2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/29/2013 19:23:43)

So lately I've been seeing some players use a newer method of dealing with the poison spores effect. Here are the 2 methods I've seen so far:

1. Heal when it's convenient and either dispel the poison or let it continue until it ends because it simply was a waste of energy to heal at that point

2. Heal the turn right after poison spores is placed, normally resulting in the field medic only recovering 10-ish HP

Here's what I think of these methods (Based off of speculation, these are completely opinion that are supported by facts):

1. This method is more energy-efficient but can leave holes open in your endgame defense because right after you dispel the first poison effect the second one comes shortly after. This is typically best performed by classes with limited energy such as BMs and BHs, from what I can tell.

2. This method is an entire waste of health/energy, but can keep you stable throughout a large portion of the fight because it gives you time to dispel the second poison spores in the mid-end game. While you do lose a large portion of HP/energy based off of what level your field medic is, it can make it a lot easier to deal with midgame rage combos stacked with poison when you're in the halfway-health status. Since this method can be used for a more stable and safer route but wastes energy, it's best performed by classes which gain instantly gain a lot of energy quickly, and can possibly be used by classes with weaker energy regaining properties. Merc is easily the best user of this tactic, but TM can also use it too because of the large amount of energy assim returns along with reroute. TLM and CH can also use this tactic too since the poison goes through their tank properties, but their limited energy regain may make it tricky later in the fight.

Have you seen the 2nd method described used before? What's your opinion on these different tactics? Which one do you think is the most effective given certain classes?



lionblades -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/29/2013 19:35:41)

the way I deal with poison is with very high hp
a poison user will only take maybe 1/20 of my hp
in 4 turns make poison basically useless



Mother1 -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/29/2013 20:38:10)

@ exploding

I have seen it done before, but the thing is a lot of people don't like healing early because they believe they will need it down the line as well as it being a waste of energy. Poison users know this and take advantage of that. Most poison users I see (with the exception of casters) can't do much damage and since I have mid high health I can afford to do this. However since most players that aren't glass cannons have such low health they can't make use of this and it hurt them more. But the funny thing is that poison is the most lethal against these kinds of builds (Low HP and tanks)

However I have also seen this done in 2 vs 2.

Someone applies poison to one player, if the partner can they will heal out the poison before it takes effect on the person. When this is done the poison is made worthless. So in all honestly while poison is strong for 1 vs 1 in 2 vs 2 thanks to it being able to be healed out in this situation it is made worthless.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/29/2013 22:02:41)

@Mother1: I have 75 HP and am a focus merc tank, and I've tried both methods. Healing on the first turn can be very useful if poisoned, but I can't exactly distinguish which one is better. It works for me though since I'm a merc and static smash pretty much gives me back all the energy I consumed to use field medic. It might also help that my field medic is a low level (3), and thus I don't lose out on much if I use it on the first turn. I haven't tried this tactic out in 2v2 yet, though.



kosmo -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/29/2013 22:56:12)

The second method makes no sense to me.



Mother1 -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/29/2013 23:04:34)

@ exploding

I have played in two vs two and I have seen this happen to me and my partner twice. He used the poison bot on the person who just passed, his partner healed him, and boom the poison was made worthless.

Most people upset with this bot are using being owned by it in 1 vs 1, and when I brought up this point in a thread in the balance section. Person even said they didn't care if the bot was useless in 2 vs 2 as long as it is made "balanced" for 1 vs 1.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 0:10:58)

@Mother1: It can still be a pain if both opponents are using the poison bot in 2v2, but that doesn't happen too often, so it isn't as much as a problem. I would agree with many people in saying it's OP in 1v1 though because its cumulative damage is massive and the fact that it's repeatable without energy cost.

@kosmo: Because field medic removes poison instantly. The point of doing that is so that the second time you get poisoned, you can almost instantly use field medic again to remove the effects and render the poison bot useless the 2nd time.



ansh0 -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 1:42:04)

What are you supposed to do when your opponent uses poison free of charge for the 4th time?




Mother1 -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 1:47:20)

@ Ansh0

you actually had a match where someone used poison the four times in a row on you? [8|]



Jekyll -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 3:03:23)

^I have experienced that too. Needless to say, I couldn't hold out past the 4th poison, and lost.

