RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (Full Version)

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xGreen Warriorx -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 15:41:10)

@ Drianx
What I meant when I was talking about the lvl 30s was that there are other people in this game not on the lvl cap or close to it who dont have forum accounts, and so theyre not represented. I was speaking for them when I said they were being "tortured" by Azraels Will. A battle where a lvl 30 or 31 would otherwise have a good chance of winning if they played smart, they can't win because their lvl 34 or 35 opponent has Azraels Will.

For my 2nd point what I really was trying to say is that in the future, people who bought this promo (which costs the same as all the promos before it), will still have an unfair advantage, and will forever be able to win with a better % than any other lvl cap player without the promo. If this Azrael promo sets the new standard for core OPness (meaning future cores will be equal to it including non-var cores), then fine. In that case though, the Omega primary promo cores (esp. the passive) should probably get a buff.



RabbleFroth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 16:55:58)

quote:

Mainly because that that is a promotional item, and they dont want to nerf it, as people paid real money for this.

That is not a factor for making or not making changes to the game.



....SKY.... -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:25:53)

not supporting a nerf, Azraels are fine as it is. You can Yeti them or you can wait until next year to get them and No, I didnt get the promotional Azraels YET LOL. Wanna see the Omega guns, aux and armor and associated cores first before getting them.



Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:31:31)

Cores were designed to give you an advantage, not insta-win. There's a big difference. Also not everyone have Varium or Credits to get the Yeti + what if other Bot suits their build more (gives them better advantage)? Yes there are counters but these are exclusive (Seasonal/Varium/both) and - as I've already said - cores = advantage, not insta-win. I'm not overexaggerating but the combo is OP and makes it hard to counter.
I use Yeti, they can tank through it and use Aux/Gun whenever possible and still win. So Yeti isn't 100% counter either since it doesn't work as well as you think. Lastly, I shouldn't be forced to use certain type of equipment to win. Builds may have drawbacks but it's surprising that after one core is released, all builds seem to have drawbacks. Coincidence? I think not.



The Astral Fury -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:42:49)

You dont need the yeti to beat it, also its not like everyone has it so your not facing it once in a ahile youll see it. Also if you simply cant stand pvp and cant find a way to beat the promo without the yeti cause you cant afford it stop pvping at farm unlimited npcs until you get enough you wont any promo weapons there or op builds save up and buy the yeti and counter them simple as that.



LeProTurtle -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:43:07)

They cant nerf something hundreds of people bought with real money. Itd be a waste of 50$.

Plus, stuns are also a good chance, 30%. If you know how to actually counter the core, the gun is just a normal gun



Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:45:31)

quote:

They cant nerf something hundreds of people bought with real money. Itd be a waste of 50$.

I've done offers maybe, what then? But seriously, no. Rabble says otherwise so they CAN nerf it but overkilling it would be bad.

The Astral Fury, so seasonal items count? What about players who will miss the Yeti? If I want to counter something, it should be in-game for everyone rather than give exclusive advantage over a certain build because ____ is rare. Yeti is one way to somewhat counter it but those who missed it do what? It should be counterable in some way, not only restricted to rare equipment.



The Astral Fury -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:46:06)

Save up with npcing and buy the yeti. Even though you dont need it to counter it.



LeProTurtle -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 17:48:03)

I shoulda worded that better, but I mean like nerfing it so much it does nothing.

Adding on, just learn how to counter it for everyone who's complaining over it. It's justlike when Cybers and Blood Mages were nerfed. Cybers flipped out, as Blood Mages figured away around it.



The Astral Fury -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 19:42:29)

You make a good point trans I didnt realize that maybe make the yeti availiable a year round or would you suggest something else.

However even though the yeti is the best way counter them you can still do so without the yeti.


I understand your logic though.




Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 19:55:01)

Look at it this way, what's the actual problem: Is it the core itself OR the fact Support abuse + the core makes it truly deadly combo? If it's former, nerf the core. If it's latter then slow down the progression for Support past 80-90 stat points (diminishing returns) to lower damage and then see whether nerfing the core is required.

