Thoughts on Static Charge (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance



Message

theholyfighter -> Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 9:36:03)

Title Says It.
Currently I say that the way it works is underpowered, or limited to strength builds only. That way, it's kind of against one of the goals of the devs-variety of classes and builds. From what I think, Static can be buffed in three ways:
1. Increase the %, energy based on actual damage.
2. Decrease the %, energy based on raw damage.
3. Energy based on fixed number.
4. Become a Passive!



Stabilis -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 9:41:23)

Cyber Hunter has been ruined, I can only say that it should become passive.



theholyfighter -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 9:44:26)

Totally agree with you, and I added that in.



the final hour -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 10:08:05)

They may be underpowered now but idk ive seen some pretty effective none strengh CHes. and on another note 1 thing i know for a fact i dont want cyber hunters to go bk to how they were before the change.



Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 11:28:49)

Ok Static charge is in no shape or form weak. Just because you can't gain the same amount of energy every time from every build doesn't make it weak.

The fact that you could gain the same amount of energy no matter what build you can across since the effect ignored defenses while you could hit something as low as a 3 is the proof that the old static was overpowered. I remember the old days because static was so OP that 2 Cyber hunter tanks could go at it for 20-25 turns thanks to this move and the madness didn't stop until their static was blocked.

With the way static is now you need to think before you use it instead of spam it every time it pops up. Of course you won't gain back decent energy if you use it against builds with high defenses. Try using it with build with lower defenses and use malf as well if you have an energy primary to increase the energy gain. Use it with rage as well with malf if you can as well and unless luck happens and they block you can get 5-7 energy back or even more. The fact that the Static ignored defenses with the effect made the move complete brainless since unless your opponent blocked which I said is based off of luck there was no other counter. So in my opinion Static doesn't need to go back to raw damage because anything with raw damage doesn't have a counter to it.




Stabilis -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 11:46:49)

quote:

I remember the old days because static was so OP that 2 Cyber hunter tanks could go at it for 20-25 turns thanks to this move and the madness didn't stop until their static was blocked.


Your old days were different, at that time I was middle-aged and previous to your Cyber Hunters, the primal Cyber Hunters of my time lacked a Plasma Armor.

The Static Charge was the same in both periods however, so really the Cyber Hunters of my time were comparably weaker. They were not glass cannons, but they were glass. Technician and Defense Matrix substituted other means which meant that a Cyber Hunter was tactical, using their actions to defend. That is the perfect world in EpicDuel, battle status in EpicDuel being decided by the choices of the players not by their stats.

Of course, we lacked 2 passive skills, only having the lucky Shadow Arts. I agreed that 2 passive skills would be more balancing, I did not agree that Technician was weak, as many players whined about. Yes I did advocate Plasma Armor, I even suggested it (slapping myself), but sure as hell I advocated Energy Shield much more than an armor passive.

The needs for a Cyber Hunter (first period) were better defensive measures (mostly Energy-wise). I suppose development suggested that we kill 2 rats with 1 stone and substitute Plasma Armor to provide a better defense and a passive at once.

I still regret suggesting Plasma Armor instead of purely Energy Shield.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:03:44)

I honestly don't find it too underpowered, it could stand to be buffed by a few percent. I'd think CH would be really interesting if it was changed to a passive though, but otherwise static itself is (for the most part) fine.



Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:10:48)

@ depressed void

No matter how you look at it the move was vastly OP. While the class my not have been OP itself the move itself was, and if it wasn't overpowered answer me this? How is it fair that this move could ignore enemy defenses energy gain wise and give you back energy based on potential damage and the only way you could stop it is with a block which while you can stack the odds in your favor you can't control? You couldn't plan to stop this move because

1 it required no energy so energy drains are out
2 it ignored defenses so you can't weaken the effect
3 you could only stop it with a block which you can't control

So please once again tell me how is this MOVE not OP?



Remorse -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:15:31)

I say make it a passive!!


And if they have too many passives because of this then get rid of shadow arts and give them a new skill.

Something fitting of the name.



@ Mother1

I agree it was oped for some tank builds however it did allow more variety in the class then now.

What needs to happen is a change which does not make the tanks OP and does not limit variety.


Making static charge a passive would probably be the best way to do this.



Stabilis -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:21:02)

quote:

1 it required no energy so energy drains are out
2 it ignored defenses so you can't weaken the effect
3 you could only stop it with a block which you can't control

So please once again tell me how is this MOVE not OP?


