RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 14:28:21)

Hmm. There might be a naming issue. I'll check.

Yep, that's what it was. Relog/cache clear to pick up the fix.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 16:11:04)

did you post the dragonslayer skills?

Edit: Can't wait for dk too. I wonder what cruelty are you planning for his set lv update (and what is going to happen to the actual set).



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 16:20:29)

quote:

Missed this one. We kinda do but it involves making the skill think your main stat is the stat in question and it isn't all that wonderful in terms of making it work right.

Ah, cause DL was like that if I recall correctly or was, been a long time since that one was brought up since it had 4 magi-skills and 2/3 of the game didn't use it so they did something to the stat calculation is what we were told back then. None the less still loving the class can't wait to see Death Knight.



Kingman93 -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 17:09:41)

Another great revamp Ash!!! I love it, great offense and plenty of healing. The passive is very thematic and although it doesn't do much at first, it does start to stack up in long fights and compliments the other 3 healing skills well.



Sflamin -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 22:09:24)

Would the passive heal triggers ROARR attack from monsters like ManaCrest or Baron Valtrith?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 22:17:45)

It's a DoT effect so yes. Sorry. =/



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 22:25:00)

Doesn't Crest check for her specific DOT, or is it like Dragonlord where it can apply DOTs but any will trigger it?



BludClaw -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 22:34:40)

@ErosionSeeker: Having tested it before, I can safely say any DoT or HoT will trigger Crest's MURDERBLAST.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 22:44:54)

I do have a way now to do a check for a specific effect so I'll eventually get to updating Crest and Valtrith, and any others that check for a specific effect, to only trigger on their own. It's something I'm going to use in the DL update for one of its skills as well, not Heart that will still trigger on any DoT but one of the others.



Aj Gost -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 22:54:50)

Hey Ash, I love the Paladin's new skill set. It's devastatingly good versus undead and great in general, I am a little concerned that the healing might be a little too good for a T2 class so i'd like to do some testing for it's healing potential versus that of the Pyromancer and see if my suspicions are anything of substance. I can't seem to find a page with the Paladin's New Skill's effects outlined entirely, could you possibly direct me to something like that so I can have as correct calculations as possible? I really appreciate that you give us DA holders a chance to test a bit before full release.

Also, could you explain the formula for the passive HOT a bit for me? I'm having trouble putting together the formula.

As always, thanks for your work on a great revamp!



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 23:04:45)

That's because it's not out yet. I'll post it tomorrow after I've gotten some rest. The passive formula I already posted two pages back.

quote:

Passive heal = ((max HP)*(Pally Charge*.015)*.1)


So at the start of battle, charge 1, you'd heal.
((2000)*(1*.015)*.1) = 3 HP.
After 20 attacks, since you only gain a charge per attack, you'd heal 60 HP.

Also in this case it's apples vs. oranges if you're trying to compare Pyro and Pally. Healing is never going to be equal across classes unless they have the exact same heals. Pyro has a few tricks that Pally doesn't, mainly a full HP/MP heal and a 300% damage HP heal and 100% damage MP heal skill. Combined with the higher damage that Pyro has it comes out on top in most cases as it doesn't need to almost completely gimp itself in terms of mana in order to heal fully. While Pally can heal a small amount of mana that Rebirth skill is pretty hard to top.



Aj Gost -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 23:18:44)

Thanks for the quick reply!

I understand what you're saying in terms of the classes being very different and thusly hard to compare but i'd still like to get some hard numbers. I've been using Pally and Pyro all day today(v undead and not) and I find that against most bosses and standard enemies with 600+hp Im ending battles with full health and mp much more often than with pyro. I simply want to see if perhaps the healing ability may be a bit too comparable to the likes of Pyro a t3 class, especially when the former has a passive heal over the latter which can amount to some massive healing over the course of the battle(at 60 a turn the passive heals only 22hp less than Pyro's Malcifer, a 10 turn cooldown, using a lvl 60 Necrotic Sword of Doom).

My suspicion is that it's not likely the actual amount healed needs to be decreased but that the mana regen on pally may be a bit too powerful(or have to short a cooldown) to the point where the "complete gimping" ends up less of a major factor. All speculation right now though of course. I understand that hard numbers are necessary with these matters.

I will try and focus on the classes' healing abilities mostly since I believe they end up close in terms of power offensively with pyro coming out on top easily when bringing in elemental weaknesses and pally dominating when against undead.

I'll be using my level 62 with 96END(90stat and 6 from lvl 60 Necrotic Sword)
And a 121Wis (115 stat and 6 from necro sword of doom).

Thanks for explaining the HOT formula btw.



Zeldax -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 23:33:22)

I really like how Paladin turned out. Its pretty good at killing monsters and even more on undead. Thanks Ash!

*Though I'm probably the only one who will miss the old Paladin Art. Honestly, one of my favorite class designs when I was still a lower level*

EDIT: Suggestion. How about make it like enTropy? Make the class stronger when using a Light Weapon maybe?



