Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (Full Version)

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Silver Sky Magician -> Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 6:41:59)

Everyone's hung up about strength builds, but no less significant is the rise of extreme support builds, particularly the support merc, TLM and TM. And they are very powerful. Anyone who has fought them can attest to that. Their obscenely high crit rate and the ability to have high support focus builds significantly augments their advantage.

Making Field Medic improve with Support would only make such builds nigh uncounterable, save by the same builds or by extreme Strength builds with the new Azrael's Will. Hence I seriously think that that would be a very bad idea. Does no one remember when support-spam builds ran omok in Gamma? Back then, a level 1 Field Medic by a support spammer could heal 50+ HP.



Remorse -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 7:02:24)

I disagree,

It wouldn't be un-counterable.


Skills like EMP work amazingly against them.


Also they are likely to make skill cores that reduce the effectiveness of healing.


Currently Curse on the delta weapons are not to be overlooked if heal is improved with support again.



Support mercs should always be counter able with EVERY single class since the gun skill core can drain energy which could take one of their heals or a multi.





I have never EVER met a support abuser to be OPED on ANY type of class I have played EXCEPT when you add the oped azreal skill cores which are the only reason ALONE they are oped.
Plus off topic those skill cores need to be dealt with ASAP.





If you add healing to support again, then all builds that focus on playing more defensively more will be benefited, where as those who like to attack ruthlessly will be braught down to a suitable level which doesn't harm variety.




Ranloth -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 7:06:58)

Actually, SSM, it's not Support which is outta hand but Support-based skills that are easily abuseable at the moment. Heal scaling again isn't a problem at all, and no one said it will be 1HP/4 Support like it was before, it can be slower, i.e. 1HP/6 Support.

And to counter them, we have currently Energy Shot for Guns (EP drain), core on Primaries that drains EP, each class has EP drain (but BMs but they can use cores), everyone can use Heal (even w/o passive EP regen; there's Generator; everyone can use it too). And Curse + Omega core can debuff Support (Omega a bit less reliable). Yes they are promo cores but more can be released in the future.



Drianx -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 7:25:10)

The thread is either a flame bait or plain stupid.
Even Rabblefroth admitted that Support needs a buff.
there are too many reasons for me to list here again.



theholyfighter -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 7:59:47)

It can improve with support, but add a limit to its CAP bonus health.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 8:32:42)

Hahahaha I remember watching old ED videos where players recovered like some 100+ hp?



Stabilis -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 9:35:19)

Assimilate, Blood Shield, Venom Strike, Toxic Grenade, Field Medic. These are all skills whose effect has never been directly exploited BECAUSE they do not improve by any stats. To me they are nearly perfectly balanced. Any contestants?



zippinbolts -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 10:37:45)

It needs to improve with something. It takes far too many points to get to heal for a decent amount. I vote for 1/8th scaling.



Goony -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 10:41:21)

@ Depressed Void. Just me, I couldn't just read that comment and move on... Who uses those perfectly balanced skills, part from Field Medic anyway?

On the subject that Field Medic should improve because support is weak, please explain that to a support tech mage. I think there are other ways to make support more useful, so creating another OP heal loop era is not really something I want to play in again. But that's my opinion, as some people thought it was really fun having the ability to have 350HP in one battle and have games last 20+ rounds!




zippinbolts -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 10:43:00)

@Goony: If there are more turns there is a higher possibility of the "luck" factor evening out for both sides. Just a thought.



Goony -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 10:50:45)

Shorter battles, less chances for luck too happen!

Most people only complain when when the other player has a luck factor that goes against the stat distribution, the list of people complaining about luck that favors them is very small... The game would be dead set boring without luck and if anyone thinks support or strength builds are bad now, just remove the luck factors and then see what happens.

Field Medic doesn't need to improve with support again, just my opinion!



Remorse -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 10:54:01)

I highly doubt the heal loop phase will come back.


Reason it worked back then is because, one it only had a 3 turn cool down.

And two energy drain skill cores weren't added back then.


But it would be nice if heal looping strategy worked against STR builds since they hardly ever waste turns to use enegy drains.

So if heal looping returns to destroy the annoying effortless builds then I say come back!





