RE: posion robot (Full Version)

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santonik -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 18:48:34)

Few fix option this poison core.


1. option

1 focus 0 round poison affect
2 focus 1 round poison affect
3 focus 2 round poison affect
4 focus 3 round poison affect
5 focus 4 round poison affect

Maybe game engine not support this suggestion.
This good point is tech abusers cannot use good poison damage so affectiviness.
Bad side is 0-4 focus penalty. Less poison damage round/s.
Good side what better focus than better poison.

2. option

Make poison effect much weaker.

broplem is 3damage+(4 rouns 3poison damage) what is minimum. CORRECT THIS IF IM WRONG. Im not 100% sure how this work.(minimum damage)
I dont know can be poison damage doing under 3 damage per round.

3. option

Same damage what now but this cost xx energy. ( i think 10 energy cost because this core can use multiple times)

This can be use many times but cost energy.


4. option.

Nothing changes

5.option.

Only cooldown rise 4 to 5 or 6. That means poison is hardened to spam. Cooldown rising 5 or 6. What is better 5 or 6?

6.option

Poison core can be use only 1 time.

7.option.

3 rounds warmup. Then can be use normally

8. option
Generator can nullify bot poison.But cant nullify tacticalmerc and both hunters poison.


9. option.
Yours suggestion/s.



I give only few idea. Some is old and some is new idea/s.

ingnore,support or make yours suggestion. remember comment good and bad.


I support option 1 but that is maybe game engine broplem. Can some1 tell me can this make.((option 1) I mean is that imbosible to make this game. Im only curious.




ReinVI -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 18:57:02)

so? the only time that reduction will be noticable is during the effect of malf which again costs energy to use as well as being one of the two classes with malf and I highly doubt it's a very large decrease especially on a focus build. and as your example 2 less? ok 6 damage for 4 turns is still 24 unreduced damage that goes through the heaviest of armors. I never said I exactly agree with making this bots special one time use only but I don't think it's fair that it can be used infinitely in a battle.



Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 18:58:46)

Ok

1 This would make the bot less usable to everyone and no focus builds wouldn't be able to use the bot at all so not a good idea.

2 didn't get this one could you explain that?

3 No since if this went into play then it would cause issues down the line possibly causing other free cores to cost energy.

4 nice idea

5 four turns if a cool down increase is needed to put it on par with field medic

6 Only if heal doesn't affect it would this even be a possible solution

7 Nope since tank builds would get a kick out of this nerf. This would give them three turns to wear you down before you can even use this core

8 neutral on this one




Ranloth -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 19:02:20)

Don't nerf something that doesn't need to be nerfed. Poison is great on tanks and useless against glass cannons, whilst other Bots with effects (that are once per battle) will do much more damage vs. glass cannons and less versus tanks (just below Poison after 4 turns, assuming it wasn't cleansed).

The difference is, one Bot is viable all the time (effect) whilst the other is useful on tanks or semi-tanks. Lastly, Focus nerf has bumped the Poison down and back then, it was 1-2 DpT stronger which is up to 8 damage difference compared to now.



Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 19:16:07)

@ reinvi

my point was that unlike with the others you can nerf the damage that the poison does with malf and/or omega override (as long as tech is the highest stat which in most cases is with tech tanks using the posion) plus omega override can be used by all. And your point about it going though the heaviest of armors isn't even valid since all poisons go through armors not just the bot's poison.

@ trans

The builds that are most popular now are glass cannons and tanks and thanks to the HP nerf you can't be real tanky and have high HP. So I am guessing most people who are using tanks builds are having the issues with this.



Ranloth -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 19:23:57)

Well, yeah, having high HP and being able to tank very well would be too much. You can have a balance between the both which is possible for any class - and even more so for those with passive Armors. Poison was designed to be used on players with high defence, tell me it wasn't, I dare you. xD
Who would use Botanical Hazard which deals 3 damage on initial hit and up to 8 DpT when their defences are so low that your attack will easily deal at least 20-30 damage, and more for pure damage skills. That's the flaw of the Bot which other Bots do not have since their damage isn't fixed but depends on your total Robot damage and then % of it (if any), minus the defences.

