP this passive by giving it 10% deflection rate on top of whatever chance they have to deflect. We already have people complaining about SA making BH block too much, 10% would possibly make CH deflect too much.



Scyze -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 19:33:13)

What do you mean "useless"? I am getting blocked too much with people with lower Dexterity and it's pissing me off.

I guess its all on luck. I did think of "free class change" to post but I think it was unfair. Just improve your Dexterity and also have Shadow Arts on a high number. Low percentage is difficult to notice so a high amount will have a better chance to get noticed. Shadow Arts is doing fine right now. Even if I keep getting blocked, I understand this game completely on luck. Shadow Arts doesn't need to be changed as well. Why add "deflection increase"? There is no point. Tank Bounty Hunters are just too much to deal with right now. I mentioned "luck" and this will go away. Omega will be more stat-based so luck will be "rare" and if you have more Dexterity, you'll see the difference. I understand that ranged attacks will be common but in Omega, you can just improve your Technology.

Deflection increase is going to be unbearable with Technology builds. You can already see what can happen with a 5 Focus tank Technology Builds. Technology improves Smoke Screen and then you can use your Robot.



DeathGuard -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 19:44:28)

Useless? How many times I have been blocked when they have such low defences and they win because of that single block? More than 500 battles I have lost because of that skill, it is helpful for many players. Now you want to add a deflect chance? I bet that if you become a TM, you will ask that a +10 of DA isn't enough and that it should absorb 20% of the damage inflicted. Be serious, nobody has complained about that skill because it is balanced.

quote:

- deadly aim is useless when you do not use the sidearm
- mineral armor is useless when you are attacked with energy weapons
So all classes posess passives that work only in some cases. Due to this fact, shadow arts is just fine in my opinion.
I agree with Drianx.



Remorse -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (12/31/2012 22:21:03)

HUH?

Deadly aim, and mineral aren't useless unless you cant grasp the obvious. ( no offense)



Are you serious you guys really think mineral is useless when you use an energy attack???
WOW !!


If you cant grasp the obvious Ill explain it, If you get mineral armour THEN you can then place your Armour bonus in resistance without having to first spam Dex to make defenses ruffly the same for most efficiency.

So basically mineral Armour is practically just adding to overall armour and therefore HELPS against energy attacks.


Deadly aim, is useless without a gun.....

If you dont have a gun then im pretty sure most WOULDN'T GET DEADLY AIM....
also if your builds didn't invest into having a decent gun then its not worth getting awell...


Shadow art is useless because despite investing points and doing everything you can to make it useful, eg. high dex, smoke reflex etc.

It can still be completely useless.

Where as if you wanted deadly aim to be used in a battle its pretty dam simple. GUN.

Where as shadow arts, the only person deciding whether or not it has a use in battle is the luck gods.




@ mother,

I did think of making it melee attacks first but then changed it to physical attacks to perhaps have more use.

You say that if they use energy attacks then it will also be useless well this is not true because the use is you can lower your defense to invest into other thing which may be resistance which means therefore energy attacks will be lowered by shadow arts if it blocked 10% of physical attacks.



RageSoul -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 0:24:56)

quote:

Its the most useless passive ever, if your oponent use unblockables its completely ignored and even if your opponent use blockable attack it only gives an extra 10% block chance at max which will not guaranty to block.

Yep , and that means it's 90 - 99% useless ( i reduced the percent based on SA's Block chance bonus based on level ) . But i have a solution to that :

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=20971410 <--see Shadow Arts part



Drianx -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 1:42:37)

Remorse, you used to make good points in the past, but now you are childishly backing up this fail logic.
You have just proven that mineral armor and deadly aim are useful in some particular cases. That is exactly my point about shadow arts as well. It does not help in absolutely all situations. It only provides a block and stun chance increase OBVIOUSLY IF you are charged with melee attacks or you are using stun grenade duh. And this makes it similar with the other passives I have mentioned.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 4:48:12)

@Drianx

For me you guys childishly backing up your fail logic. I dont know why Remorse waste his time trying to explain you guys at all.