Ranloth -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 10:56:40)

I'd argue, Goony, that luck factor would be bumped down if Rage, Criticals, Blocks and Deflections were revised; rage gain and how support affects it, defence ignore on criticals and how support affects it, % for blocking and how Dex affects it (rate, difference, etc.), and % for deflections and how Tech affects it (rate, difference, etc.).

If these were revised and bumped down in terms of effectiveness (thus balanced, less luck factor), then luck wouldn't be as much of an issue since it'd go along more with the stat distribution. Passive cores (blocking/deflection) wouldn't be as much of an issue either since the advantage wouldn't be too big nor purely luck based.



Remorse -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 11:00:27)

I kinda agree with zippin bolts here.


Luck is fine and should occur a lot as long as its not too strong and rounds out to what each players deserves in longer fights.



People are always stressing about luck chances but it's luck power that needs to be changed, which can be indirectly lowered by once again further increasing the base HP.


If you complain about the chance of luck it's always a dead stalemate,
If you continue it with the current system anyway, because its still too power based in omega making luck's power too strong throwing games with just small amount of luck.

What it should be is a constant medium occurring amount of luck, however the power should be reduced be balancing the need for power in builds.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 11:12:51)

quote:

The thread is either a flame bait or plain stupid.
Even Rabblefroth admitted that Support needs a buff.
there are too many reasons for me to list here again.


It is neither a flame bait nor plain stupid. The fact of the matter is that support builds are very powerful, and just about all the respondents have come up with is 'you can use EP drain skills'. Which is fine and dandy, assuming you don't take into account the Generator core and the fact that two of the three main support abusers (TLM and TM) have reroute. EP drain loop isn't viable against such offensive builds.

And, as I have said, a level 1 Field Medic is sufficient. Unless you have obscenely high strength, the gun energy drain only takes out about 15 energy, which leaves the typical support merc enough EP to artillery strike and heal despite that. TLM and TM builds can also use the relevant skills (Artillery Strike/Malf + Heal), and they have reroute.

I'm not saying support builds are OPed now. They are undeniably very powerful, but they are far from invincible. What I'm worried about is that they will become OPed if Field Medic does increase with support. I'm not sure to what extent the staff will balance it, because their track record on balancing skills is horrible. Notice that the more balanced aspects of Omega centre around stats, not skills.

Heal loop may not come back, but it's not out of the question. My tank character can already heal loop. More pertinently, support builds need not heal loop for their heal to be crushing. 50+ HP easily means two to three turns more in the battle, which could allow them to rage, get their aux to finish cooling down, get more chances to crit, etc. I doubt heal loop was the problem with high support builds back in Gamma. It was more like one-time absurdly high heals.



Goony -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 11:14:37)

@ Remore, I don't understand what you're implying by "effortless builds" since you're a beta player you would understand that the whole concept of leaderboards, factions, world dominations and tokens (Flags and achievements) revolves around winning as quickly as possible... These builds have been around since the game began and most players understand that you need to make a choice on how you play... I had 30-40 battles today in both 1v1 and 2v2 and the range and diversity of builds I saw was impressive...

Suggesting that field medic have a support modifier so that they can heal higher while also saying that high support builds are OP and effortless is a contradiction.

@Trans, the thing is, unless you have some fantasic new calculation method that you have been hiding, it's almost impossible to lower luck chances. Most have 10% chance when statistics are even and that means that in a battle that has 10 turns for each player with identical builds the odds suggest that there will be 2 luck occurences in that battle.

People are suggesting factors like if someone blocks me I should have a higher chance to block them next turn and other ideas that will actually increase the luck factors. I don't know why people complain about luck so much... Or we could just bring back CometJack, so that he could complain every time his rage bezerker was blocked :P



Ranloth -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 11:18:33)

Oh no, I actually don't which is a shame.. :I What I meant that these 4 things (rage, crits, deflections and blocks) should be revised in terms of how stats affect them and how big % is for each (defence ignore, reducing damage, etc.). That's what I meant. Whilst odds would stay the same, these effects wouldn't have as big impact on the battle (where Crit takes off 1/2 of your HP; Str abuse + Crit + high defences = 40-50 HP gone anyway.. :P)



Goony -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 11:28:01)

I can see what you are saying, but let's look at it, deflects reduce damage by 50%, but guns, auxes and bots can't be used every turn and all have different power modifiers whilst you can strike every turn and blocks reduce damage by 100%... Balanced? Crits ignore 50% of defences not take 50% of health :p But, yes it could be lowered just to see the effect it would have and possibly look at the min damage of crits since the criticals often do a lot more damage versus playes with low defences. And rage build rate is also something that will be looked at!



