RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (9/23/2013 14:19:20)

When the CC burn was first released its damage value was wrong and was fixed on the following Monday.



Megadragonknight -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (9/23/2013 21:52:39)

I wasn't aware about it since I was away from OS during the time light CC was released onwards. Anyway, glad that the CC burn wasn't imbalanced.



The Death Angel -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 16:14:56)

quote:

Yes, you can weigh the strength of a card based on other cards, this is actually the core idea behind "balance." But I think you're talking about context, which I also explained. What makes an ice character "amazing(ly) defensive"? Is it the ice walls and defends? Because those are present in Earth as well. Freeze? It's a 2-turn stun for 7, but with an Earth-equivalent, petrify, 6 for a one turn stun and 500 damage. You are correct in the fact that ice lacks healing, but like you said, it's already "amazing(ly) defensive."

70%? Where'd you get that from? The number of cards, the combinations, what? Iron hide is an insane stalling card, making "perfect scenario(s)" unnecessary; as long as you can stall, you're going to get the card you want sooner rather than later. Neutralize gives you energy for a card, which ice also lacks. Combine these together with a "double-shatter" equivalent of corruption that does 500 every turn, "pressure", of 10 for 2000, and you get a sense of how balanced shatter is. You can use neutralize as soon as it appears or save it for corruption, which, as I have stated, will come eventually with the constant iron hides.

"Counterplay"? You might as well use attack cards then, as 6 for 800 DoT over 4 turns could be considered inferior to 8 for 1000 instant attack damage. 200 more each, per energy spent.

"Crowd control"? Since when did OS gain a multi-player mode? Earth is my basis on which I want to buff frostbite. Mountain strike 6 for 1000 damage in 2 turns, coupled with petrify which stuns for one turn. You might consider multiplying the turns by two due to freeze for ice. Even then, what I'm suggesting isn't 1000 over four turns, it's over 5 turns, 200 each. Still 6 for 1000 but taking freeze into account, turning it into a 5 turn, low damage, DoT. I think you're under the impression that the longer the DoT is, the more powerful it is.

I suggested something, you discussed it, and I obliged. We can continue this in the balance thread if you want.


There is much of what I've said, which you sort of misunderstood, but I'll continue this discussion for the sake of discussing I suppose.

I totally agree that Earth can do almost everything that Ice can do, and even more. I'd actually go ahead and say it here in this thread that Earth is currently the strongest element by a huge margin if you ask me.
I'd probaly want Earth to be tuned down a bit, but thats something for me to talk about another day.
Balance isn't defined by how strong each card is to another card. If we want every card to be as good as another, why not just rename them all Poison and give them the same values? Problem is, every element in this game is supposed to be different
and is supposed to capitalise on different aspects, like defensive play, offensive play, using crowd control(I'll get to my usage of the word Crowd Control later in the post) to defeat the enemy, whether it be by healing, shields, stunning, all out 5 hit combos etc.

The 70% is something I pulled out of my "rear" (please don't ban me). It wasn't supposed to be understood as 70% chance of you drawing the cards,
more like 70% chance of you winning your battle, IF you drew those cards, as it is a very dangerous and strong combination.
Btw there are 11 characters with Neutralize, all of which doesn't actually have corruption in their own deck. That sort of intrigues me, because you can get corruption from Custom Cards and I honestly believe Neutralize and Corruption
in the same deck is a tad too strong, so by just looking at all characters decks, you can pretty much conclude that even the Devs would indirectly agree.

By counterplay, I didn't mean the card. I meant the counterplay as in, there isn't much you can do against that type of card combination/character.

To me Crowd Control isn't a word that defines a multi-player mode. I normally use crowd control to describe stuff like Stuns, slows, silences etc. I guess me playing a ton of games prior to OS has made me think of the word in the wrong context.
Frostbite is in a perfectly fine place to me. If Ice chars had strong dots + strong defensive, I could imagine the horror. A 5 round lasting DoT might as well last forever against most characters, as 5 rounds is a lot of rounds to have a DoT rolling, though Electric Arc does that.
I'd like to think of Electricity element to be a DoT/power up element. Focuses on making your attacks strong, or Dotting up your enemy with everlasting DoTs and really strong ones too. The Jop pretty much displayed to me how great Electricity element is at Dotting you to death.
Trust me, it was a painful processs.