Mother1 -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 6:23:39)

@ turkishincubus

So it is a worthless Passive because it works with two things of chance while the others don't? While I like some of the ideas for replacements, I wouldn't call shadow arts useless cause remember every passive has a weak point or fault to it.

Bloodlust is worthless if you get blocked (fault of bloodlust)
Reroute is worthless if the person using it blocks or your opponent doesn't attack you (Fault of this passive)
Mineral armor is worthless when rage applies or whenever someone uses an energy attack.
Plasma armor is worthless when rage applies or whenever someone uses a physical attack.
Hybrid armor is worthless when rage applies
Deadly aim is worthless without a sidearms
Adrenaline effect even at max is minaminal at best meaning without a support build with real high support you won't rage quickly without a crit, block, or deflection.

As I listed every passive has it's fault and none of them are perfect. Sure Shadow arts works with chance, and unblockable attacks bypass this one, however that doesn't make this passive worthless. Have you seen BH block a lot with this passive or even read the topics talking about BH blocking to much due to this passive? That right there is enough to prove that this passive while chance based isn't worthless. If it was all the topics would be talking about Shadow arts not working, not BH blocking too much due to shadow arts.



Remorse -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 9:34:53)

@ Drianx,

Im sorry if I come off as childish with my explaining, Il try a different angle.


I agree that passives dont work in all situations, and this does include mineral and deadly aim I agree.


However It is the players choice on weather these passives are useful or not in battle.


What I dont like about shadow arts and what can be viewed as useless is the fact its not in the players control to be useful in battle. And in fact can be TOO useful (blocks out of control) or completely useless.
Variable effects to me is unbalanced, it should be smack bang in the middle like most other passives.

And that's why I dislike the skill and think its needs a change.

Again sorry for explaining in a strong childish, criticizing way before, this is my view on the matter more gently.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 11:45:22)

Even if you are only attacked by mineral armor, it's not useless. There's a psychological block on the opponent using physical attacks on you if they have any (which in most cases they do), enabling you to invest high amounts of points into technology while still having equal defense and resistance.

Shadow arts at 10% block and deflection would overpower focus BH and their defensive capabilities. I think it'd actually be best if it was shadow arts 5% block chance, 5% deflection chance, and keep the stun chance at 10%, except reduce the energy cost of stun by 2 EP. The stun chance boost is totally neglected simply because it's by far the worst stun skill in the entire game, with horrible damage, scaling, and high energy cost. 10% is already a stretch of annoyance when mixed with higher dex and plasma armor and smoke, and is far too focused on blocking and nothing else.



Drianx -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 15:15:16)

@Remorse

Well that is a completely different reasoning, and I cannot argue with it since it is rather a matter of personal preference. My opinion is that SA is actually fine as it is now.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 15:21:24)

Here is the formula for block chance,
From Wiki
[Formula] Block Chance = 8% + (Defender's Dexterity - Attacker's Dexterity) / 2.5

,were in the formula includes Shadow Arts?

From ED handbook (This formula shown that the amount of DEX made a difference in blocking Chance)
[Formula] Block Chance = 5% + (Defender's Dexterity - Attacker's Dexterity) / 4

Shadow Arts creates new balance issues whether it is selected or not so it needs to be replaced. Let's forget the notion classes need to have two passives, if Titan does not say so it is not so, and at least replace the Cyber Hunter Shadow Arts with Claw Assault, http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=20969678 , and come up with a new skill for the Bounty Hunter Class to replace Shadow Arts.

Too added return the stat progression to what it was so it does not take that much points for dex and tech.

Mother1, passives are boring, skills that can be used to attack and that you can control is more fun.



Mother1 -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/1/2013 15:33:50)

@ hun

The person is talking about replacing shadow arts with another passive not replace with a move for one class and that move isn't a passive in the least. Also the move is OP since it would give CH 2 multi as well.



RageSoul -> RE: Shadow Arts useless passive (1/2/2013 3:54:50)

Lemme just put it in simple words :

SA isn't a "real" passive because 1) it's luck-based and 2) everyone can sometimes block at the same rate and 3) Block chance is universal to all because it's luck-based.



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