I do see how the Bot may be troublesome since I use it on my BM and people use it on me, even worse when looping but until it takes full effect, normal Robot will deal more damage and have a different effect which may be much better, such as Yeti's Chomp or IA's Laser attack.



santonik -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 19:25:09)

Mother1@

I trying explain. option2.

Poison effect is weaker than now. This means less damage poison core.


I trying think what is minimum damage that bot poison. It is 3+(4x3=12)=total damage 15 (correct me if im wrong this calculation)
Can be poison damage less than 3 damage per round?
New minimum damage 3 damage+(4x1damage)=total damage 7

Main thing is make weaker poison this bot.







GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/19/2013 23:57:23)

@Mother1
You realize only 2 classes have malf and not everyone has an Omega weapon.



kosmo -> RE: posion robot (6/20/2013 12:22:39)

This bot overclassed all other bots.Ok poison can be cleaned and you dont gain rage when using it and it can t be used on rage turn either, but it s unblockable and and it can be used multiple times with no cost of energy and investing really few points on bot dmg it can easely make 7-8 points each turn, it s so good that it is a perfect use with lower focus too.



GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 22:49:38)

I stick with it needs to be a one time attack. When the bot poison is maxed (32 damage) it can cover almost as much as the regular poison attack maxed (36 damage) but the difference is that the bot is an energy free move while the poison is somewhere in the 30s (33 I think)
It can be done multiple times, this is what makes it overpowered.



Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 23:04:14)

@ gearzheadz

The point I was bring up was that these are still counters to weaken the poison effect. If Rabble didn't make it so poison could be cured with field medic then I would be ok with this idea, however since it can be cured with field medic making the poison one time use would be nerfing it into the ground not balancing the bot.

If it bothers you so much invest in HP and/or field medic.



GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 23:08:29)

@Mother1
Its not fair for the classes that do have poison attacks and its not fair to other players. The only people its fair to is the ones who use this OP bot. That's like me saying that since hunters and TCL have an energy poison attack that they shouldn't be removed by field medic either.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 23:09:46)

The poison bot doesn't deserve a nerf. It is already an ok bot atm.



GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 23:11:14)

It needs to be nerfed where its an invulnerable one time poison.
This way its poison can be significant but not be able to be used in a repeatable way in battle that so many players do.



Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 23:34:34)

@ gearheadz

cause you don't want to use the counters that are available for this bot?

High HP
Malf
Omega override

these are all counters to this bot if you don't want to use them fine that is your choice, however at the same time don't cry about wanting something else nerfed because you don't want to use the counters or counter (if you aren't TM CH, or don't have the omega promo item) available.

If there weren't any counter available for this I could understand, but when there are counters available and you still don't want to use them that is your problem.



GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/21/2013 23:44:33)

@Mother1
Hm, I didn't realize stating valid points to make a bot equal for all uses was considered crying.
There is only 2 of your "counters" that work for all players. The high HP and field medic. Not everyone has malf and not everyone has omega override.
This bot should be made where its poison is invulnerable and a one time use. This can guarantee 32 poison damage to the user of the bot and so that it can't be overused by the user at the same time.
Its a move that completely destroys the purpose of the classes' poison attacks, and can be endlessly spammed, but not endlessly countered.



Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 0:00:42)

@ gearheadz

For those classes who have poison guess what? They still have an advantage because they have 2 different sources of poison not just one so if anything those classes are more deadly with poison since they can use this bot and poison.

And my point is still valid since if this bot was overpowered there would be no counters to it. Overused however is something that is effective, used by a lot of people, but has counters within it. This bot is overused by a build because it is effective however it isn't overpowered.