Remorse -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 11:40:11)

@Goony,

My definition of effortless build is one that tries to kill fast without using a single defensive turn if possible,
Their defense is usually their offense, in other words.




Under this classification I would not put Support builds under it,

Rather it basically leaves only STR builds, since a lot of STR builds these days are chuck everything out and fast,

For example, double strike, azreal will, berserk.


Support builds can be fast killers yes, But they usually take time to place in defensive turns such as healing or shielding,
When facing another defensive style opponent.




If support improved heal again, Yes some Support builds may become very strong, But they wouldn't be classified effortless because it would involve healing and if it involves healing it can be countered.




When you put aside support builds for a minute and then picture all the in between styles, many of which like to use a heal but could be a mixture of power and defense, These builds are something that could do with a nice defense style buff, in the form of a stronger heal.



Playing defensively right now is the problem, when I say playing defensively I dont mean be a tank, that is not necessarily the definition of defense, I mean take turns off, or specifically choose weaker attacks consistently to gain an defensive advantage. (arguably the more strategic builds)

These builds right now are suffering and a great way to help them out would be to allow support to improve with field medic.



Goony -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 12:02:25)

Your point about effortless builds is what the game is all about, it's about winning as quickly as possible, so it's only natural more players will adopt builds that enable them to win quickly. If the game was a tournament style game then those builds wouldn't be as popular as they tend to be crash and bash for quick wins. Sure if a strength mercanary goes 1st and stuns and then uses maxed bezerker I'm probably going to struggle to win since I only have 100hp. Would a higher heal help, probably not as I'm on the back foot from the start. But, players seem to want a build that enables them to win 100% of the time. The way support is used to decide 1st turn chances and the calculation method works, although a little hard to explain. Perhaps the biggest factor support has, since going 1st is a massive advantage! The thing is if I go 1st, which is 70-80% of the time, I can usually give them a good run, but it doesn't always work ;)

I really think if the games became those long drawn out heal loop style games, while still having the same win as quickly as possible game goals then the gameplay would become very stale! As it did when the heal loop era prevailed!

Many more cores will come and every time a new core is introduced strategy and balance will move. The players who can make their own builds and devise strategies will in the long run be the happiest and play the game for a longer period of time!

I'm just happy the game strategy has evolved and it's not the same boring battle vs the most OP class at any particular stage... Already a lot of diversity and looking forward to a whole heap more in the next few months!



Lycan. -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 12:09:26)

I still can't believe that strength scales primary/secondary faster than support scales aux, they should have done something about this before Omega update.

EDIT: Support should scale faster, it's not like you can use aux every turn while you can strike every turn O.O



Goony -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 12:12:42)

^That statement is simply not true, support and strength scale damage identically! http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Stat_Progression



Remorse -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 12:17:32)

I personally like long drawn out battles,


So I can see why we have conflicting opinions.


It seems that almost all these cores out so far are catering for the aggressive style, Since some people like to play defensive like myself, it would be cool if they made a few of those.



Stabilis -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 12:19:45)

quote:

Who uses those perfectly balanced skills, part from Field Medic anyway?


The population that does not quarrel about being at a disadvantage against the population that uses the stat-improving skills; after all, the stat-improving skills provide incredulous damage. Ah, and important note: nearly perfectly balanced, not perfectly balanced. I do not believe in perfection, but if it does happen to occur, it will not endure forever. I would consider myself to be 1 of the very few who use weak skills at my discretion.



Drianx -> RE: Field Medic: Should it really improve with Support? (2/17/2013 13:07:16)

quote:

I think there are other ways to make support more useful, so creating another OP heal loop era is not really something I want to play in again.


Hey i couldn't read that and move on either.

In Beta a single nerf should have been applied and everything would have been fine: a nerf for Reroute. Not allowing Mages to regain that much energy to allow them a steady Field Medic flow.

But instead of that, Support and Field Medic have been altered to the extent of becoming too weak. Bad decisions.

And support tech mages ARE weak now. Not only tech mage, but anything support, because of low block and deflect chances. Especially since deflections have been moved to technology.



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