Cores inflicting debuffs on strike are unfairly strong (Full Version)

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Drianx -> Cores inflicting debuffs on strike are unfairly strong (3/10/2013 5:06:20)

FrostBite is ridiculously unfair. Strikes for full damage and cripples classes that do not regain energy.

Also Chairman's Fury is too strong: 100% damage, unblockable and stealing Rage.

I suggest that every active core than inflicts a debuff upon striking - like Azrael's Will, FrostBite, Chairman's Fury - to deal 85% damage.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/10/2013 5:21:41)

I'm not entirely certain about this, but isn't FrostBite a passive core?



Drianx -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/10/2013 5:31:03)

It's only passive for the armors. For the weapons it is active. They strike for 100% damage and inflict -5 energy per turn.



Remorse -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/10/2013 5:31:41)

^ Above the weapon primary skill core is an activateable.


On topic I have the core and I agree it is very useful, giving it 85% damage is definitely an acceptable nerf.





theholyfighter -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/10/2013 8:55:37)

Agree. It's 100% occurable, as well as dealing 100% strike damage.

85% damage doesn't seem bad.



Bloodpact -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:04:57)

It's not it's 15 energy is over 3 turns.

If a reduction of dmg was to be at 85% the energy it reduced should be increased.
Another core counters this one which can regain your 15 energy while also regaining 15 hp.

Not supported.



Mother1 -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:29:16)

Even though I don't own this weapon I don't support it. While this can do 100% damage and remove up to 15 energy the generator core is a perfect counter to this.



Drianx -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:29:59)

@above

Still you mentioned no reason why it shouldn't be nerfed (because you have it?). Besides, it's not a matter of only 15 energy, 1-2 energy is often enough to ruin your whole strategy.

I have added Chairman's Fury to the nerfing list in first post because it is also a strike which inflicts a debuff.



Rayman -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:31:53)

Supported.
And blood: that core doesn't regains 15hp and 15 Ep all the time, if your armor defences are all allocated into def, you will gain +25 hp and 5 ep



Drianx -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:35:04)

Generator is not a perfect counter. Apart from the fact that it may be allocated differently, it's a matter of timing.

Let's say you have full energy and FrostBite is cast. If you use Generator right away, you will only regain 5 EP, but you will still leak 10 EP over the next two rounds.

So you're forced to use generator on the third round.

It is a big disadvantage.



Rayman -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:38:00)

Drianx:
azraels will got nerfed already, it doesn't deal 100% DmG, I think it's 80 or 85% now



Mother1 -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 0:55:36)

@ drianx

Unlike most of the core Frostbite's damage is blockable. Most of the cores that have been nerfed in damage weren't blockable but frostbite and curse are a few of the exceptions. Also as for the so call cripping effect of frostbite for classes that don't have energy while you said generator isn't a perfect counter, it is still a counter that can be used to this.



Remorse -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 1:12:19)

I completely agree with drianx,

Every strike based effect core, should be nerfed to 85% regardless of its block ability.


Making it 85% is NOT crippling the core at all.

I have the core, I find it extremely useful and would definitely use it still with 85% damage.


What I find annoying is when people use cores like this for damage purposes simply because their other attacks are in cool down so they use this since its 100% instead of striking.


Cores should be used for their strategical purposes not because they won't to fill the gaps.




Also stating generator is a complete counter is ridiculous.


If the person used frostbite and you were then forced to generate.

You lose a MASSIVE 2 turn rage advanatge.

Making your opponent likely to rage 2 turns earlier then you.

Not only that but they can still deal decent damage especially when inflicted with malfunction using frostbite.




Generator is a nice skill sure but it is NOTHING compared to the rage benefit from frostbite.



As most of you should no keeping up rage when playing defensively is very tricky frostbite and assimilation are 2 of the very few skill that can keep up the rage while trying to stop powerful energy based attacks a powerful effect on its own.









I am one of the few player that would actually admit something of their own that is not balanced.


So I think you should listen to my unbiased opinion.