To sorta sum it up for the Tldr.

Ice char works with Frostbite, making frostbite stronger makes it work too great with frostbite.
I try to correct misunderstandings etc.



Kiazz -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 17:59:41)

First of all... I heard you the first time, you know, for earth. Oh, but balance can be weighed by individual cards. It's just that OS isn't a cosmetically oriented game, unlike AQW. The devs want to making cards both different AND balanced is kinda what they're going for. Using your example, poison with the same value for all elements, would make tanky characters even more powerful, due to how easily it stacks. 6+6+6. My point is, other cards make or break the character, and that it is possible for you to compare the card with other cards if you take other card of the deck into consideration. Like petrify+ms and freeze+shatter or corruption+neutralize etc. Based on all of this, not just individual cards, I came to my conclusion. Like I said earlier, comparing cards is the basis of balance.

The devs would indirectly agree on.. what? If corruption was indeed as powerful as you have said, to agree, the devs wouldn't hqve put it into CC. Like surge, crush, sacrifice, freeze, petrify, etc.

From what context did you think I was talking about counter attack? I thought that it was an obvious part of a pvp game.

"Slows/silences" what game is this? Like I said, I think you're mistaken in your belief that there longer a DoT is, the more powerful it is. The values don't change, and of anything, the more turns it has the weaker it is due to the less chance of getting down before being murdered. Like how fire whirl requires one more charge due to its reduction of a turn compared to poison. Arc costs 4 for 1200 compared to frost bite's 6 for 800 however, still 200 per turn even less efficient than 12 for 1500 instant attack. . And yet, shatter is 5 for 1000 after 4 turns. Making it 6 for 1000 over 5 turns makes only a small amount of difference due to the fact that shatter would still be more ideal with the buffed frost bite. More incentive, for balance, that's all. It's u-p currently.



The Death Angel -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 18:48:56)

Let's start off by ignoring the useless talk at the start.
Yes, tanky characters would be extremely powerful with a DoT of same value as poison, but thats exactly why I feel 2+2+2+2 on a tanky character is alright. It's not as strong as Freeze + shatter and aforementioned combinations, but it doesn't have to be.
Not everything has to be of equal value, as much as you'd think that would be against the term balance.

When you mention it being weaker than just 2 regular attacks, thats true. Why not just use 2 regular attack cards instead of dotting up, I can see the logic in that. But thats not always how the battle goes. You discard Frostbite and hope to get better
cards, but that doesn't always happen. It's a concious decision you have to make. Would I use my Frostbite for 6 charges (which I feel like is 1 charge too much, for the record), or discard it in the hopes of getting a better card.
If anything I would change the charge amount of Shatter and Frostbite, to give more incentive for using Frostbite.
There are other cards that would suffer of not actually having the same value as other cards. Shadow fire is a card I feel like on paper looks cool, 1k dmg for 8 charges? Why not. But my problem with it, is that you can't combo with it.
It does the same damage and costs the same if you did 2x attack cards for 500 dmg each. So where is the incentive to use it really? There has to be done some changes to these cards obviously, but I don't think changing the damage values of the cards
is perhaps the right approach.

Also, if you read my text about Corruption, you'd find
quote:

That sort of intrigues me, because you can get corruption from Custom Cards and I honestly believe Neutralize and Corruption in the same deck is a tad too strong
There are many questionable cards put in CC to be honest, but the devs wouldn't be able to remove them from CC at this point in the game anyways. Corruption to me is a card I'd honestly imagine only legendary characters having. Then again, if they left corruption out of the CC, they'd have to put Neutralize to compensate, and I'm not sure which option would be the best at this point.

When I said slows/silences it was merely an example. You can be passive agressive if you want too, thats ok, but it's not going to help your arguments.



Mritha -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 20:29:01)

I would recommend that you think strongly about your next few posts before you make them. The attitude and snide remarks to each other I am seeing in the most recent posts is not needed and is not welcome. You can either agree to disagree, continue this discussion in a respectful manner to each other, or continue as you are and be disciplined accordingly. Your choice.