What I've suggested is making a save for the effect instead. (THESE ARE EXAMPLES) So you will not have 100% chance to apply the effect; since Gun has the effect, Strength wouldNOT be wise to use so let's pick Tech and Dex. The save would be in favour of the user so let's say you have base 50% chance to apply the effect and 1.25% per 2 Tech/Dex difference. Using example:

I have 85 Dex and 66 Tech, my enemy has 46 Dex and 58 Tech. Dex difference is 39 and Tech difference is 8, for total of 47. Now we have to divide it by two which makes it 23.5, and next we have to multiply it by 1.25 which makes it.. 29.375 (rounds up to 30). Therefore chance to apply Azrael's Will will be 80%. BUT if you're at a disadvantage - so your enemy has higher Tech and Dex - the rate will fall down to that of 50% which would be the base.

Why Tech and Dex? Gun improves with Strength so only way to counter it is Strength/Support (abuse) or invest in defence. That's why we're using defensive skills so you don't abuse Strength and get most outta Will. Another way which would be much simpler is damage penalty when Will is applied, so perhaps 50-75% damage dealt and forced to Strike like you are now. Personally, I'd be in favour of the saves system since it could spice up the game play and prevent abuse of the Azrael's Will.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 20:05:36)

@Trans
I believe it's the former
Forcing someone to waste their turn is just bad
Limiting someones selections, meaning cores that make damaging skills un-usable (except strike), or makes not damaging skills un-usable would be okay
Limit a turn, don't remove it



Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 20:10:35)

What if the core would force you to Strike but it'd be unblockable & for 75% damage? So you still deal damage but less, and unblockable obviously. So, in other words, your opponent would ideally have 25% damage advantage after using the core (using 75% as an example). It'd be bad idea to spam this core on Strength builds because the result of it would be at your disadvantage but it'd be good for balanced builds, or if you're a tank, or if they aren't relying on Strike (low Strength).



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 20:47:38)

^ Let me completely understand this before I add it to the first post.
You use Azrael's Will, and your sidearm does 75% dmg. Your opponents strike is unblockable.

@Aion Ender
That gave me an idea. What about Azrael's Will knocking out all damage-related skills, and your most powerful weapon? Ex: You use Will against a supp merc. The merc can't artillery strike, double strike, intimidate, or use any skills on that turn that do damage. The supp merc cant aux, because its their most powerful weapon. What they can still do is strike, sidearm, bot, heal, and blood commander.



Trae -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 21:01:50)

i own the weapons and if it does get nerfed though it hopefully wont i would suggest it does 95% damage and the opponent would have the choice to heal buff or do a strike for 110% damage



Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 21:36:54)

Sidearm deals 100% just so there's an advantage in using the core. So if you're forced to Strike then you do but for 75% damage and unblockable. Person using the Sidearm deals full damage. Still retains its effect but abusing it at wrong time or against wrong player could prove deadly. And is still useful yet more balanced.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/25/2013 23:39:30)

That feels like almost a nerf
As it was before, people connected more than they were blocked
So making the more prominent part of this core weaker, the strike itself, would a buff in my eyes

I would say either do what I suggested, or:
Sidearm does 75% damage, strike is blockable and normal damage
Sidearm does 100% damage, strike is unblockable with 110% damage, or blockable with 140% damage
This way it can be used actually tactically, say they're about to massacre, and have 40 hp, you gun them, bringing them to 25, they bloodlust back to 29, giving your bludgeon enough health to work with a win, doing about 30 damage

Two nerfs which would keep the essence of the pistol completely, just make it slightly less destructive and game-owning



Drianx -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 3:26:12)

quote:

That is not a factor for making or not making changes to the game.

Yes it is, because it alters the value of the item. This means if you want to maintain a good business practice, you should offer a compensation everytime you nerf something people have paid money for. But this was never a habit in EpicDuel so I hardly expect anyone would learn from this. It's a kids game after all, and you can take their candies back anytime, right?

Oh and if you feel there is the slightest problem with a promo being Oped, you should immediately withdraw the promo until the problem is solved somehow. Otherwise you're only cheating people into buying it thinking they will have an advantage. This is another good business practice. Unless leaving them for sale when they are Oped is part of the plan...



Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 4:35:11)

Blaze, true that with connecting although there were cases where you've missed thus it was technically a free stun for them (no damage taken).

If it was between these two (like you've suggested):
Sidearm does 75% damage, strike is blockable and normal damage
Sidearm does 100% damage, strike is unblockable with 110% damage, or blockable with 140% damage

Then I'd go for the first one, purely because you MAY deal more damage (if we go for 140%) but that can still be blocked. Unblockable wouldn't be much different to what it is now, as you've said apparently, so I'd rather 75% damage is dealt and we deal blockable damage as we do now. Strength abusers who rely on this Gun would deal less damage so it'd have been less of an advantage for them. Same with tankier builds abusing the Gun, damage difference would be low.



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 6:51:17)

@Drianz
You're actually arguing with RabbleFroth? Lol. Good luck with that.

@Trans/Blaze
What both of you're suggesting sounds a lot like my original nerf suggestion, so in not putting anything on the first page until we get something different.

@Trans
quote:

Sidearm deals 100% just so there's an advantage in using the core. So if you're forced to Strike then you do but for 75% damage and unblockable. Person using the Sidearm deals full damage. Still retains its effect but abusing it at wrong time or against wrong player could prove deadly. And is still useful yet more balanced.

I'm agreeing with Blaze on this one. ^ That doesn't look like a nerf to me.



Ranloth -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 7:04:46)

Because clearly, unblockable effect is worth nothing in terms of damage so penalty for it is meaningless. <.< So incentive to use the core is? I use Azrael's Will, force them to Strike me, they deal normal damage and then what? In 1v1, it's difference of blocking it or not blocking. If blocked, free stun for them really. If not blocked, good, you've just dealt 100% damage which may suck if you don't rely on Strength. So the core (in 1v1) relies on.. block to justify its usefulness. In 2v2, they are forced to Strike you which can save your partner and such but it relies on block again.

Whilst if they deal 75% damage when using Will, they end up dealing 175% damage whilst you can easily deal 200%. Where's advantage in this, especially in 1v1? In 2v2, it's only good to save your partner or if you really know that you're gonna die (last resort skill). But if you get blocked, they deal 175% damage and you deal mere 100% thus they get 75% advantage in terms of damage. What I've suggested is give then 200% damage and you deal 175% instead (with 75% being unblockable). So they have guaranteed 25% damage advantage whilst with above suggestion, you have chance for 200% damage or 100% damage, whilst they deal 175% either way with attack + Will. Especially with blocks being unreliable, I still don't see how chance of dealing 100% and 200% damage is better than guaranteed 175% instead, with former dealing 150% on average.

But yeah, let's screw logic. Dealing 100% damage + Will (100%) & you dealing 100% or 200% (blockable) < dealing 100% damage + Will (100%) & you dealing guaranteed 175% damage. So totally, this is not a nerf, more like a buff for them right? 25% damage difference but unblockable and average is 175% instead of 150%. Not mentioning SA + Block Core + high Dex altogether with the Gun. Yep. Bro, do you even lift balance?

(200% damage and 175% damage is assumed by taking 2 turns worth of attack, including being forced to Strike)



Warmaker04 -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 7:13:11)

i Got and idea!
50% forcing to attack, it may fail + who is forced to attack gets bonus 15 HP and 10 energy



Warmaker04 -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 12:47:25)

lol green the 5th idea is for buffing idea not for nerfing lol



Trae -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 15:33:19)

how about you dont nerf it the only reason its op is because of the kinda messed up balance so how bout we fix that then see if its still op



xGreen Warriorx -> RE: Azraels Will Nerf Ideas (2/26/2013 15:52:27)

@Trans
I'm sorry, but I really dont understand what you're saying. .-.

@Warmaker04
No the 5th idea is a nerf. Instead of only being able to strike, you can use all but one of your other weapons, and you can heal and buff yourself. I'll make that more clear in the first post.
Your idea is way too big of a nerf. Like I said earlier to someones excessive nerf, Azraels Will doesn't need to be destroyed, as that will make everyone who bought it very mad.

@Trae
Azraels Will is part of the messed up balance. Putting an issue aside doesnt fix it.



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