RE: Epic Duel's Decline (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/15/2013 19:15:52)

Gold,

The other positive thing about custom skill trees, is in the skill pool itself. We would be selecting from a pool of 43 skills, and the pool would be flexible as new skills could be added to it like Titan does with inherited skill cores when he and Rab make those.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/15/2013 19:29:19)

@Depressed Void
yup.
cores on the other hand aren't really categorized (besides active/passive) so they have no standard for how balanced it should be compared to others of the same category.

i will be making a new post in the custom skill tree thread soon, gonna try to get some more feedback.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/15/2013 23:22:58)

What some do not grasp is that it is better to improve one class at a time and the class that has the less viable build options is the Blood Mage so I was focusing on that not for myself because my wins especially 2vs2 out number most here it was for the players that can’t afford varium or get enough credits for the best gear so those players will have more losses than wins. So after suggesting new skills for the blood mage and getting attacked by the Nerf Trolls than I came up with new skills with the Tact merc and Cyber hunter and I still got attacked. So the Nerf Trolls really don’t want to see new skills for the new classes because they are afraid of change and if the loose too much than they say Nerf, Nerf, Nerf.

Only ones that wanted Deadly Aim Nerfed was the ones thought that what was causing them to loose against the Blood Mage when again it was Bludgeon. Deadly Aim helped the players with low strength more than high strength but when the Nerf Trolls demanding for a Nerf they got it hurting players that did not used high strength.

The Players playing the Blood Mage are only doing fine because of the Infernal Android getting 60+ damage on rage I 100% guarantee without that bot or any bot they would switch class or stop playing without a moments notice and if the Blood mage was doing so fine then why do we see more hunters mainly bounty and very little Blood Mages in battle.

As myself and many other players wrote before Nerfing is not the answer either buffing or creating counter skills.

If there was a problem with massacre instead of Nerfing how about creating a skill core to counter it by having a high chance of blocking the massacre attack.

If berzerker or any blockable skill is not being blocked as often as they should simple solution fix blocking and take out the non debuff skills to put blocking chance the same for all classes and if that still does not fix the no blocking problem than fix the equations.

If Plasma Cannon and Bunker Buster is not equal in potential damage at the same tech than don’t nerf bunker but buff Plasma Cannon especially when the game started to get basically 96% tech abuse builds so that the blood mage can deal with those players better.

For the multis don’t nerf artillery strike, get rid of the 85% reduction on multiple targets and buff Plasma rain and multi shot so that the battle damage would be equal at the same stat level.

The ratio gap between strength/support and dex /tech need to be adjusted so that the classe without hybrid armor can see the difference in defense and resistance.

Goldslayer1, even with the Nerf to Bludgeon with the fireball at max Level 1 Bludgeon still gets more damage and often critical damage and instead of nerfing all they had to do was fix the blocking. When we actually seen Bludgeon blocked when I was a tech mage no one even bother using it but now since players see that Bludgeon is not blocked especially by a Blood Mage both Blood Mages and Tech Mages uses that skill as their primary attack to the point it is irritating.

Myself and other Veteran Players tried to stop the Nerfs but the Nerf Trolls won every single time. They have skill cores now instead of even more nerfs create skill cores to counter, like one that will actually show a noticeable difference in blocking. Create a skill core that will buff Plasma Rain..



Mother1 -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 0:52:38)

@ hun

If they 'focus' on BM by itself what about the rest of the classes? remember buffing one class up will in fact make other classes weaker against it if left alone. Plus in case you haven't noticed BM has gotten quite a few buffs such as with blood lust, and fireball.

Plus let's not forget that some of those nerfs to BM depending on the skill affected other classes since they share skills. If you nerf Deadly aim (which they did) you affect TM as well since they have the same passive, The same could be said of plasma rain, overload, Bludgeon, and Supercharge (For TM) and quite frankly the reason why the staff nerfs so much is because in order to buff they would have to buff ALL the classes not just one like you are suggesting. Where as with nerfing you only need to do one.

So buffing 5 classes or nerfing one Which do you think the staff will choose?



Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 7:04:41)

Funny story.

