Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (Full Version)

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LatinLover/Martini -> Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 9:20:08)

Lately, I bet you can all agree, ALOT ALOT ALOT ALOT ALOT of people have been discussing the problems with juggernaut and how its unfair to them. Heres a disussion to talk about the problems you have with juggernaut and how you can fix them. Its an overall juggernaut discussion. What do you expect from juggernaut in omega. Also, what solutions do you have to others problems in juggernaut. How can juggernaut be improved. What do you want to see changed in juggernaut. Is it a major issue of level cap or is just your build. Overall discussion on Juggernaut. Focus in on ideas. Discuzz..



the final hour -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 9:35:13)

ive stated in another thread that to me right now as it stands on my juggernaut its as near as almsot impossible to kill me without luck or 2 rlly rlly smart 30s. its as simple of that (or if i epic boots me -_-)

I suspect in omega the shoe will be on the other foot it is the juggernaut will have a hard time winning i cant be sure of this till omega but im hedging my bets it will be hard for the juggers hard enuff ? im not sure.



King FrostLich -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 10:06:28)

Problem - 2 players who are level 30, 5 focus with infernal bot.
Solution - Make Infernal Bot permanently rare to stop it from getting nerfed.



the final hour -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 10:45:33)

@king frostlich

terrible idea . your suggesting something is OP so make it perma rare so just the people who have it are OP and others cant match the fire power naw if nything is to be done it eitha has to be nerfed or left how it is where vars and none vars alike have access to it



King FrostLich -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:17:03)

Just because I own the bot doesn't mean I will get rage faster, hit harder or even take complete advantage. Remember that if a Tact merc(such as me), cyber hunter, you only get one turn to attack so even with a passive skill, getting blocked or deflected. Plus, don't you even take a closer look? The only ones that can really destroy juggs are tech mages with this bot and have very high tech all the time not to mention tank mercs with bunker buster rage. If you are a tank jugg, it takes 3 hits for 1 player to rage so all in all, at exactly turn 4(which is by now the jugg heals knowing that 2 players will rage) is it enough to withstand 2 players using infernal bot rage? Maybe, maybe not and even if it takes a few rounds longer than turn 4 is that good? Nope, the bot gains more damage as time passes by. Sure Blood Mage and Tech Mage can pull off stronger hits but taking a look from the 2 players fighting you and if they are level 30 with the bot, will that be fair? I don't think so.



Stabilis -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:20:30)

On the contrary if you have IA you will hit harder (especially over time)! [:D][:D][:D]



Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:24:40)

^ Gamma bot is still the best bot in-game in my opinion.
I use IA myself since i dont have any other bot.

But i dont think IA is the problem in juggernaut battles.
Its more the Power gap between var and non var, and that gap is increased alot since those 26 too 30s can never get close to our stats.
So when Omega arrives, the juggs will lose a big advantage, stats not IA.



King FrostLich -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:29:06)

By the robot damage of Infernal Android in juggernaut, if 2 players are 5 focus and high tech, you're in big trouble unless you can kill them first.

quote:

So when Omega arrives, the juggs will lose a big advantage, stats not IA.


And health will be decreased to 1 hp to 1 point and since damage scales quicker than defenses, how will this explain IA being a disadvantage for a jugg when 2 players fighting him have it?



Mother1 -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:33:59)

@ king

Even though it is rare the pyro fly is a much bigger threat bot wise to Jugs then the infernal android. I have an alt with this bot, and when I use it on jugs it can cripple them if I get the right move.



ND Mallet -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:34:08)

@king First off, other way around. Defenses scale faster than damage. It takes 4 str/supp to the 3(sometimes 2 for tech) to get def/res. Secondly, making something perma rare does not fix the balance problem it poses, all you do is limit how many can use it. Third off, any perfect team up in Juggernaut will spell disaster in Juggernaut. It's not the item's fault that it can be teamed up with another player of the exact same caliber and used to defeat one higher level player. If you look, pretty much every time you get two of the same builds in a Juggernaut then you lose. Most times you don't lose unless that's the case.



Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:35:37)

^ Who says IA will be a disadvantage?

I never saw two 5 focus opponents in a jugg match, so i dont know why you say that.
A lvl 30 almost never has 5 focus, and if they do they have like 60 health so a easy kill.

Especially with Omega, a lvl 30 will never get 5 focus since they then dont have any health or energy.
So no, IA will not be a disadvantage for the juggs.
More a advantage in my opinion.



King FrostLich -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 11:51:15)

quote:

Defenses scale faster than damage.


The stat itself scales faster but the weapon damage(as of Delta) outpowers it.
quote:


It's not the item's fault that it can be teamed up with another player of the exact same caliber and used to defeat one higher level player. If you look, pretty much every time you get two of the same builds in a Juggernaut then you lose. Most times you don't lose unless that's the case.


Before this bot was even released, I used a 9 field medic build that had 100% win ratio with the rusted assault bot and at that time, it's debuffing % was 80% compared to today's 65% which barely helps against strong malfunction or smokescreen. Even 2 casters couldn't easily boost 4 times(not to be biased) because I can heal a maximum of 5 times provided I do not use any other skill that uses up my mana. When this bot came out, yes my ratio got cut down thanks to 72 damage after healing.

quote:

Especially with Omega, a lvl 30 will never get 5 focus since they then dont have any health or energy.
So no, IA will not be a disadvantage for the juggs.
More a advantage in my opinion.


If a Tech Mage makes all his base stats to 45(excluding mana), they can still have 16 extra stat points to place on health so it's simply:

44 + (16*2) = 76 hp 5 focus build.

While in Omega since health and mana will be increased by 10 points then:

54 + 16 = 70 hp

Often times, it's always with Caden's Wrath so if you think about the possible MINIMUM tech with just Caden's Wrath, it's 69 tech and adding up from the other equipment, it's possible to go 88+ tech which means if it's 5 focus, that's 26-30 + 30 IA damage to me.



Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 12:01:33)

@ King
If a tech mage wants 5 focus on lvl 30 this will be the stats:
74
56
45
45
45
45
Thats all they can get.
And with Cadens wraith there wont be much stats to put in str, dex and sup.
So i actually would be happy if they have cadens wraith.

It would be a 3 hit ko, and then there IA is useless.



King FrostLich -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 12:15:07)

Tech Mage Base Stats

Health: 44
Energy: 46
Strength: 18
Dexterity: 21
Technology: 24
Support: 17

By level 30, you get 116 stat points so you're saying...



Health: 74(15 stats)
Energy: 56(5 stats)
Strength: 45(27 stats)
Dexterity: 45(24 stats)
Technology: 45(21 stats)
Support: 45 (28 stats)

Total stats spent = 120 stats?

Plus Tech mages don't need much strength since deadly aim is what I often see with mages nowadays. It's typically this strategy; malf, plasma bolt, gun, rage infernal bot. Call me a bit greedy with power but I'm not and there are 2 people doing this so if not another one of these people will I see again then I'm pretty much sure they get substituted by bunker mercs which are by far more annoying yet weaker in the long run.



Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 12:24:21)

^ Wops, yes i thought 120.
but thats even better since there health goes down with 4.

TMs arent a problem in jugg battles in my opinion since they always have low dex and a shield that barely makes it up compared to the high tech.
Therefor i always 3-hit ko the TMs before the IA gets its power.
Thats why i dont see TMs as a problem.



Xendran -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 15:11:39)

quote:

^ Gamma bot is still the best bot in-game in my opinion.


Except that numbers are not an opinion based concept, so this statement is invalid...



Stabilis -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/11/2013 16:22:02)

I always wondered, if Juggernaut battles could be against fellow players of the same level.