Should we say Reroute is overpowered? The way you described the situation matches both.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:21:38)

It was most definitely OP back then (before plasma armor came, even more so than it was just before it had its last nerf)
I believe before plasma armor it was 78%, and it was based off of damage before defences influenced it. At that point I was CH with 17 strength, and e megalablades. This meant that I had 4-5+33 strike damage, and when I used max static I recovered a whopping 17 energy, or something near that. Afterwards it got nerfed to half or even less energy recovery, and they added plasma armor in.



Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:37:27)

@ depressed void

Now you are way off target. Static and reroute work different. static you attack your opponent to gain back energy, reroute your opponent attacks you. So the first difference is you take damage to gain back energy while with static you are giving it so there is the risk factor with reroute for starters.

second unlike it is now static as I said before ignored defenses while reroute's affect didn't. So you would gain energy back based on actual damage instead of potential damage like you did with the old static.

third reroute believe it or not is a double edged sword. If the situation is correct and you can afford it you can use reroute against the person but either using a move that doesn't do damage or strategically skip your turn. however with static the only counter was a block which as luck based and couldn't be controlled.

So while many people have brought up the this argument as an excuse to either nerf reroute or buff static back to what it was they forget the following differences

1 Reroute work when you get attack so it is limited to the amount of health you have while static you are dealing damage to gain back energy
2 Reroute can be countered with a move that doesn't do damage or by skipping if you can afford to
3 Reroute never ignored defenses with effect while static charge the old one did.




Remorse -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 12:52:06)

^ It doesn't really matter if the old static is oped or not.

It was oped in certain cases IMO.

However old is old, balance discussions are for the now, and currently the new static charge cripples CH variety.






Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 13:11:41)

@ remorse

How so because it doesn't ignore defenses? So a move needs to be OP and have no strategic counter for variety? Even reroute has counters in it that were strategic while static's counter was purely luck based.

Static as it is now isn't in any shape or form weak. It just isn't brainless as it was before since it no longer ignores enemy defenses. Of course you wouldn't get back decent energy with this attack if you use it on a player with high defenses. You have malf which can lower resistance combo static with malf if you have an energy primary. Use it with rage when you will be ignoring enemy defenses, or combo malf and static with rage and you will gain back decent energy. You don't need to have extreme strength to make this move useful you just have to know when to use or not to use it unlike before were whenever it popped up you could use it without thinking.




Cookielord12 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 13:19:01)

CHs needed a nerf, but not that much.



ND Mallet -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 14:44:24)

First thing's first. Every skill should not be usable by every build. If it can be, then something is wrong. For example, if a support BM can manage to get 60+ damage on Fireball with minimum strength then clearly Fireball is broken.

Secondly, no skill should ever be a required for a build. If you NEED this skill to win a battle then it needs changed. Yes, this even applies to passives and they are planned to be looked at eventually.



theholyfighter -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/27/2013 22:12:04)

@mother1
You're somehow talking off topic. I've never said that SC should go back to how it was. You've said that SC was a brainless move. So how's Reroute? That's brainless as well as you said.

@mallet
Partly true, but partly false. Have you seen a TM without Reroute? A Merc without Hybrid Armor? A BH without Bloodlust? A TLM without Reroute and Mineral Armor? A BM without Bloodlust and Deadly Aim? A CH without Static Charge(before the overnerfed nerf) and Plasma Armor?

For those who said it's not UP, are you using a str build? Do you have those 110 stats? Have you calculated the energy regen from CHs that's not using a Str build? Have you considered the situation in Omega? Are you here just because you hate CHs? Or afraid of losing some guaranteed wins from a class?



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 0:00:43)

Following up with something similar to what ND said, I don't think that passives should get more general priority in leveling up. This means that whenever someone makes a build, a large amount of their skill points go into passives, and a smaller amount into other skills. (BM, for example. Blood lust can in no way not benefit you from leveling it up, so I'd have to say at minimum level 6 blood lust is a must (Same applies to BH). In most cases, level 4+ reroute is also a must on TLM and TM, and a merc without hybrid armor is literally unusable. Overall, pretty much 99% of all builds use around half(or a little less) of their total skill points just on passives, which in most cases is only 2 skills, and neglects investment of variety in the other 10 skills of the class. I mean, pretty much no builds are functional if they have only skill points in active skills.



Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 1:13:32)

@ theholyfighter

Remember this is a forum were we can voice our opinions on any and all ideas. We have the right to agree and disagree. You did ask us our thoughts on your ideas and many people have been voicing them. Just because people disagree with you don't make us biased or out to destroy another class that is the first thing.

Also did you look at your second idea? It stats making static going back to raw damage which was how it worked originally. Even at a lower percentage static working with raw damage is OP for the simple fact that it ignores all enemy defenses when the energy gain comes in and unless you block (which as I stated is based on luck and you can't control) you would gain energy based off of your potential damage. As stated before there was no effective way of countering this move when it uses raw damage that you could plan because if by passed your defenses and doesn't cost any energy to use. Every other move in the game other then assimilation has a strategic counter to it that doesn't involve luck but static didn't.

Before the nerf static was spammed every time it came off of cool down and you know this. When the pyro fly came out cyber hunters complained about this bot because it could shut down their static and that the bot's effect needed to be changed because of this. That is what I meant when I said brainless there was no planning when to use it, just use it because it was there. Now that static has been taken off of it's pedestal can be countered you think it is ruined?

Instead of trying to spam it with tanks expecting to get energy why not use it against players with lower defenses? You have malf use it and then hit them with static it will award more energy, or better yet malf and use it with rage if you can. even players without high strength using it like this can get back 5-7 energy or even 10-11 if it crits when you use it, and in all honestly most of the complaints I see about static are because it isn't with raw damage which ignores defenses.

Most players I see using static think before they use it meaning they have adapted and use it when they know they can get energy back. not just willy Nilly as it was before (meaning every time it popped up use it with the only fear of a block)




theholyfighter -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 2:57:06)

quote:


Remember this is a forum were we can voice our opinions on any and all ideas. We have the right to agree and disagree. You did ask us our thoughts on your ideas and many people have been voicing them. Just because people disagree with you don't make us biased or out to destroy another class that is the first thing.


Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I'm making you guys biased...0_0 That's my opinion as well.


quote:


Also did you look at your second idea? It stats making static going back to raw damage which was how it worked originally. Even at a lower percentage static working with raw damage is OP for the simple fact that it ignores all enemy defenses when the energy gain comes in and unless you block (which as I stated is based on luck and you can't control) you would gain energy based off of your potential damage. As stated before there was no effective way of countering this move when it uses raw damage that you could plan because if by passed your defenses and doesn't cost any energy to use. Every other move in the game other then assimilation has a strategic counter to it that doesn't involve luck but static didn't.

Did you understand what I was trying to provide? I was trying to list the options available even with a tiny chance, and of course only one can be chosen. However, idk why you've only be focusing on that No.2 when everyone knows it's not a good choice already. It's making the whole thread sound like "Theholyfighter is wanting Static Charge to go back to its previous state, based on raw damage."




Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 3:19:28)

@ theholyfighter

You claimed that those who were saying static isn't UP and wouldn't agree to it needing to be changed was trying to destroy the class or hated the class since we don't agree on the change.

However people were coming at me saying that it wasn't OP but balanced before so I came back at them and provided reasons why I knew it was OP then one again the comparision to reroute came and as you said before it went off topic.

However for the sake of your other ideas I will provide what I think of them. For turning it into a passive, I have seen that quite a few times, however a passive would need to go. What everyone wants to go is plasma armor and fill the blank spot with technician, however the staff said Plasma armor is hear to stay so that shoots that idea down. Plus even if they took out shadow arts and replaced it with this passive they would need to fill the slot with another move and technician on top of plasma armor spell OP. It wouldn't be a good idea and would open up a new can of worms for imbalance.

As for choice number 3 this would make it almost the same as assimilation minus the energy drain and gaining half. My thoughts on this one could work if the number of energy gained isn't too high.

Finally number one increase the percent gained back from actual damage. This one seems fair enough as long as the percent doesn't go too high.



theholyfighter -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 3:55:08)

quote:


You claimed that those who were saying static isn't UP and wouldn't agree to it needing to be changed was trying to destroy the class or hated the class since we don't agree on the change.


I think you mean this:
quote:



For those who said it's not UP, are you using a str build? Do you have those 110 stats? Have you calculated the energy regen from CHs that's not using a Str build? Have you considered the situation in Omega? Are you here just because you hate CHs? Or afraid of losing some guaranteed wins from a class?

