RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Trollok!!! -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 17:42:01)

Which is why it would be better to identify a problem and deal with that alone; in this case, we could simply raise Iron Hide's cost. Besides, imposing limitations on Card Customization kind of defeats its customizing aspect.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 17:54:13)

quote:

CC needs to be improved. Most of the balance issues regarding cards like Ironhide and Shatter are due to CC allowing them to be spammed.

I'm going to put this one-liner that no one obviously took the time to read.

The Sage also gave a good detailed answer of what my one-liner pretty much entails.

quote:

While that might sound like a good thing, it can also mean that some cards you can only equip 1 of and i'm sure a lot of you would not be happy abut it.

Seriously, I have to say that who ever is dissatisfied about not being able to spam cards is just being plain ridiculous with no sight of strategic gameplay.

@above: Your claim about limitations destroying the customization aspect of CC is a flawed one. It actually enhances it through enhancing gameplay. We have rules for a reason; to prevent chaos. Games have rules in order to make the gameplay fun and enjoyable and fair through reducing cheating. Limits and rules for CC can be used interchangeably if you wish. But the point still stands that the reason why cards are being seen as OP is because CC allows them to be played at an OP level. This is why we need limitations on CC. Unless your CC build was constructed for spamming, there should still be enough builds available to utilize.



Trollok!!! -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 18:35:17)

^Imposing a limitation would simply be a band-aid fix to balance issues. Balance should be done on a card-by-card basis not based on how "spammable" a move could potentially become. Limiting Iron Hide or Shatter in CC to one is not the same as limiting say a Life Drain to one. Iron Hide was considered a problem before CC was even implemented so dealing with CC won't fix Iron Hide. All CC did was exacerbate the problem; Iron Hide apparently was just never adjusted properly to begin with.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 18:51:36)

@Trollok: You are missing the point. Iron Hide already got a nerf and it is still getting heat for being OP. I can assure you that if it gets nerfed again, it will still be labeled as OP. If not, someone will still have something to complain about the next card. Playing this game pre-CC was a lot different. I could proudly say I had the skill to overcome Iron Hide pre-nerfed. Although it was a powerful card, it wasn't as abundant and was much easier to predict and counter. It didn't have CC to amplify its strengths. Simply saying that we should fix balance issues on a card-by-card basis is only a huge waste of time. That isn't the problem, CC is.

I would like to give an example from Yugioh. You can consider your deck a highly customizable one. There is an initial limit of 3 cards per deck. Some cards have limitations to them, either 2 per deck, 1 per deck or 0 per deck (banned). The most powerful cards are either limited to 1 or are banned. We can think of IH as such a card. Cards are not re-worked in order to adjust to a proper level of strengths, they are simply limited. Other card games are like that as well. IMO, I do not believe OS, being a card game, should be any different.

EDIT: I would also like to mention that IH is a purely defensive card. If you can effectively predict and counter it, its only harm would be to its user. It isn't OP at all. Stop wasting your DoT and attacks when one is up and play defensive. If you can't do this, then your character is lacking defensive capability. The trick is to stall while they are stalling in order to put yourself on equal footing. That is pretty much what you can do when an IH is up. Now you might be saying that they have so many IH's that you can't afford to pull of such a battling style. Well the reason to this problem is CC. Yet another reason why it should be limited cause the spamming ability not only allows players to equip more powerful cards, it reduces your ability to effectively predict and counter.



Trollok!!! -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 19:14:28)

Difference is in Yu-Gi-Oh, you build your deck from scratch. If Card Customization had been what it was originally intended to be, I would fully back making CC limited as people would just run 5-card decks with some combo of Corruption, Neutralize, and Iron Hides. Not to mention, you can run out of cards and automatically lose. Oversoul is completely different.

Also, say for instance we follow the trend of suggestion characters having their proposed decks. Someone proposes a Neutral character that has a 14-card deck that already contains 3 or 4 Iron Hides. I would say the problem hasn't really been fixed then has it?



DidYouKnowThat -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 19:20:57)

Ironhide's power and cost should be left alone.

The way of getting it however could be changed. Maybe some cards could be buyable only, or they could ONLY be found somewhere, or something.

