RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 6:07:42)

@Mystical Warrior: That's a good idea actually. Although I remember Ash saying somewhere in this thread that the reason Bacon was chosen is because Bacon is DF's variation of Element X. That they serve similar purposes I'm pretty sure he meant. But yeah, non elemental would be the better choice.

quote:

To keep to the feel of the original effect in AQ. There it did "Element X" which is our version of Bacon.



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 7:18:05)

@lordk0z. as shadows morgenstern said, the element of the guardian dragon was originally element X, not harm, harm came a few years ago, ash probably wanted to retain the feel of the AQ of old, since guardian was made at that time, besides, i think it would give less damage if it used a element that less enemies resisted, and i like bonus damage



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 7:22:37)

@Brasca123 It won't do less damage, the main point of the breath attack of Guardian Dragon was that no monster can resist it, meaning also that no monster is weak against it. So setting the element of the Guardian Dragon to Non-Element which I'm sure no monster has no resistance to would make alot of sense, not to mention that Element X doesn't exist in AQ anymore, so changing the element to Non-Elemental which is equivalent to Harm damage in AQ would make more sense now than using Bacon.

Here's a quote from the Void and Harm guide in the AQ forums guide section:
quote:

What happened to Element X?
Element X has essentially been replaced with Harm, as it was a term that referred to any damage that did not align with any of the basic 8 elements. To quote Zephyros: "Element X is a myth."


Since Bacon is kinda considered an element in DF given that our Dragon can also be elementized to Bacon, Guardian Dragon's breath attack should be changed to Non-Elemental (or whichever you call the one used in Grand Master Sword). Since Harm isn't aligned with the basic elements of Lore.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 7:27:39)

@Mystical Warrior: I think what Braska(High Summoner) meant by it loosing power was that by giving it an element that nearly nothing has any resistance to at all it might see a slight damage reduction. Or maybe a higher cost? I won't claim to know what formulae Ash uses when balancing.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 7:33:53)

@Shadows Morgenstern I don't think giving it Non-Element will result to getting a damage nerf. Given that you don't even have any advantage to any monster at all since you won't be exploiting weaknesses, in fact you would be doing less if the monster has "All" resistance assuming that "All" also affects Non-Element.

My point still stands that Bacon which is kinda one of the basic elements in DF, and knowing that the breath attack of Guardian Dragon can't be resisted by any monster and referring to my previous quote that the element of Guardian Dragon isn't aligned to the basic elements of Lore, so Non-Element is the more sensible choice. Again you aren't getting stronger with Non-Element since you can't exploit weakness or anything, if anything, the class already loses on of its most potent not to mention trademark skill if you are against monsters that has
resistance to Bacon.

Also, its not like DF has the "always useful" penalty like the one used in AQ since the two games uses a vastly different balance standards



Snakezarr -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 7:39:50)

I kinda like bacon as it makes me think its not the horrible burning that kills them its the stench of the morning breath :P But I can see why it being void element would help although some things still resist that element, the most none resisted I can think is Good.



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 8:04:33)

@mystical warrior.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadows Morgenstern

@Mystical Warrior: I think what Braska(High Summoner) meant by it loosing power was that by giving it an element that nearly nothing has any resistance to at all it might see a slight damage reduction. Or maybe a higher cost? I won't claim to know what formulae Ash uses when balancing.

yep, that's what i meant, i said that because IIRC ash said earlier in this thread that the elemental locked darkness skill would be weaker if it was not darkness (since darkness is a element lots of enemies can resist), though i might be wrong on that

also, the interesting thing about being bacon elementalized is that it's a standard ele locked skill, i think guardian isn't a really serious class, it's more for the fun of using crazy ele lock skills, it even has a PWD like skill after all, so i think having the GD in bacon just adds more to the fun of using the class, since it just isn't reliable against basically anything

though non-elemental would not be bad either, i prefer bacon, but either one is fine i guess



Ash -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 8:29:38)

quote:

Also, its not like DF has the "always useful" penalty like the one used in AQ since the two games uses a vastly different balance standards

Who said that? Not the person enforcing standards in classes. We do indeed have one. It's why Necro's passive takes longer and DeathKnight deals less damage than it should on several skills, AND why Nightbane's Fury deals less damage. Just because I don't make a big deal of it doesn't mean it's not counted. Bacon is still considered a non-standard element because there are very few monsters that resist it.

quote:

Here's a quote from the Void and Harm guide in the AQ forums guide section:

Here's another one.
quote:

Are there any monsters that Harm or Void doesn't deal 100% damage to?
Yes, there are:

Absolix: 0% Harm and Void
Baby Void Dragon: -200% Harm and Void
Carnax 1-on-1: 0% Harm and Void
Epheel: 20% Harm and Void
Female Void Dragon: -200% Harm and Void
Female Void Dragon Wyrm: -200% Harm and Void
Nightbane (Levels 25, 60, 140, 145): 20% Void
Nightbane (Level 500 Void Version): 1% Harm and Void
Sea Fiend: 40% Harm and Void
The Elder Void Wyrm, Dragon: -200% Harm and Void
The'Galin: 0% Void Only
Void Dragon: -200% Harm and Void
Void Golem: 0% Harm and -100% Void
Werepyre: 3% Void
WolfWing: 3% Void
Xerxes: 70% Void

You mean there are monsters that resist and are weak to Harm just like there are some that resist bacon in DF? D: I picked the element for a reason. It's one of the signature fun things that came out of DF. "You can kill things with BACON!?!?!?!" It also takes less of a penalty than something like None, which while usable, isn't as notable. The other element that could be used is ??? but more monsters resist that.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 9:14:06)

@Ash well those monsters are those that are special cases since those monsters are a category of their own when it comes to their background or origins, although I agree on the sentiment that it is a great novelty that you can kill things with the Bacon element.



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 10:00:15)

@above. aside from some rose members, that from what i've seen on other posts (i'm not in book 3 yet) resist bacon, there are only monsters with a special category of their own that actually resist bacon, like, food monsters for example, i can't really think of any others (though i'm pretty sure there are others), so bacon is, as ash said, a non standard element as well

and of course ALL HAIL BACON!!! smell my morning breath monsters, bacon flavoured breath MUAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!



LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 10:53:13)

I'll stick with the Guardian Dragon being Bacon element. AQ has only about 9 elements, while DF can potentially have thrice as many. Plus Bacon fits with DF and it has its own Prime Orb too. So we're reaching a compromise here with AQ and DF. And I'm also hoping for different quips from the character when using rage. But it's just a little quirk of mine [:)]



Ash -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 10:58:31)

I tried adding it in but it slowed the skill WAY down as you first had to say your line and then move through and actually attempt the attack. (It'd last around as long as the Guardian Dragon skill.) I was trying to avoid making any more skills that long so I pulled it out before I rolled the newest version.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:18:34)

That's sad to hear, although if you did do that, it will kinda remind of how the old warrior skill before that somehow will work that way.

Any comment though on my suggestion on the animation for Guardian Rage skill though? Wherein the animation will go like: 12 hits of the alternating up down slashes, 13th hit will be the shield push animation (similar to the Awethur/Nightbane Fury animation) and then the 14th hit will be the jumping shield crash animation that is used now, it will really give the Guardian that feel of actually using his shield in battle other than blocking with it. (Not to mention cooler :3 if its not too much trouble anyway, still appreciate the great effort you guys put in for the class revamp and answering to our comments )



DD.CLYDESTER -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:32:26)

I just want to ask a question, ash, will the new guardian blades have a bonuses to all kinds of attack? (STR, INT, DEX) or will it be just for str like the old ones?



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:34:42)

@DD Clydester The new Guardian Blades (the ones with new art) should have static damage range and stats that are up-to-date. The better question will be, is, will the old Guardian Blades have its stats updated to reflect current standards?



DD.CLYDESTER -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:36:50)

quote:

@DD Clydester The new Guardian Blades (the ones with new art) should have static damage range and stats that are up-to-date. The better question will be, is, will the old Guardian Blades have its stats updated to reflect current standards?


Oooooh, okay sooo I suppose it will be fine then ^_^



Ash -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:39:52)

It'll be a scythe, just like the old one got converted to so it'll take its bonus damage from any of your primary stats. I'll also look at properly stating the old one when I do the new one.



LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:55:43)

Well that's okay. I wonder when will the armor go live. By the way, are the matching capes and helm color-customizable?



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 11:58:19)

@LouisCyphere It should go live as soon as its testing phase is done, so almost instantly after the preview is removed from the Book of Lore, Also the capes and helms are CC also



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 12:21:02)

For those who are interested I used a colour code finder to get the closest colours for the example shown in the BoL and the previews Cronix posted.

Base=#80849F

Trim=#E3B13E

I think this is right anyway, might just be me but the base looks a little off.



DD.CLYDESTER -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 12:34:34)

Come to think of it, for some reason, the new guardian armor's colours are a little brighter than the original colors of our base classes.



Zork Knight -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 15:03:46)

@Shadows: Oh, I'm very interested. Thanks you very much [:)]



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 16:05:26)

@Zork: Happy to help out![:)]



GreenGuy23 -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 20:21:13)

Was Rage changed again? I keep getting a jump shield smash at the end instead of the shield bash.



DD.CLYDESTER -> RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread (5/13/2015 20:41:51)

quote:

@Greenguy:Was Rage changed again? I keep getting a jump shield smash at the end instead of the shield bash.

Yes, yes it was. It was reverted back to it's shield smash due to requests[:D]



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