~Mritha
OSGD Head Moderator



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 21:45:01)


quote:


If corruption was indeed as powerful as you have said, to agree, the devs wouldn't hqve put it into CC. Like surge, crush, sacrifice, freeze, petrify, etc.


Idk if that's always necessarily a question of power rather than just logistics, like how Surge and Sacrifice would be universal since they cost 0 charge and how Freeze and Petrify would be able to chain stun.

quote:


you can get corruption from Custom Cards and I honestly believe Neutralize and Corruption
in the same deck is a tad too strong, so by just looking at all characters decks, you can pretty much conclude that even the Devs would indirectly agree.


Corruption is definitely a really good card and could well be the most effective DoT out there, but it's CC Iron Hide that puts Neutral over the edge since you can chain it to be nigh-invincible while storing up energy for cards like Corruption. Even with Neutralize, if it weren't for CC Iron Hide then Neutral characters wouldn't have the defensive support for cards like Corruption to be very effective as its bulky energy cost makes it difficult to set up multiple copies early. I think it was a mistake for Iron Hide to be included in CC more than Corruption, but perhaps as other elements see more development they'll be able to close the power gap and we'll see some balance.

I do think some sort of change for Neutralize such as an extra discard or reduced energy gain could help though considering how I still don't see Fresh Start's extra discard cost considering Water as an element to make very much sense since they have more cards that cost less energy so they need hand space more and energy less than Neutral characters.



Kiazz -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 21:50:08)

^Twas waiting for one to show up.
-5 for 800 would be a different buff, which might also work; so you agree that frostbite is not up to par compared to other cards.
-Can you combo with any DoT card for that matter? Shadow fire is instantaneous, unlike the nerfed nature of things after time.
-I was sincerly flummoxed by your use of such terms, as well as unsure about what you mean by "passive aggressive." I merely wanted to know what game you were talking about so as to explain how the said game might differ from OS.

So you agree, frostbite should be buffed.

Edit: Ninja'ed @TFP Logistics and balance go hand in hand, most of the time. The cards I mentioned, like freeze, for example, and as you said, could be potentially gamebreaking if we could have more than one. That being said, I don't rate corruption as game breaking, and neither do the devs, apparently. Therefore it's not too powerful.



Megadragonknight -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/26/2013 23:59:56)

With Ice gaining some of the more powerful cards like Freeze which is very helpful in stunning opponent so they can't defend against the Shatters, also it is helpful at the time when you used Ice Orb as your last resort to end the match. Frostbite maybe consider a slow DoT, but it help to pressurize the opponent as they need to also concern about us attacking them or even to protect themselves against Shatters or even us being froze. Its not necessary to buff Frostbite IMO. If many players do want Frostbite to be buff, I can suggest frostbite deal 200 damage per 5 turn with the cost of 5.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 0:45:07)

quote:


Edit: Ninja'ed @TFP Logistics and balance go hand in hand, most of the time. The cards I mentioned, like freeze, for example, and as you said, could be potentially gamebreaking if we could have more than one. That being said, I don't rate corruption as game breaking, and neither do the devs, apparently. Therefore it's not too powerful.


Right, and as I said, I don't consider Corruption to be the problem but Iron Hide (particularly CC Iron Hide). The devs don't consider that game-breaking either, but just because the devs don't initially consider something game-breaking doesn't mean it's not too powerful. Remember, it was the devs who were responsible for Ice characters with multiple copies of Freeze back in 2012, which I don't think anyone would deny was game-breaking. There are still some balance problems in spite of the devs best efforts, even if they're not as blatant as during the chain Freeze era. That's why we have this thread.



Kiazz -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 2:48:17)

-So, you agree that corruption isn't overpowered.
-Was freeze changed due to the this thread, though, or through the devs' own testing?
-And what are your thoughts on frostbite?

(Using bullet points to save time, phone on hotel Wi-Fi :P)



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 2:52:46)

@Kiazz
Well, this thread wasn't around when freeze was limited to one per deck, but it was either changed through the dev's testing or because of the feedback they got from the beta release thread. I think that Frostbite's energy cost could be moved to 5 or 4.