How this would work, is that the Juggernaut (35) would fight 2 others (35 and 35) at double/triple/quadruple Health. Please bare in mind, that this is not equivocal to multiplied Strength, or Technology. The Juggernaut would have the same number of "basic" stats (Strength, Dexterity, etc...) as the 2 opponents, but is compensated by having as much, or more total Health between both sides. So, for example if a 35 Juggernaut at 90 * 2 Health battles 2 other 35s at 90 health, the difference between total Health on each side is 0. The disadvantage for the Juggernaut, is of course the lack of turns and variance in types of different skills.

I still press the question, why not kill the 2 birds with 1 stone (Juggernaut and 2V2 quitters), by adjusting the turn order in a 2V1 situation?

Like this:

Player 1 VS Player 2 and Player 3

1
2
1
3
1
2
1
3...

?



Dark Hyren -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/12/2013 9:04:46)

If juggs would battle players the same level with him , juggs would definitely lose .



Stabilis -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/12/2013 9:16:44)

^

Battling equal-level players with double health and double turns or quadruple/triple health and single turns.



f4tal1tY -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/12/2013 10:20:22)

Hm... @Depressed at the beginning, I thought that was a great idea!

My interpretation of your idea: Basically a 2v2, but there's 2 of yourself instead, so you have no partner.

HOWEVER:

Bear in mind, they can use their turns to heal each other. Most 35s who do 2v2 have 5 focus, high heals and debuffs! This would be extremely unfair to the Jugg, as when you get one down low, they would just double heal, which can get someone back to full HP. This is the case for 2v2s, so this arguement doesn't have much to back it up. BUT the problem that exists in your suggestion is the fact that many players now have this OP 5 focus IA build. 2 of these turn 5 Rage IA bots, and you'll be down by 80HP at LEAST. So in order to make your suggestion work, it would have to be more than double the hp for the jugg, maybe triple or even quadruple like you mentioned!

Now this is my suggestion to improving the Juggernaut battle mode: (Please give constructive criticism! [:)] )

Well the problem here in the Juggernaut battle mode seems to be 2 level 30 5 focus IA builds! So instead, I came up with a simple suggestion to improve this battle mode to be enjoyable! Since 5 focus builds need a certain level to have above 60hp (I think it is 27/28), the juggernaut battle maker would now pair a level 35 up against a level 29-32, and a level 26-29. This is to ensure that there won't be 2 5 focus IA used with rage against you! Since the 29-32 would most probably have a 5 focus build, and IF the 26-29 had a 5 focus, that would be unwise as he would get bursted! So...what do you guys think? If you guys think this is good, I'll move this to the ED Suggestions Forums :)

And again, constructive criticism please, support/disagree with this idea with a reasoning behind it!

Good day to you all!





King Helios -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/12/2013 10:23:00)

^ Level 32 and 29…in 1 battle…



f4tal1tY -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/12/2013 10:28:09)

Hm... I guess the levels do have to be adjusted slightly, but i was thinking more of this: Level 26/27 is paired with a Level 31/32, while the Level 28/29 is paired with a Level 29/30!

-F4tal1tY



CHELSEA ROX -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/13/2013 7:53:39)

They simply must adjust the levels. Make the level difference from lvl 24-lvl 30.




Steel Slayer -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/13/2013 12:30:22)

The level ranges for Juggernaut were already adjusted just this past summer to make Jugging easier. The result? More people jugging, so many that it is now almost impossible to level up past level 26 anymore. Try it. When you go through power hour and have only 1 or 2 fights that are NOT jugg battles, that isnt even close to fun. Especially when your partner doesnt have the gear to even make it a close fight. Making it any easier will just mean even more people jugging, making for even longer waits for jugg battles, and making leveling even more annoying. Thats a lose/lose. Jugg is fine as it is for now, after Omega, we'll see......



Angels Holocaust -> RE: Juggernaut: Problems vs Solutions (1/13/2013 13:29:50)

The entire mode is a disaster. They kept on raising the level for the opponents that you can fight, it's a nightmare to face 2 varium players and Omega will make it even harder for juggernaut to exist because everyone will have the same advantages.



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