AQ had a thread like this, in which users predicted the game's decline and eventual shutdown due to various factors that were ongoing at the time. The Sweep, for example, was supposed to ruin the game and nerf everything and make it a truly awful game that no one would want to play.

That was over four years ago. And unless I'm participating in a shared delusion, AQ is still running today.

Did we lose players? Sure we did. There are always people who will disapprove of the way things are currently being handled, or who will be scared of future changes, and they will make a knee-jerk reaction to jump ship. Fortunately for the game developing industry, however, these people turn out to be a relatively small portion of the game's overall population, and while their loss is regrettable, the game most certainly does not "die" without them around.

And AQ is not the first nor will it be the last game to field such predictions. In fact, every single online game I have ever played has seen these same predictions. All of them are still running today.

Just something to think about.

I'll leave this alive provided positive discussion can come of it. If it becomes another rant thread, this thread will be closed.



Noobatron x3000 -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 7:53:17)

^AQ has a bigger player base more content . Balance isn't a issue since their is 0 pvp . It isn't even an MMO . Like comparing a tonne of a gold and a rotten apple.Not to mention artix has recently released a new pvp game. I think he knows where this game is going , South far far south (shutdown most likely)

This isn't a rant neither this is merely me pointing out things that i think are relevant to the thread and the fact that i think the staff are also aware even at the top this game is declining. Of course no one is going to admit that for obvious reasons.



Ranloth -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 8:03:04)

You're wrong there. Only because it's not PvP, that doesn't mean balance is not important. Bigger playerbase? It's usually below 1,000 except for the release days, compared to old 10-15K few years back. Furthermore, the difference in team size is crucial here and different coding. If the game was to shut down because it's doing that bad - apparently - why hasn't it already? Why keep a game that's making a loss? MQ is and it's still going, well, towards its Final release but the game will still be around despite making little to no profit. WarpForce too.

In addition, AQ is around for 11 years now. ED has merged with AE in '09. Significant difference of 7 years. I still pity your words "balance isn't a(n) issue since their is 0 pvp" - really wrong. You don't even realise that but this isn't AQ section so I won't prolong the topic any longer about AQ.

quote:

Of course no one is going to admit that for obvious reasons.

Obvious reasons aren't so obvious. Why would they lie to the community in the first place? If the game is to shut down, why create more content? To milk more money and close it all? You're looking at a wrong company. Look at MQ and then say "declining game" and "heading towards shutdown".



Noobatron x3000 -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 8:05:28)

quote:

To milk more money and close it all?


Precisely why they wouldn't admit it. People would stop spending money knowing the game was going down the pan.

This game is absolutely declining the servers never get to where they were late delta now . Waiting for battles takes much longer. Both indicate less people playing . And I'm on pretty much at scattered times across the timezones. This game certainly isn't moving forward in "popularity". I would strongly argue it is declining at best stagnating.



zion -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 8:10:16)

LB, that is well and good... However, this seems to be happening in ED way too often - sure the game is still around, but without AE's backing, the game would have shut down by now. I don't see how a business model of: "Get a few hundred people to purchase a $50 freemium pack every year" could possibly be sustainable when there are two full-time programmers, two full-time artists and other part-time staff. Instead of increasing the player pool, nerfing Varium and neglecting the npc part of the game has caused a sharp decrease in the player pool... any objective or subjective measure is screaming that as a fact. Other gaming companies have been relegated to the scrap heap because of customer neglect and ED (not saying AE in general) has a history of it.



Ranloth -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 8:11:06)

Yeah. If that was done purposely, you can take actions in court. Unless it was to shutdown due to likes of fraud, thus owing money and having to sell the assets, then they cannot do that. Business 101, have a read how it works. This is more of a mature discussion, just so you know. You seem to know a little about how it works, if at all.

Wrong company as well. It's not all about the money. MQ has - most likely - been making a loss for a while yet its still around. Parts of AQW Team are working on MQ's final release which will be big, probably along the lines of 10th Anniversary Event in AQ. Why do it if it's making a loss? Perhaps.. to satisfy players? WarpForce is in the same position (doesn't get updates) and it's still around. It's not all about the money. While the aim of each business is to make money, AE also values player satisfaction hence why they listen to the community. Not just ED, all of AE games.