Invest in more HP and/or higher field medic and poison won't be an issue. Everyone has the power to customize their builds to counter this bot. Poison users are only going use this bot on builds they know they can beat with poison. However at the same time if you don't want to invest in something to counter this you can't expect balance to help you weaken what you are weak against either.



GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 0:14:40)

@Mother1
I never see people carry both poisons they know the poison skill has no use anymore with this bot's free poison which does almost just as much damage, and equal cooldown (correct me on that one if I'm wrong)
And everyone shouldn't have to change their build just to counter a single weapon.



Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 0:33:26)

@ gearheadz

You haven't but I have and it was used on me before so this is how I know this. When used correctly it is very potent Especially when one poison is still on cooldown, but at the same time you have used your field medic.

Also nerfing something so everyone with every build can beat it isn't balancing something but underpowering it since if everything and anything can beat it it is just that. Balance is when some people can beat said build yet others struggle with it. Kind of like rock paper sccissors. In this case high HP build with high field medic, or decent health builds with decent field medic have little trouble, while tank builds with low HP would struggle with it. That is why this bot is balanced if overused and Not in need of a nerf.




GearzHeadz -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 2:36:44)

This isn't a nerf I'm recommending, its an adjustment.



santonik -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 10:49:57)

Last match what i playing. enemy is 5 focus and this poison bot. Yes i have too 5 focus build but not this time i dont use this poison bot. I dont have even change to defence myself.
Why? I cant heal so often what enemy can spam this poison. Other thing this bot poison is very affective all builds even class cannon.Why i think this way. Class cannon is weak defence normally. Poison bot doing always same damage no matter defence. Now i coming why this is affective class cannon too.
Class cannon is few hard hit move if enemy can counter this enemy gain few extra rounds this is key factor and this explain why this poison bot work against class cannon.


I test this all options. Attack and defence side. I noticed this. Poison bot win mostly. And i know why. Poison affect damage is too high. 5 focus 3-10+4x8=39-46damage.
3 focus and tech abusers can spam too whit 3-5+4x6=27-29 damage. Spam basic idea is using every time this poison when this is possible.

I test same 4-5 focus builds too this poison bot and other bot too. And i noticed poison is too affective. I test golden yeti, i test pyro fly, i test Bunny bot, i test infernal bot, i test poison bot.

Poison bot is best bot now. Beacuse that kill tanks and others builds too. Even that poison can nullify. Spam make this bot number 1 Why? Because enemy cant heal so often. heal cost energy. Poison bot not cost energy at all. Suggestion. Generator can nullify this poison bot poison but no others poisons.

This game dosent have bot builds what can make same damage what this poison bot can doing. Some poison bot builds can doing about 2/3 all damage. Sound odd to me but this happens to me last battle. I cant counter 5 time this poison ;(....
2 times i can counter this somehow but if enemy doing over 2 times. Every damage coming full damage this poison.

5 focus poison bot damage 39-46 vs others bot I think you know winner. Others bot can doing much less damage. Only infernal bot can do 1 time high damage whit rage. about 40-50 depends opponent defence. others bot 30-40 whit rage. Poison bot doing whit out rage 39-46 damage ???

So poison bot can spammed.It is over power damage. very hard counter. Sometimes imbosible.
What if
1.---generator can nullify this poison bot poison.generator no affect other poison.
2.---Poison damage is too high now. And can be spam this mean damage must nerf. (drop max poison damage. Make better balance to others bots.)
3.---This is new suggestion 3 rounds warm up and 5 cooldown can prevent over using this bot.
4.---Make minimum poison damage 1 not 3 anymore. Non focus player can use this now exploit to damage.
5.---make this poison 1 time using. this time only heal can nullify this.
6.---Assault bot can Nullify 65% poison.
I ask few player why they using poison bot. Almoust every player say it is awesome. Spammable and damage is normally anwer too.

Personally i want this poison bot fix somehow. 1,2,4 and 6 suggestion together is maybe good. I have another option too 1.4 and 5 suggestion together. This is last option 1,3 and 6 suggestion together. Im not angry if poison bot changes another way. I dont care how this poison bot fix happens but this must been happens. Game balance need this fix.




