RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/11/2017 1:26:36)

@Verly:
quote:

Heart has this built in already. It does more damage the less health you have.
As for cooldowns on rotations, don't forget the double and triple attacks. They're quite strong on Rage DragonLord.
I intentionally nuked the defensive rotations from orbit, but I'll take a look later next week

Thanks for the reply. I'll also try to look more into the class if I can find a proper rotation.
Maybe lower the cool down of offensive skills since defensive skills have higher cool down?



Solanaceae -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/11/2017 16:56:27)

I've been thinking about the damage rotation for RDL, and this is as big of a damage burst over 10 turns as I can come up with:

Fire Dragon Spirit (175% + 200% DoT) -> Darkness Dragon Spirit (0%) -> Dragon Soul (735%) -> Dragon Heart (600%-1200% depending on HP) -> DragonEye (450%) -> Dragon Bite (200%) -> Rush (300%) -> Fire Dragon Spirit (175% + 120% DoT) -> Dragon Bite (200%) -> Rush (300%), for a total of 3455%-4055%, or 345.5%-405.5% per turn. Not bad at all, though still noticeably behind the top offensive classes. However, RDL also has extremely bursty healing (instant 20% HP and 30% MP, spammable every battle) and largely retains the defensive skills that made regular DL so godly at tanking (though most have been nerfed a bit for balance). This is my new favorite class! I'll definitely be using it for a while.



LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/11/2017 17:01:41)

@Solanaceae:
Which bosses are you testing RDL on?



Solanaceae -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/11/2017 17:12:20)

I've mostly been gathering damage numbers, testing PDL (whose passive is a bit weaker than it should be by around 15%), and doing regular questing. I killed The Hidebehind, tangled with Hard Mode Extreme Tomix before getting bored and leaving, and killed Hard Mode Extreme Wargoth.



LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/11/2017 17:32:54)

I'm currently testing on the bosses in Dragongrasp's Training Exhibition on Hard Mode (haven't yet tried Extreme mode or Meltface mode)
so far, my rotation is:
Scale>Soul>Eye>Light>Bite>Rush>Earth/Stun>Fire>Bite>Rush>Scale>Soul>Heart (Not sure what's the total percentage is though)
It can whittle deal around 5k damage at level 85. But, I can't still loop it unless I used Bash instead of Earth probably. Most bosses have some resistance to immobility so it's a gamble.
However if the boss has around 8k HP or high defenses, RDL will struggle. At least based on my experience.



eddyydde -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/12/2017 2:31:42)

I think people are understating the value of Dragonlord's Rage. It seems that the current consensus is that it struggles against tanky bosses but is better during quests, but I think the best part of Dragonlord's Rage is that you can switch it off between battles, making Dragonlord's ability to do quests vastly better. Just use RDL for the early parts of the quest and when you get to the boss, switch to PDL(assuming you have it).



Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/12/2017 4:33:24)

@eddyydde

can you change trinkets midquest? i'm pretty sure that's not actually a thing you can do. you can at least change them BEFORE the quest, so you will always have the right skillset for the quest you go on, if you have both.



Zeldax -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/12/2017 4:37:40)

You can change trinkets mid-quest. You can't change it mid-battle though.



Baron Dante -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/12/2017 6:10:26)

Well, this is certainly something I'm curious to play around with, but I guess can throw some thoughts here in general about PDL... from my viewpoint, which is of course going to be about challenge fight applications. (And as such, any issues I might have with the things are not necessarily things that matter, with balance not being considered for hard more and extreme and all that)

Patience is really nice, since the one time I actually took the time to use DL on a lengthy battle, it sure was extremely lengthy. Due to DL having such good defenses, it wasn't exactly hard either. In these cases, PDL (even when it was 1%) would greatly cut down on the length of a fight like that. Of course, there is one specific issue with this: It doesn't really make DL any better at dealing with these fights. It makes it faster, but not stronger. It'd be different if we were talking about a battle where DL would be in danger of losing though. In that case, speeding the fight up could reduce the risk of losing, but the other side of the coin is that you're giving up a trinket, that could potentially make that risk a zero again.
At the end of the day, the issue with Patience is that it's actual uses from the viewpoint of someone VERY patient are actually very few. DL shines with it's defenses, so it doesn't need to do things fast. If the defenses aren't enough, you don't want more attack, you want more defense.
One potential use for Patience is that the extra damage could outplay healing bosses, but with various challenge stuff going on, the healing numbers are completely insane, and turning a "100" to a "200" isn't going to cut there. From recent memory, there's like, ONE boss that didn't have scaling healing, and Patience would be helpful there.

