Frenzy Underpowered? (Full Version)

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master x guardian -> Frenzy Underpowered? (3/1/2013 21:35:56)

No one took notice of this when I posted in ED Patch Notes so I'm going to raise it here:

quote:

If Blood Lust got a buff, shouldn't Frenzy have gotten one too?
I mean old Blood Lust did 23% at Max and it's passive so over two turns you get 46% strike damage worth of HP back. Frenzy was 42% at level 5 and is an active skill. Not so bad but now Tact Mercs also do less damage AND blood lust now heals 54% at Max whereas Frenzy is still 42% at level 5. In fact, Max Blood Lust gives almost as much HP over 2 turns as one Frenzy does at Max (54% vs. 57%).
I think Frenzy needs a buff considering Blood Lust gives almost as much over 2 turns without costing anything and Frenzy can only be used every 3 turns AND for a cost.


To add to my point using frenzy twice at Level 5 (Very standard frenzy level in my opinion) would heal 84% but this takes FIVE turns because:

Frenzy 1>Cool down 3>Cool down 2>Cool down 1>Frenzy 2

Whereas in those same 5 turns, a Bounty Hunter with Max Blood Lust heals 135% of their damage...for FREE whereas this costs the Tact Merc 26 energy.
Even at Max Frenzy, in those five turns, a Tact Merc only heals 114%...this active skill is losing out to a passive even at Max power and it now costs 36 energy instead...



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/1/2013 21:50:14)

Given the recent buff to tank builds because of the lowering of damage output through support and strength nerfs, a high frenzy and level 3-ish field medic TLM focus build is VERY successful. Frenzy also helps those maul-using surg builds in many situations when fighting high damage output builds like support mercs. I would really be satisfied with an extra 3% lifesteal from frenzy on every level given the buff from blood lust, but I think that as it is right now, it's fine. If anything needs buffing, it's reroute; it got really hit down by the new HP system introduced in Omega, and its depended on more cause of the lowered energy investment rate too. I still don't see how it's logical that reroute didn't get buffed but blood lust did.



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/1/2013 21:57:00)

Well I can't really say I've had trouble but I haven't done too many battles to produce a conclusive analysis. All I'm saying is that from a purely quantitative standpoint Frenzy seems a little lacking especially since it costs energy to use but loses out quite significantly to Blood Lust. And the more turns that pass, the bigger the difference. If we go up to 9 turns, Blood Lust becomes 243% at Max whereas Frenzy is still only 171% and now it costs 54 energy. Now 9 turn battles are fairly rare (If not non-existent) in Omega but again, this is just purely figures and I haven't fought enough to come to an actual conclusion (Hence the question mark in "Frenzy Underpowered?"). I should be more clear and say that this could use more looking into, in my humble opinion.

I will say that you do bring up a good point with Reroute since I've never thought about that. Although the higher energy pools available now certainly make Reroute not as bad as one might think.

EDIT: I suppose I should also mention that Blood Lust works with all attacks whereas Frenzy is limited to a blockable strike. Meaning if Max level Frenzy is blocked, the amount healed over 9 turns would become the amount over 5 turns. However, a BH and BM can just easily string together unblockable moves with two distinct advantages: 1) BHs have Shadow Arts and inherently good DEX making blocks less likely anyway and 2) BMs have Deadly Aim powering up their Sidearm unblockable so they heal more.



Midnightsoul -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/2/2013 15:27:12)

Agreed. It bothers me even more how blood commander> Field Commander+ Frenzy.



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/2/2013 15:57:35)

^Yeah that's an excellent point because that grants a mini Blood Lust that also isn't limited to any type of attack. If I'm not mistaken, the life steal is the same across all levels...
I'd also like to again mention Blood Mages+Max Blood Lust+Side Arm+Deadly Aim=A lot of HP back...



ur going to fail -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/2/2013 19:58:42)

you have a good point, but TLM isn't really UP right now, its uncommon, but not UP. So there really a point in solving a problem that doesn't exist. If TLM becomes UP then this wouldn't be a bad idea.



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/2/2013 22:41:04)

Well, as I've said before, this is purely based on the numbers of Blood Lust and Frenzy alone. I'll need to do more in-game testing to verify anything. Surely, you must admit that based off the percentages alone, that this matter merits looking into?



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/2/2013 23:39:11)

Hmm..I think it's how the skills work with the entire skill tree. Reroute gives energy based off of HP, and if you rage frenzy you can literally heal a total of over 100 HP in a normal fight given heal looping with generator, field medic, and frenzies. I think that frenzy hasn't been changed because, when used correctly, you can easily gain around 1/5-1/4 of the energy spent on it back from frenzy when converting the health recovered using reroute.