Scyze -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 8:21:53)

@Noobatron x3000,
quote:

Precisely why they wouldn't admit it. People would stop spending money knowing the game was going down the pan.
There would be reasons to why things aren't told to the public. Are there things that we don't know that the government is hiding? It's a possibility and if it's true, there's a reason.
quote:

People would stop spending money knowing the game was going down the pan.
For god's sake, it can come out of nowhere. Does everything seem like it's already planned?


@zion,
quote:

...the game would have shut down by now.
Now where is this written? Things can happen unprecedentedly, I can die 5 seconds after I post this. It's possible for me to somehow explode even though I'm not fat. It's possible that a meteorite somehow drops into the atmosphere of the Earth without satellite/telescopes picking it up.
Look here: http://www.archknight.com/ The site's not had much updates I presume due to the
quote:

Copyright © 2010... or © 2005-2006 Artix Entertainment LLC...
at the bottom of the page.

Ooooooohh, in case you didn't know, Artix said that the company values players over profit.

quote:

Other gaming companies have been relegated to the scrap heap because of customer neglect and ED (not saying AE in general) has a history of it.
Prove it.



STRUT MY MUTT -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 10:13:00)

1. Delta had some flaws, but it was more fun. Someone said they had to spend tons of money because the Promo weapons and armors kept getting outdated too quickly. That's a completely untrue statement. Many of the Promos were viable until the end of Delta. Azreal, Bionic battlegear, Delta weapons, Frost weapons, Jack weapons, Infernal weapons, Dragon weapons. a lot of them word level 34 weapons but we're still fine at level 35. Plus, the weapons could have been made upgradeable without changing everything like it is now.

The game has become too complicated. Sometimes simple is more fun.

2. Regarding Promos. I don't appreciate being tricked into spending $50 with the promise of a core and then it's nerfed shortly afterwards. I don't care if you nerf skills, strength tech, dex, focus, support etc. that's all fine and good but if I spend 50 dollars you should leave it alone. It should be illegal but it's not because we were coerced into agreeing to the terms and conditions.





Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 16:17:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noobatron x3000

^AQ has a bigger player base more content . Balance isn't a issue since their is 0 pvp . It isn't even an MMO . Like comparing a tonne of a gold and a rotten apple.Not to mention artix has recently released a new pvp game. I think he knows where this game is going , South far far south (shutdown most likely)
While I can't say for certain what the total player numbers are between AQ and ED (because I honestly don't know), I can say that AQ and ED had comparable concurrency numbers the last time I heard.

AQ has more content because it's almost 11 years old now (we're darn proud of it, too!) and has been releasing new content every week. ED does not have a weekly schedule and has been a part of AE for less than half as long. That's an apples to oranges comparison that has no real merit.

And I wouldn't consider the release of a new PvP game to be tantamount to the death of every previous game. After all, by your logic, DragonFable would be an admission of the "failure" of AQ, and we'd have been shut down years ago. Yet we are still running and working hard to surpass what we've done in the past, week after week. And this is the case with numerous games throughout history: for example, Guild Wars 1 is still running and funding itself just fine despite the release of Guild Wars 2 nearly nine months ago. The release of one game does not mean that the previous one simply ceases to be.

PvP is something players throughout AE's games have demanded more of, and we are trying to release more competitive content to keep up with the demand. In fact, as often as it's been requested throughout AQ's history, we'd probably have at least considered adding it to AQ as well if it were possible (however the game's engine is simply not built for it) simply because of the surprising level of demand for more competition in our games.

quote:

This isn't a rant neither this is merely me pointing out things that i think are relevant to the thread and the fact that i think the staff are also aware even at the top this game is declining. Of course no one is going to admit that for obvious reasons.
I think you are confusing facts (things that are tangible, measurable, and come with provable data) with opinions (personal beliefs and assertions that often lack any form of analytical backing).