Ranloth -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 10:57:40)

#1 +5 HP heal and +25 EP, Poison rendered useless. So fair.
#2 Focus was already nerfed, the DoT went down..
#3 No. Why warm up in the first place? It's not IA. Higher cooldown? It's 4 turns due to Heal. Bump that up and you should bump the Heal as well.
#4 Minimum damage for everything is 3. I don't see how 3 damage is even exploited... :|
#5 Once per battle and countered? No. I don't see a 100% efficient coutner for all the other Bots with special abilities.
#6 Suggested before, it's a nice buff to Assault Bot as well.

Don't fix something that doesn't need to be fixed. It's strong on tanks, that's the whole point! Poison is meant to be efficient on tanks! Use it on a Support build with 140 HP and 10-15 Def/Res, then I'll tell you whether dealing 3 damage and 6-8 DpT is worth it over your weapon/skill dealing at least triple or quadruple of that. On the other hand, IA is useful on anyone. Likewise with Yeti. Azrael and Assault depend on enemy's build but since the effect isn't always useful then it has a lower purchase price.

No. Botanical Hazard is not the best Bot. It's debatable which one is best. IA is once per battle but high damage makes it good. Poison is countered and takes some time to take full effect which means it won't be as good as IA, depending on the situation. Hazard is useless on glass-cannons whilst all the other Bots are useful since they have effect and high damage whilst Poison is to be used against high defences and takes time for its effect to be better. That's what the Bots are supposed to do. They are useful in different situation, one more than the other.



santonik -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 11:31:03)

@Trans
I can beat this poison bot mostly enemy. Even class cannons. Same build whit others bots and i cant beat them whit out luck.

Yes i know you are wise. But are you think overall damage? Poison bot is number 1 this only minus is this need few round. Almoust every others bot can using 1 time special. Normally that special is not high damage. Gamma and poison can spammed endless.

What i think this 140 hp class cannon it is small defence still poison bot make much damage to him even more what i can hit strike. Normally strike doing about 30-35 damage. bot doing 30-40. Poison bot doing even more 3-10+4x8=39-46damage. Im play 5 focus this time.

Poison bot no need real tactic. Only need spammed bot poison. Other bot need real tactic. Even gamma bot. I believing this poison bot must fix.




Mother1 -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 11:38:05)

@ santonik

Just because a group of people are weak against the ability because it is there bane build (which is suppose to be the case) doesn't mean we "Fix" the bot so anyone can beat it. That isn't balance in the sense. In this game you are suppose to struggle against some builds and items because they are your bane build/item. The fact that this is happening to some people and not others proves that this bot is balanced.

In case you haven't noticed the only people I see getting high poison damage with this bot are people who spam tech and/or are focus 5. Everyone can't use this bot effectively like that. The real problem is not the bot itself but the fact that the build itself is overused.

Also Santonik it doesn't work on glass cannons becuase they do high damage to make the match go fast so their is no time for the poison to do it's job, where as with tanks they take their time which is why poison is so effective since it needs that.

Fixing this bot will only help out tanks builds since there will be one less effective way to get damage through all that armor.



Ranloth -> RE: posion robot (6/22/2013 11:43:11)

quote:

Poison bot no need real tactic. Only need spammed bot poison. Other bot need real tactic. Even gamma bot. I believing this poison bot must fix.

Ah, that's right. Using Poison to deal 3 damage and then 6-8 DpT is very useful when you're about to die and are looking for one-hit kill but afraid it'll miss and unblockable attack is weak. Spammed and no tactic? You're looking at IA - stalling and raging. Gamma and strategy? More like versatile attack and no limit on the Energy attack at cost of no bonus damage.

If you struggle with it, raise your HP and lower your defence. You cannot have a build that counters everything, it will have some sort of flaw. Being in-between tank and glass cannon makes the Bot semi-useful, depending when it's being used.



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