Now, I know I just said that challenge shenanigans are not included in balance, and that still holds true, but you know what would make Patience a lot more worthwhile? Give it something to directly combat healing. I know that kind of goes against the idea of "patience", since after all, healing means you need more patience during casual play, but at the same time, it actually means the patience will pay off even against ridiculous healers. In theory, if PDL could increase the opponent's healing resistance while increasing it's own damage output, that would still work off of the patience angle.
[Note: This is absolutely dumb, and should probably not be a thing, but I really want it, so... :P]

I can't really say much about RDL, since I'd have to give it a more proper look first. I like the idea that it allows people not too into defensive gameplay use DL though.



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/12/2017 22:42:38)

Dragon's Rage has its benefits but there are also flaws with it. It makes dragonlord more powerful but can't do too well in long fights because of the somewhat long cooldowns. Dragonlord didn't have this problem when this artifact wasn't around. The -25 bonus from the light dragon spirit skill is useless against any monster that has high bonus already. I think it should be increased a bit. Anywhere from 35 to 45. The DoT from the fire dragon spirit skill seems to be rather low but maybe that's because I'm not using an INT build. Having a DoT of around 40 isn't too impressive. Maybe instead of a DoT, the skill can "melt" an opponent's defenses, making it easier to land a hit. The heal could use some adjusting as well. Without the rage artifact, DL heals a total of 35% over a few turns. Perhaps RDL can get something like that too. 20% initial heal and then 2 turns of 5 or 10% healing. Maybe it's too much to expect this power with all the defenses DL had before. But if that happens, Dragonlord will be so amazing. Not that it's bad now.



FriendOfAFriend -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/12/2017 22:46:00)

Since I love defensive classes, I think I'll give PDL a shot. Dunno if I can get used to it after loving Pyro so much, but i'll try!



ArchNero -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 1:30:25)

I think RDL is alright. It doesn't do too well in dragged out fights. But I kinda expected to be that way. Since it's like riftwalker in a way where they both dish out a lot of burst damage in the beginning of fights. I personally didn't have too much expectations, I wasn't expecting RDL to be a great vs all bosses in all situations kind of class.

It wasn't too much of a struggle with most bosses unless you plan on taking RDL on hard mode challenges than I wouldn't really recommend it unless you like the challenge of course, but IMO PDL would fare better in that regard.

RDL is great, I do plan on using DL a bit more often now. I don't think buffs are necessary, like buffing the blind ability is like counter productive against what RDL is used for, "Dragon's Rage, however, is for those players who don't even want to think about defense". And because of that verly pretty much has nuked the defensive skills, they're still usable just not as good prior to equipping.



Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 1:35:57)

@archnero yeah, i've decided to temporarily switch my main from master soulweaver to dragonlord until the side character i designated to be the dragonlord can afford the artifacts.



VJ -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 2:46:28)

here is a quick question
my Play style when it comes to anything outside of my Death knight tends to be a balance of defense and offense would these fit that play style?

I ask because it seems these two items will be one or the other which makes me have to think if I really want to use them.



Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 3:07:26)

@vj

the two actually are interchangeable. so you can own both, and equip one or the other depending on the fight you're going into.




Fire alandry -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 5:38:32)

RDL is amazing. I've played with it during the last days, and this is very similiar to togslayer (my current class), but with few benefits: a strong multy attack, immobility resiatence reduce, and more spamable skills (dragonbite and the triple).
An interesting trick: lower your HP by using drgon Soul against the first few monsters, and then you can do an amazing outburst against a strong monster: darkness>soul>heart. If you need more health in the middle of the quest, you can just remove the artifact and use the regular heal. Worked wonderful in the new primal skill quests.