I've been given no indication that ED's numbers are anywhere near the "failing" suggestions that this thread continues to suggest are true. Perhaps you can provide the metrics to back your presumptions? If not, I would kindly recommend that you refrain from posting fabrications in this forum, as we cannot have a productive and meaningful discussion when individuals are throwing out radical assertions with no proof.



zion -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 17:57:10)

Go on at off-times, like the mid-morning in the US and there are literally 400 users signed in to only 1 active server. The numbers are a bit better during power hours. I have been playing since 2009 and never saw such consistently low numbers. The numbers inflate a bit during events/wars but as soon as the cheevos are won, you see the ~400 again every weekday. When the server is at 400, loading times are longer and battles are often matched at the extreme level differences. On a consistent basis the game lacks a healthy pvp ecosystem. Other AE games are geared mainly towards pve so it wouldn't be a big deal. This is a pvp game and there has definitely been a decline in the pvp experience. I'm not saying the game is dead, but there is a lot of room for improvement.



Xendran -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 18:30:08)

quote:

I've been given no indication that ED's numbers are anywhere near the "failing" suggestions that this thread continues to suggest are true.


Game has been with ae since late 2009
Game population currently dips at around 300, peaks at around 1300. Even back in 2010 this was usually a dip of around 700 and peaks of 2100. That's a 40% loss from beta, a phase where you usually have a substantially lower player base due to bugs, testing, less advertising, etc.

Currently ED has an average of 4-6% of the population of people playing AE games.



Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 22:50:02)

Those are wonderful estimations. But I asked for data.

Specifically, data which proves that the game is "failing". A lower population doesn't prove that. Every game that's been out for a number of years experiences a drop in players. That does not indicate that the game is on the verge of collapse.



Xendran -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 23:13:07)

quote:

Those are wonderful estimations. But I asked for data.

Specifically, data which proves that the game is "failing". A lower population doesn't prove that. Every game that's been out for a number of years experiences a drop in players. That does not indicate that the game is on the verge of collapse.


Approximation, not estimation.

You know that raw data is not legally accessible to us, so don't ask for it.
The closest thing you're likely to get to legal raw data from outside of AE is google trends (Which does show a crash at dec 2012, but that data isn't truly relevant).

I have been watching this game closely over the last 4 years, and the playerbase has never crashed long-term as hard or as quickly as it has been in 2013.
While it is usual that a game eventually declines and then dies, it can often be very heavily accellerated by something like Omega Delivered on very little of what the players actually wanted, not fully tested).

It's obvious that we're losing players at a faster rate than before and gaining them at a slower one, and that does mean the game is failing.
Your point about every game seeing a decline after a few years is valid, but there are a few things:
1. Every games decline eventually leads to its failure. When it comes to a persistent game like this with no sequels, once the game fails you're toast.
2. The ED player crash is now consistent and fast. Previously, we had spikes up and down. The entirety of 2013 has been a consistent drop, even during updates and wars.
Yes, ED used to be very successful and had potential. Yes, ED is now in a state of failing due to a hard consistent player loss.



Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 23:26:13)

No, an approximation implies that you had actual numbers.

You have not provided any beyond your own observations (and it is worth noting that observations are not reliable data, in fact eyewitness testimony is consistently the least reliable evidence in any legal proceedings), so "estimation" is the correct term.

Now I'll ask again, because I would like to see something positive emerge from this discussion: do you have proof that the game is dying beyond your own presumptions?



Xendran -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 23:35:34)

quote:

Now I'll ask again, because I would like to see something positive emerge from this discussion:


Impossible at this moment. This thread is almost completely polarized between dead/not dead.
ED is not dead, it's dying. The approximate numbers (which can be obtained very easily by simply recording the usercount every set interval) show a steady decline in 2013 like ED has never seen before.
You can believe that ED isn't dead, that's fine. I don't believe it's dead either. But you cannot deny that it is in the process of dying, and the developer decisions as of late have seemed to significantly hastened it.

---

quote:

do you have proof that the game is dying beyond your own presumptions?



quote:

You know that raw data is not legally accessible to us, so don't ask for it.


---

quote:

You have not provided any beyond your own observations


Nor have you. Just because what I say is a personal observation (one which can be done by anybody in the world with an internet connection and access to epicduel) does not automatically make it incorrect or invalid.



Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/16/2013 23:52:04)

Except you haven't provided data to suggest that it's "dying".

And you're the one making said accusation, so the burden of proof lies on you.

Last chance: do you have proof or not?