I'm a TM with 37-45 DEF and 20-24+10 RES, my opponent was the typical TLM tank. You know, he heals, I heal, every round we do less than 10 damage except for rage. On top of that, he could poison me 4 times, while I could only bite of his ranged weapons once. Some bot specials need to be limited to X uses per battle, but not necessarily once only.

My tactic for ordinary (ie. not insane tanks) users of this poison? Kill them before they kill you. Luck will play a part, especially if I can block 5-6 times and stun at least once.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:03:32)

^

Honestly I'm not quite sure how you win most opponents with that kind of build o.0

The Bio Borg sounds perfect for that build, though. You should have bought it. Gives you a far better chance against other uses of that bot.



Jekyll -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:05:19)

^When you say Bio Borg, do you mean the one that can reflect damage?



ReinVI -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:07:18)

I think it needs to be limited to twice per fight... it's a free poison that on builds that use it ( always tech abuse ) it's dpt is about 75% as effective as a maxed out poison nade/ poison strike 100% less cost... this leaves them open to using energy on heals etc etc which makes it even worse to try and fight them... at least limiting it to two times makes it more strategic.



Jekyll -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:10:13)

^Exactly. Most of the time, the poison tends to deal 6-8 damage per turn, without activating Reroute. It's around the power of a Level 5-6 Poison skill, so yes, it definitely needs a limit.



The Incredible Hulk -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:19:15)

quote:

I think it needs to be limited to twice per fight... it's a free poison that on builds that use it ( always tech abuse ) it's dpt is about 75% as effective as a maxed out poison nade/ poison strike 100% less cost... this leaves them open to using energy on heals etc etc which makes it even worse to try and fight them... at least limiting it to two times makes it more strategic.


Well if that happens; I think healing should be limited to twice per fight also.



ReinVI -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:22:35)

maybe it should? that would stop tank tactical mercs from heal looping the crap out of people...



The Incredible Hulk -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:27:22)

Well Poison is getting the blame alot. Maybe heal should get the blame also. Heal makes the game longer. Why not limit that so we can have shorter games?



ReinVI -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 5:33:23)

heals are needed if people couldn't heal it would be who could out DpT the other quicker so you would see even MORE high hp spammers and super tanks



Necromantres -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 7:52:54)

i recommend the 2 because the field medic will get out of cooldown sooner so you could actualy cure the next poison easily...as a casters going with the first method it's suicide...



Mother1 -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 8:37:59)

@ reinvi

Supertanks abuse heal a lot more then poison users. Especially when you hit them for so little unless you get lucky, and they when they are about to die they use high heal. If poison (which is a counter to this build) gets limited Heal which is a counter for this should be limited also since they are opposites now due to field medic cancelling it out.



The Incredible Hulk -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 9:17:55)

That goes for assimilation & EMP and atom smash and static smash. They should be limited too by 2 turns if poison gets nerfed.
And also I think malfunction and smoke should be limited also to 2 turns.



Frostblitz -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 10:13:25)

The botanical hazards are pretty powerful!



Exploding Penguin -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 11:31:45)

@Frostblitz: I would label them the strongest bot in-game right now.

@Hulk: Shorter fights are boring, simply said. This is mainly because you can pretty much know exactly what your opponent's going to do and can do nothing to stop it because your heal isn't strong enough, and then you'll have to hope for luck unless you've devised an extremely strong counter to that specific build type. Longer fights provide more strategy because the situation changes the longer the fight drags out, whereas shorter fights typically consist of people who have a set plan of what attacks to use in what order no matter what their opponent does.

One thing I recommended was making it so that if poison spores lasts all 4 turns without being dispelled, then you can't use it again, but if it was disrupted before it reached its end after the 4 turns, then you can use it again until it naturally wears off.

Anyways, that was somewhat off-topic, I'm still interested in seeing what others think and have to say about the 2 methods of dealing with the bot.



ansh0 -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 13:14:39)

Just make it limited to twice a battle.



The Incredible Hulk -> RE: 2 methods of dealing with botanical hazards (6/30/2013 16:33:03)

quote:

This is mainly because you can pretty much know exactly what your opponent's going to do and can do nothing to stop it because your heal isn't strong enough, and then you'll have to hope for luck unless you've devised an extremely strong counter to that specific build type. Longer fights provide more strategy because the situation changes the longer the fight drags out, whereas shorter fights typically consist of people who have a set plan of what attacks to use in what order no matter what their opponent does.


So if they do nerf this bot; they will have to hope for luck for that specific build type if it is limited.



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