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/3/2013 2:29:56)

I did forget to mention synergy but like I said, Blood Mages and Bounty Hunters also have synergizing moves:
1) Blood Mages have Deadly Aim to boost gun damage by up to 10.
2) Bounty Hunters have Shadows Arts which increases their own block chance and decreases the need for healing anyway.
And both have Reflex Boost which makes blocking them more difficult; Reflex Boost also acts as a sort of Reroute, giving back some energy.

And again, to reiterate, BMs and BHs can easily heal more based on pure numbers. You're saying that a TLM could heal 100 HP in a battle with all those abilities; however, BHs and BMs can also get Generator and Field Medic. And I've already shown that a Maxed Blood Lust can even out-perform a Maxed Frenzy, which, let's face it, not many TLMs have. Reroute is inherently dependent on HP levels anyway, so it would take about 50 damage to give back roughly 15 energy for a Frenzy while in those turns, a BM and BH could've just kept healing. They are also not limited to pure strike, which can be blocked.



Trifire -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/3/2013 14:54:17)

I think that frenzy should get a boost. Blood lust got a boost or 4%. Frenzy should get a boost of 8-12%.



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/4/2013 19:17:46)

8-12% across all levels seems kind of high but I suppose it would produce the same effect as lowering the cool-down or cost.
Another thing worth mentioning: Frenzy restricts you to a Club. Blood Lust can be used with a sword which gives 5 extra stats and one extra damage so the healing potential for Blood Mages and Bounty Hunters becomes even greater.



Cursed Darkness -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/4/2013 20:05:38)

This will definitely need 2 be looked at because Frenzy does need a buff.



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/4/2013 20:08:38)

I'm glad some agree with me but one of the good points that Exploding Penguin brought up was synergy with the rest of the tree. Granted, BM and BH have synergy as well, but it's still a valid point.



Drianx -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 2:46:42)

No, I disagree.
And before jumping onto me, I have this TLM and I am using Frenzy both in tank builds and strength builds and I am doing just fine against lv35s. It is enough as it is.



zion -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 3:01:50)

Lower the cooldown to 2 -> something worth investing points in.



Ranloth -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 3:22:26)

That'd make it easily loopable at very low EP cost, even Lvl 1 could do since you could use it more often instead.



zion -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 3:57:01)

So lower the percentage... only a final move should have 3 turn cooldown.



Ranloth -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 4:04:13)

Lower % and 2 turn cooldown? Why not keep % as it is (higher) and keep 3 turn cooldown? Same thing. And not really no, power can be justified by the tier and when it's available to the player.



Scyze -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 4:17:14)

Its doing fine right now and if you don't like it, take Energy away. You have a range of options to do this.
I never found a problem with this Skill, I've used it thousands of times.

Have you looked at only one problem or have you tried hard to think of others? If Frenzy is altered, how do you think Tactical Mercenaries will perform in Juggernaut battles? Blood Lust is constantly granting HP while Frenzy has cool down. In those turns, how much will BL regain HP? Most of the time, more than Frenzy. Even though TLMs already have Reroute, does it always mean its better than BL?

The current cool down time is perfect. I don't want the Skill to be changed/ improved.



zion -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 5:00:56)

If the aim is to have all the skills on the same level of usefulness, any skill which is barely being used (like frenzy, or supercharge for BMs for example) needs a change. In this case frenzy is a sister skill of static charge and should function in the same way. Lower the percentage a bit but make it a two turn cooldown for an overall slight buff and exactly on par with SC.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/5/2013 20:05:29)

frenzy is not really useful because you'd need some good strength to get some decent health. yea, i guess it deserves a buff



Giras Wolfe -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/6/2013 0:02:03)

-Make it usable with a sword.
-6% increase at all levels



master x guardian -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/6/2013 20:27:59)

Yeah I believe Giras posted a good amount to raise it by. And lifting the sword requirement is good too. I don't know why they put that there in the first place tbh. Maybe to stop the Strength TLMs? Well they're no longer an issue and TLM doesn't have Smoke Screen anymore so I think it should be usable for all weapons.



Onlythestrong -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/6/2013 21:31:16)

suport!!!!!!!!!!



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Frenzy Underpowered? (3/6/2013 22:22:37)

Giras posted a good suggestion, but I feel that the 5 stat bonus and extra 1 damage on swords is too much for frenzy. I think it should just be raised by 6% at all levels, as its energy cost is fair. I also believe that that even if you get blocked you still get a portion of the life you should have recovered back because being blocked when using a high level frenzy pretty much ruins the skill, and TLMs already have a passive physical armor to make it harder for them to invest dex into.



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