Of course they're not applying to everyone... They are just some of the reasons possible of why some of those are thinking Static is nice. I obviously didn't claim that " all those who said Static isn't UP needed to change or hated Cybers. If it's a problem with my English, I apologize, but if it's not, then please read it more carefully and don't put in self-perspectives when reading someone else's posts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:


However for the sake of your other ideas I will provide what I think of them. For turning it into a passive, I have seen that quite a few times, however a passive would need to go. What everyone wants to go is plasma armor and fill the blank spot with technician, however the staff said Plasma armor is hear to stay so that shoots that idea down. Plus even if they took out shadow arts and replaced it with this passive they would need to fill the slot with another move and technician on top of plasma armor spell OP. It wouldn't be a good idea and would open up a new can of worms for imbalance.

As for choice number 3 this would make it almost the same as assimilation minus the energy drain and gaining half. My thoughts on this one could work if the number of energy gained isn't too high.

Finally number one increase the percent gained back from actual damage. This one seems fair enough as long as the percent doesn't go too high.

This is what I think is more of a constructive comment and on-topic.

For the part of making it a Passive, I actually liked it more. And yes, the thing about 2 passives. Obviously with PA staying, Shadow Arts can go, and actually in my opinion I don't like it too much(doesn't mean I hate it) because it is overall 100% luck-based. What I'd like is it to be a "stats-buff" skill(Ex. Reflex Boost, Field/Blood Commander, Technician...), which all classes besides CHs have. At first I was thinking about a "support buff", but for now support isn't too usefull. These are obvious effects: Reflex-increases Def and skills. Technician- increases Resistance and skills. Field/Blood Commander-increases primary damage and effect of skills. However, a support-buff increases only aux damage(which you can only use once during the duration of the skill) and skills(which are shield, and they're already supporting skills).

Therefore, I need some ideas about the replacement of Shadow Arts. AKs, don't lock this for off-topic when you see this plse... The replacement for Shadow Arts is needed in order for Static Charge to be a Passive which is on-topic still.



Remorse -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 5:37:00)

@ Mother1,

It hurts variety because if you not a STR build the energy regain is so low its usually not worth wasting a turn to strike in the first place.


ALSO I never SAID ANYTHING about making an uncounterable skill, I merely said make it a diffrent energy regain style skill to allow for more builds then STR.

It makes no seance for a STR build to advanatge mostly from a tactical skill like an energy ragian, I understand how damage based skills can be advantaged mostly form STR but not something like a regain.

How about I come up with a few ideas for a replacement.

STATIC CHARGE:

Passively gives small amounts of energy to the defender and deals small amount of damage to the striker upon being struck ( triggered by all melee style attacks)

lvl1: 1 damage, 1 energy regain
lvl2: 2 damage, 2 energy regain
lvl3: 3 damage, 3 energy regain
lvl4: 4 damage, 4 energy regain
lvl5: 4 damage, 5 energy regain
lvl6: 5 damage, 6 energy regain
lvl7: 5 damage, 7 energy regain
lvl8: 6 damage, 7 energy regain
lvl9: 6 damage, 8 energy regain
Max: 7 damage, 8 energy regain


This skill only returns small amount of energy but it also allows them to have a damage style passive rewoerked in their.

Also it is completely counter-able even more so then reroute because to not give them energy you need to simply not use a melee attack.


This is just the first idea I came with,

Can come up with a few more if you guys dont like this idea.



theholyfighter -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 5:44:39)

Can you come up with more...
The only melee attacks I see is:
1. Strike (benefits with Str builds, 0 cooldown.)
2. perhaps....Robot attack?(improves with technology, but has 3~4 cooldown.)
others are:
cheapshot
massacre
venom strike(the first atk)

Therefore, I don't think that it working with melee would change the situation too much...



Mother1 -> RE: Thoughts on Static Charge (1/28/2013 5:56:56)

@ remorse

The idea sound creative but at the same time this passive won't do well in omega. It would be like getting hit with the bio borg everytime a person attacked and with limited health in omega this passive would be extremely OP since heath would be a whole lot less.

Plus those who have the bio borg would be able to abuse this passive big time to come 50% damage plus whatever the passive level of damage would be. It would be a nightmare.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition
0.125