Ranloth -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 3:37:34)

quote:

I am one of the few player that would actually admit something of their own that is not balanced.


So I think you should listen to my unbiased opinion.

Anyone can do that..? Biased opinion can also count, it's still an opinion and it's up to you how you understand it and whether you'll take it as a good feedback.

Also whether you lose 2 turn advantage due to Generator is irrelevant. It's your choice whether you wanna counter the EP leak or not. I don't see how it's a massive difference. Back when Str builds were a bit stronger, I used to Shield and Heal usually in space of 2 turns thus no attack was made yet I still managed to win. Likewise on these Support builds even now which is Aux + Multi (Mercs), then I just fight as normal with special caution to Aux (and drain EP if needed). 2 turns isn't massive, what's massive is the exaggeration. Perhaps you gotta learn how to overcome the 2 turn loss without taking in too much damage and catch up with your damage? It works fine, and it's your choice whether to counter or keep fighting.



Remorse -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 6:05:09)

^ I dont see whats wrong in making strike dubuff effects only inflict 85%.


Since what they should be used for is the effect, not because it just filling in cool downs for a strike alternative.


Plus its not that much of a big deal.


Its just a nice balance and strategy improving (since they will be used more for the strategic effect) balance change.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 14:23:54)

Remorse has a good point. I like Azrael's will much more now. Most players used it on their first sidearm shot because they "might as well." With reduced damage, you have to weigh if it's worth using. So a small nerf to their % damage would make players think harder about what situation to use it in.

However I would leave chairman's fury alone, because having that core sacrifices the ability to use Regenerate, which is a critically important core to have.

Also, the Omega sword debuffs should be unchanged.



Mother1 -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 14:32:20)

@ giras

I personally think chairman's fury should be changed but in a different way. I still think it shouldn't be useable with rage since the purpose of this attack is to be an unblockable hit that steal 25% of the target's rage and gives it to you. However when using it with rage you don't take rage since the bar is already full so it is being used a free unblockable hit which is like Remorse and Drianx said being used to fill in the holes.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 14:37:09)

I agree that making it incompatible with rage would be a very acceptable nerf.

But I firmly hold that, like malfunction, smokescreen, and intimidate, omega debuff and Curse should both do 100% damage because that's the way the skills were intended to function and their relatively low reductions (10-20) make them far from being an issue.



STRUT MY MUTT -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 14:56:29)

Not supported on frostbite core.

It's a highly blockable strike that does a measely little -15 energy reduction over three additional turns.

Leave it as is...



l



ScarletReaper -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 15:16:41)

^What this guy said.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/11/2013 15:24:59)

For now, I think it should be left, mainly just because the only weapons with frostbite have their passive slot consumed by something useless. If that slot ever gets unlocked, then frostbite could stand to be reduced to 90% damage instead.



Remorse -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/12/2013 6:01:44)

@ Giras,

Exactly, I also think the nerf to azreal has had a great impact because some thought is now required on when to use it, since it deal less damage is some situations you could be worse off using it.



Currently I see many people using frostbite simple because they were gonna strike anyway and the energy drain becomes an added bonus.

This tarnishes the strategy behind the core when with 85% damage only, people will at least have some thought into whether they need to drain the energy in the first place.


Since armor activate-ables seem to have a better standard then the rest then I am fine with the fact of PP's chairman's fury stays at 100%.



JariTheMighty -> RE: FrostBite is unfairly strong (3/12/2013 6:26:35)

You can't draw a line between cores which you think deserve reduced attack power and which don't. The logic "well this effect isn't as powerful as that one so it's okay for it to have 100% attack power" doesn't work here because the effectiveness and usefulness of the ability depends purely on the situation in which they are used.

Using the same logic Concussive Shot should be buffed from 80% to 100% because "it isn't that powerful", or "can't see the harm in it".

Of course this excludes skills (Malf, Smoke etc.) because using them costs energy. ^^

100% attack + effect shouldn't happen.



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