Or lower the chance of getting an Ironhide from CC.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 19:21:26)

@Trollok: I see your point about Yugioh deck builds. OS does have a base deck made for your characters. However, the point is still valid that adding many copies of certain cards through our current CC system provides false imbalances attributed to those cards. Also you can't say that a problem of such nature could arise via suggestion characters. That is discretion on Nulgath's part to release characters with imbalanced base decks.

@above: While I admire the creativity. I'm afraid it would only benefit SG players and IHs would still run rampant. We need CC restrictions.



Trollok!!! -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 19:30:59)

Ah but releasing "imbalanced" base decks is counter to balancing is it not?

In any case, I can agree to Card Customization limits as long as its on a card-to-card basis. Again, using more than one CC Iron Hide/Shatter isn't the same as using more than one CC pierce card. What if I just wanted to go searching in the North for some characters and carried a ton of Blood Rages to quickly dispatch them Ice characters...whoops, I can't because instead of patching the card(s) with the problem, ALL of CC would have been affected instead.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 19:38:43)

@Trollok: But of course. Limitations should only be on a card-to-card basis. Not every card deserves to be limited.

@below: I suppose so xD



Trollok!!! -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 19:40:41)

Well then it looks like we are in agreement after all this time then? [8|]

...


Alright then! [:D]



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 20:44:16)

As i had said before the problem with Iron Hide is the people abusing it with CC, the card itself is not OPed (any character can deal over 1k damage in 1 turn), the over use of the card makes it OPed not the card itself. There are some games that use a meta, a sort of agreed set of rules made by the community, or a sort of "house rules" as some people call it. People use these rules as a way to keep the games fair and balanced as the rules change along with the game. For example, can set a limit as to the number of Iron Hides you can use in CC to say 2 or 3. This way CC can stay the way it is and PvP can still be fair and balanced.



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 20:50:01)

It's devastating to DoTs. Not every character can deal over 1000 damage every turn, if they have a lot of DoTs instead of pure offense. Most characters can break through iron hide a few times, but if a character uses mainly DoTs, they're just completely blocked by iron hide. It's a problem when one card completely counters an entire type of card.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 20:51:55)

3 poisons = 900 damage per turn, how is that devastating to DoTs?

Also DoTs completely counter Reflect cards like Counter Attack and Void Reflect, and HoT cards just to let you know



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 20:53:11)

Because how much energy do you have to break through iron hide after applying 3 poisons? And half of those will end up being useless on the turns you charge. Breaking through iron hide once is not going to win you the match, especially since shadow characters have no charging card and they will be completely outmatched for the rest of the fight in terms of offense and defense.

@above
And attacks counter shields then. HoTs just help to increase your health, DoTs don't cancel them out in the way iron hide cancels out DoTs. It's the difference between less of a heal and doing no damage. A valid point about the counters, but it's much harder for a character to kill their opponent with just DoTs and no regular attacks.



Asuka -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:01:27)

Okay, let's look at some facts here

If someone does want to use 5 iron hides in cc in deck, they won't be doing much attacking. Stack those DoTs and even if small, you will still do damage.
It's irrational to be acting like it will be possible to do so much damage WITH so many Iron Hides

When really in the odds, you wont.

And lets see, 19 energy charge max, you gain 5 energy back via turn end.
100-500 damage is very possible, fact even more if you have more energy if you DoTs break the iron hide.

Iron Hide isn't really extremely OP as this thread is making it out to be.




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:06:41)

No one needs 5 CC iron hides if they already have 2 in the base deck. CCing Corruption in addition to some iron hides would handle doing a lot of damage while taking little to no damage by spamming iron hides. The problem with DoT based characters is that they don't have a lot of attack cards. Like Necrosis and Resonance, if their DoTs almost break through iron hide, they'll only be able to do under 1000 damage, then be low on energy (they would already be low on energy if their DoTs almost broke through iron hide). Neutralize fixes that problem for neutral characters, while iron hide only costing 5 energy and being available in CC lets them use iron hide every turn.



DidYouKnowThat -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:25:26)

Can't you just take that precious time to set up Counters or something .. . . Back yourself up with your own defenses. And as soon as that Iron Hide comes down, that's your chance to nuke. :P

*cough* Maybe Nulgath Shadow *cough*






Asuka -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:26:13)

If it's the case of energy lacking, Resonance has Energize. That can easily keep you up to date with your power if used correctly and keep on your target. There are ways for you to keep up Energy through Iron Hide. One turn of storm even breaks iron hide in half.




TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:28:05)

Resonance - 3 electric arcs - 2 storms
Play all 3 Arcs for 12 mana that is 600 damage per turn play Energize along with it and you spent 2 mana to deal 600 damage per turn for 6 turns
Draw - another 600 damage
Play 2 Storms = 1,600 damage for the next 2 turns

How is Iron Hide OPed?



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:30:49)

@DYKT
I'm not talking about neutral/shadow v.s. neutral here, I'm considering the whole game. Anyway, neutral characters still have the most powerful DoT to bypass counters.

@Asuka
Yes, but Resonance is a special case; no other energy character is like that. Other characters that rely on DoTs such as fire and shadow do not have any energy charging card. In fact, Neutral characters have the strongest DoT and best energy regenerating card. And I should remind you that beatable does not mean balanced. Comparing it to any other shield card, it is grossly overpowered.

@Sage
I'm talking about how iron hide can be used every turn. First off you barely ever get 3 electric arcs, energize, and then 2 storms, and secondly all of the electric arc damage would be blocked by iron hide and you would have a very small amount of attack cards to break through iron hide with. And after the 2 storms and attacking, you're back to low energy and electric arc doing 0 damage, just bringing the iron hide shield to 400 defense per turn until electric arc runs out. You can't guarantee getting energize every turn, and even if you did, electric arcs would often do 0 damage without storm.



DidYouKnowThat -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:42:59)

@Jop: But E-Arcs last so long! :/

Furthermore, I wasn't meaning Shadow vs. Neutral.

Nully Shadow was just an example of high-charging characters with big defense and big nukes. You see, while Ironhide is in play, the Nulgath Shadow can just use Void Reflect, and on the turn the

Ironhide runs out, KILL'EM with that Shadow Fire. :P (Along with normal Shields)



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:44:12)

I just want to point out, both Fire's AND Shadow's main source of damage is not from DoTs but from direct damage cards, like Fireball, Sacrifice, the pierce spell whose name i cant remember right now, and other HP related attack cards for Shadow. Energy's main focus is hitting fast and often with the use of attack boosting cards and combos. Saying an element specializes in a specific attack type when none of them do (type and style are 2 separate things) can lead into these arguments about a single card being OPed when it really is not.



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:47:12)

@DYKT
Yeah, last so long doing 0 damage. Keep in mind that iron hide can be active every turn of the battle, and half of electric arc is rendered useless when I'm charging. Not including the times I have my hand and there's one, two, or no attack cards, meaning it's rendered useless for even more turns. Iron hide spamming is the bane of DoTs. I have had 5 electric arcs on players before, only to let me hit it a few times, then it all ran out, only doing what I could get through with storm and attacks which is around 3000 maybe, at level 20.

@Sage
It is though. Those characters rely on a mix of DoTs and direct attacks, even more so on the DoTs because they are cheaper and they need energy efficient cards because they have no energy charging cards. The direct attacks are so expensive that they cannot win just with them, and having 1000 damage blocked every time they attack adds a lot of health to the opponent, more than ice/earth, which can often make the neutral characters victorious.



Vertigo Beast -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:47:39)

@DYKT

However thats just 1 example of a very good character that, with the correct cards drawn, can counter the card easily.
That doesn't change the fact that Iron Hide is still a very very good way to block DoT's.

I don't think the card itself is really OP, but seeing a limit to the card and possibly others for PvP would be nice, as a character that is untouchable due to large amounts of a specific card CC isn't really fun for anyone, and games are, as I remember, supposed to be fun.



DidYouKnowThat -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (1/27/2014 21:48:51)

For only 4 energy, 6 turns is awesome. . .

And dude, don't cram all your DoT's in one move. . . -.-

Spread them out like how the Ironhide user does it. :P

And just saying, not using a DoT yet makes him put that Ironhide(s) on hold, and if he does have THAT much, he's forced to put some of them into play or else face the consequences of not doing anything at all,
which you can take into advantage by using Insta-damage hits.



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