I must say, I've dreamed for ages that we'll get an artifact like this (I even thought exactly how it'll change the skills, CD and so on.. but the staff did it even better). DL has beautiful animation, and this artifact is perfect for people like me- I love the art but hate the defensive style, mainly because I don't have a lot of time to play so when I do play I prefer quick battles.
So, thank you Verly! You're amazing!



ArchNero -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 6:09:25)

If there's something I'd like to see be changed for RDL although it probably would make RDL too good. Would be like giving ice dragon, fire dragon, light dragon and energy dragon an elemental debuff, so for example ice dragon will inflict a -25 ice debuff and the other elemental skills would give a similar debuff. I wouldn't know honestly how long should it last though, maybe 3 or 6 turns.

It's just an idea that I thought would be cool.



HwarangxDxArcher -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 6:22:27)

@Above : Seems like a good idea to me, make it 3 turns and it weren't overpowered at all, although, I'm already quite satisfied with the current RDL, it's fun to play, and quite challenging against tough bosses.



Solanaceae -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 13:15:56)

@Aura Knight:

quote:

The -25 bonus from the light dragon spirit skill is useless against any monster that has high bonus already.

Well, it honestly depends on what you mean by high Bonus. Against enemies with 20-30 Bonus, it's certainly not worthless given that most players at level 85 have at least 40 M/P/M. DL also has 10 M/P/M instead of 5, so all blinds and shields are a bit stronger than they seem.

quote:

The DoT from the fire dragon spirit skill seems to be rather low but maybe that's because I'm not using an INT build.

The DoT is unaffected by INT; it does 40% of your weapon damage per turn for 5 turns. This means that Fire Dragon Spirit eventually does 375% damage, or 575% with Stan the ScanOrb (though DL DoTs, unlike enTropy or Cryptic, are not buffed by your STR/INT/DEX). I'd argue that your proposed change (reducing enemy's defense) is a bit less useful given the enormous amount of Bonus a level 85 character has and the relative scarcity of enemies that shield.



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 14:32:18)

The reason I think the blind is useless is that there may be certain monsters that have more than 25 to their bonus so even if they get a -25 for 3 turns, their bonus could still be a positive number. Maybe they will be weakened a bit but it probably won't be enough.

As for the DoT from fire dragon spirit, I was not aware that was how it worked. Doesn't seem awful but because the damage I'm seeing from it is low I thought it was weak or useless. My idea to have the skill melt armor would be similar to a skill dragonslayer has. If defenses can be put in the negatives it'll be easier to land hits on a monster. Since Rage Dragonlord wants to end fights quickly, such a ability would help with that.

Of course this isn't something I put too much thought into so my idea could be completely dumb. I like dragonlord just fine. And as I think I mentioned before if I want to use a more defensive dragonlord I can just refrain from equipping the rage artifact.



Solanaceae -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 16:07:33)

If you have as much Bonus as the enemy has defense (1:1 ratio for M/P/M, 1:2 ratio for P/D/B), then you have the same exact chance to hit an enemy as you would if the enemy had -500 defense (which is 99% because of the unavoidable chance to roll a critical miss). Pretty much every quest mob/boss has single or low double digit defenses. In contrast, I have 51 Bonus without even aiming for it. It's usually better to have the DoT for that potential 400% weapon damage.

The reason I'm arguing against changing Fire Dragon Spirit is because the DoT comprises a surprisingly high amount of RDL's damage. It just seems low because it's spread out across 5 turns, but with Stan the ScanOrb, FDS beats out an unboosted DragonEye, and has a significantly shorter cooldown to boot. In slightly prolonged battles (something like 8k+ HP), I find myself constantly falling back to FDS when everything else is on cooldown. Removing the DoT would really hurt both short-term and long-term DPT because it's easily the most spammable damage move in RDL's arsenal.



Pisaster -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/13/2017 18:11:22)

Definitely like Baron Dante's idea, maybe something like increase enemy's health resist by 1-2% each time you use a defensive ability, so it's not too powerful and encourages using defensive moves



Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/15/2017 9:43:11)

is it just me, or did PDL get nerfed back to 1% growth per turn?



Sharkslayer -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/15/2017 13:11:49)

@^ It's just you, still 2%/turn



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread (6/15/2017 13:33:21)

If you clear your cache, male dragonlord should be fully updated again. just a bit of mix ups. Sorry abotu that!



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