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 6:38:07)

^Ash said that some day the old class designs may be reintroduced back into the game for those who prefer them. and may be they will go together with the old skills as well. no promises though.
if/when that happens ill be all nostalgic about dk. im quite excited to see the new art of paladin since right now its even close to my fav than ever before. but one thing is bothering me a little. zeal was 3X70 dmg and now its 3*60 and on the left side. so it has been nerfed a little. im sure that this is because of all the other offensive and defensive buffs so its ok.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 9:01:17)

quote:

EDIT: Suggestion. How about make it like enTropy? Make the class stronger when using a Light Weapon maybe?

Either you get the undead trigger or you get stronger while using light weapons. Can't have both.

Effects are split by type
- against Regular Enemies
- against Undead

Attack
120% damage
140% damage

1. Barrier of Sanctuary
+140 Melee/Pierce for 2 turns


2. Crusading Strike
- 170% damage
- 190% damage

3. Angelic Blessing
- 100% damage / Heals 7% max HP
- 110% damage / Heals 7% max HP

4. Swords of Eternity
Multi
130% damage to all
150% damage to all

5. Holy Storm
- 125% damage and 3 turn stun
- 140% damage and 3 turn stun

6. Light of Dawn
Light Locked
- 3 hits of 60% damage each, -25 bonus / 4 turns
- 3 hits of 75% damage, -50 bonus / 4 turns

7. Prismatic Strike
- 110% damage, -20 boost / -25 to light
- 120% damage, -40 boost / -50 to light

8. Greater Heal
Heals 15% max HP and removes DoT and other nerfs

9. Holy Wrath
Light locked
- 200% damage, 100% chance to crit
- 300% damage, 100% chance to crit

10. Phoenix Song
Light Locked
- 180% damage
- 240% damage

11. Cor Lucem
Good Locked
- 160% damage, +25% chance to crit
- 180% damage, +50% chance to crit

12. Mana Boost
Heals 11% Max mana.

13. Aura of Light
- 110% damage, 25 Boost / 40 Darkness
- 120% damage, 25 Boost / 40 Darkness

14. Seal of Salvation
Heals 100% max HP but costs all remaining mana.

Passive effect
Every attack causes an internal counter to go up by one. Only skills built into the class count for this, potions and trinkets do not.
Passive heal = ((max HP)*(Pally Charge*.015)*.1) ROUNDED

At the start of any battle where an action is performed (except Potion): "Your strength of spirit gives you an Inner Light that will heal you!"
Subsequent rounds: "Your Inner Light grows!"
Round 20 and higher: "Your Inner Light is a beacon of your power!"



Zeldax -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 9:27:01)

Oh nevermind then. Guess it would be better if it had an undead trigger since Paladin is an undead killing class.



M31K -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 10:15:25)

quote:

8. Greater Heal
Heals 15% max HP and removes DoT and other nerfs
I don't knew it. Since it removes Dots and Nerfs, should it consume more mana per Dot and nerf, to keep more balance? Like one removing Dot or nerf cost around 20 mana. It really don't consume too much mana for heal and removing all effects.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 10:41:22)

Why would you be paying per effect, and at 20 mana per effect no less? Soulweaver purges all effects for 15 MP. Instead of paying for it in MP I dropped the heal from 20% to 15%. If I didn't then the skill would've cost 50 mana. I could make it 18% heal and the purge for 40 MP though since that makes the heal a bit better but also doesn't bump up the MP cost too much.



M31K -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 10:45:48)

But Purge skill from Soulweaver don't heal you, it is kinda why it consume too little mana.
EDIT: What about 5 mana?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 11:03:59)

Purging all effects costs 15 MP or a lesser amount of the effect if it's being placed with another effect. There isn't a "pay per removal" type deal, it's an all or none. Trying to change that NOW means I have to go back and redo math and figure out what it should cost per effect and then go change the other classes that already are in place with it.

Where are you getting loaded up on effects in the first place? Most likely it's a boss, and you'll have one or two at a time to deal with. Unless we design a boss that stacks you with 20 different effects paying per effect hurts your mana costs more than just dealing with a flat cost.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 12:17:56)

the first turn after the increased darkness resistance skill, you still take normal damage. Used it on impossible doomcrawler and it hit me with 650 damage...then next turn hit 62.

also the passive is wrong. At maxed out passive, the numbers above my player show 64s but my hp increases by 61s...



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 12:31:30)

Should be fixed. Also the passive ROUNDS. If you don't have a perfectly flat amount of health, like 2000 in the above example, you won't heal exactly the perfect amount so you'll need to factor that in. I figured that should be obvious...



Edorath -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 13:50:04)

Ash, you did it again. I'm honestly impressed by the rework you did with Pally. I'm gonna save it whenever it comes out (unless DK comes first) as my base class.

Also can i suggest something for the Artifact? How about making the healing skill heal the whole party when you are using the Artifact?



DarkLore -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 14:14:08)

Given the fact most monsters attack guests these days that's a really good idea.



Darius -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/22/2014 14:53:28)

This is a really stellar class sweep! I admit, I skipped testing some of the others, but all the posts I've read about them have been glowing reviews. This one, however, I've tested, and it truly is as great as it's being touted to be! I can't wait to see Tomix's glorious art replace the old ugly skin from the way-too-early days of DF. Paladin is now a force to be reckoned with! Evil beware! We have waffles!9.0 Paladin revamp!



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