EDIT:
quote:

Nor have you. Just because what I say is a personal observation (one which can be done by anybody in the world with an internet connection and access to epicduel) does not automatically make it incorrect or invalid.
You don't get to say "well you haven't proven your statements either" because I never made any claims about the game's population whatsoever.

In fact I distinctly stated that I did not have the data in front of me and could not make an assertion either way.

What I did state is that a decline in population does not indicate that the game is "dying". There is abundant evidence from other games to suggest that such claims are simply not true, and are generally perpetuated by a vast minority of very vocal individuals.



Xendran -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/17/2013 0:08:41)

I'd be inclined to believe that the game was in a decent shape if its numbers weren't already so low.
It's almost like ED never even was fully alive in the first place to be honest. 2009 felt like a kick start into a great competetive game, but it never really hit the peak that it could have.

Although who knows, perhaps i might have high standards on what's considered a game that is doing well.
For the amount of work that was put into ED, i wouldn't be happy with the player count being so low after merging with a company like AE.



Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/17/2013 0:31:09)

I didn't make that claim, either. I suggest rather highly that you review my initial statements.

What I have said is thus:
  1. I have personally observed these exact same claims being leveled against the game that I'm working on. Said game is still running, and most of our userbase at present would agree that it's actually producing better content now than it ever did before.
  2. Population is not an accurate measurement of how a game is doing.
  3. We have consistently released new games on a regular basis to keep up with demand. A new PvP game no more indicates the "death" of ED than DF did for AQ.

I have made no assertions whatsoever on the status of ED itself. Nor would I, because I don't know and don't claim to know. You'd have to ask the devs of ED themselves for that information.

I've merely pointed out my own observations both as a gamer of considerable experience with several MMOs (all of which experienced "doomsayers" and all of which are still running today) and a developer for AE (where I was a first-hand witness to similar "doomsaying", right before we hit the best streak of content the game has ever experienced in its nearly eleven year history). Every game out there experiences these exact same trends. And almost all of them have outlasted their "doomsaying" predictions by a margin of several years.

Furthermore, I've asked you for the evidence to back your observations, for which you have admitted that you have none. You state that these are merely your observations, but seemingly cannot even provide those raw numbers for consideration either.

So what we have here is a situation in which someone is saying "look, I've been here before a few times already, and I think you're overreacting" and another who is shrugging that advice off.

I don't propose to have greater knowledge in this subject than you. I merely wish to point out that perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are "jumping the gun", and that in a few years, there is a distinct possibility that your claims that the game is rapidly "dying" might reflect rather negatively on you and how people view your posts in the future. This, too, I have seen happen to multiple people in this forum.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/17/2013 0:37:49)

quote:

and most of our userbase at present would agree that it's actually producing better content now than it ever did before.

im present and if u asked me about it, id have to say they are not producing better content than they ever have before.

thats seems like a bit of an exaggeration.
all thats really been new is the egg hunts type quest chain. which got pretty annoying since u couldn't get any drops from NPC battles.
the new items have been terrible IMO, and the best series or saga (w/e they call it these days) has been the winter events (frysteland)
the cool thing about these winter events is that they have actual winter looking items, and they dont go for the whole Christmas theme like they do in AQW.



Lord Barrius -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/17/2013 0:49:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goldslayer1

im present and if u asked me about it, id have to say they are not producing better content than they ever have before.
I suggest you go back and read the statement in question. Because it refers to AQ, not ED.

Bold for emphasis.
quote:

I have personally observed these exact same claims being leveled against the game that I'm working on. Said game is still running, and most of our userbase at present would agree that it's actually producing better content now than it ever did before.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Epic Duel's Decline (5/17/2013 0:54:47)

also about the game declining, i dont have any real numbers since they devs wont (and probably cant) give those out.
but from my own experience, many players are starting to leave. im talking level cap varium players.
and yes i have noticed a drop in players.

i was on yesterday at reset and there was only like 350 players online.
back in early delta there used to be easily 600-800 at resets. and yes i am talking weekdays.

all i can say is, all of the ED friends and faction-mates are quitting and only few remain.
and it does seem to me like there are less players now than there used to be before.

quote:

I suggest you go back and read the statement in question. Because it refers to AQ, not ED.

whoops, i confused that with u working on the ED forums.



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