Kiazz -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 2:59:38)

-Ah, then how would TFP's example apply?
-Frostbite costs 6, surprised? :o



Megadragonknight -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 3:10:02)

-Corruption make a great DoT and its helpful for Neutral characters' offense consider they are very defensive and their offensive cards are heavy costly.

-Freeze is limited to 1 per deck so to prevent any Ice characters from being more OP.

-Frostbite may be one of the slowest DoT, but it provide some pressurize to the opponent as they need to defend themselves against Shatters and attack cards plus Ice Needle which add extra offense to Ice characters since its an unblockable damage.



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 3:12:57)

@Mega
The problem is that it costs 6 energy for 800 damage over 4 turns, whereas Poison costs 6 energy for 1200 damage over 4 turns or Electric Arc costs 4 energy for 1200 damage over 6 turns.



Megadragonknight -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 3:16:19)

@Jop
Oh wait, what am I thinking? :O I am actually mixing both Frostbite and Electric Arc because both of those DoT deal 200 damage per turn.



DidYouKnowThat -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 3:27:30)

Meh. I guess it might be because Ice has Defense, Stun, and Shatter . . . not to mention a nuke Orb. . . .That's what I think is the reason why Frostbite is a 6 Energy card for only 800. . .



Kiazz -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 3:56:43)

-Neutral has iron hide, neutralize, and corruption
-Fire has incinerate, fire whirl, a and half a poison
-Earth has petrify, mountain strike, crush, stone wall, etc.
-Lightning has electric arc, super charge, and energize
-And these are only from the top of my head, basically the inclusion of frostbite is a nerf in any deck, with shatter being the obvious and superior choice, even when taking ice wall and everything else into equation.



Megadragonknight -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 4:34:03)

My only concern is Water which still doesn't have enough great offensive card not to mention not a single DoT card. Every element have a DoT card with the exception of Chaos since none of a chaos character in OS is release yet.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 7:31:47)

Frostbite is not going to change, the reason is, making a defensive element more offensive negates the point of each element having something different. Ice is NOT meant to be a big damage DoT element, that is Shadow and Fire's theme with Fire more focused on spells and Shadow more focused on using HP to attack. Shatter was added to give Ice a little bit more offense but not so much to becomes the same as Fire or Shadow with more defense thereby making Ice stronger then another element. Then Ice got a finisher move that sacks all the shields it has to deal a large amount of damage all at once. For a defensive element, it has enough offense to win fights (just look at Beck's beetle) and still be defensive like it was intended to be.



The Death Angel -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 8:07:37)

I guess DidYouKnowThat pretty much summed up why I thought Frostbite was alright for Ice characters, but I can agree with getting it to 5 or 4, though I feel like making Frostbite cost 4 is pushing it a bit.
The damage is a bit underwhelming for how much it costs, especially seeing as it costs even more than Shatter.

I didn't put much thought into Iron Hide being the biggest offender, but I've experienced losing to a monk due to him using 2 iron hides in a row, while I had 1.4k piercing damage waiting for him.
I probaly would've tried to hit through the Iron Hide if I had known he had 2, but I failed there. Was a great display of how strong Iron Hide can be. It's pretty much 2 rounds in which you are forced to stall
or make a decision that will make or break you.



Kiazz -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 8:44:00)

@sage Has Beck ever actually used frostbite with his ice beetle/cosoma titan? Like I said, I would like to see frostbite becoming another way to use ice, rather than being a card that drags down the deck. Are you sure it would be all that offensive? Adding another 200 to it or taking away a charge seem to be harmless yet beneficial actions. Could you perhaps reconsider, if only for the benefit of characters bereft of shatter or with only frostbite, like erf? Seeing a character like him was the impetus for those suggestion, though it has been bugging me for some time now, in terms of balance.



Megadragonknight -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 9:18:28)

@Sage
I would love that you can consider Water gaining a DoT card. Every element have at least 1 DoT card except for Water which make Water left out.



The Death Angel -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 9:38:56)

A problem with giving Water a DoT could be that Water currently might not be the most offensive element, but it has 1 of the best sustains through heals, which are worth more than shields.
It's a bit of the same with Ice, except most ice characters don't have the sustain like water has except for Xmas Elf, which justifies the use of a semi weak DoT. I'm afraid with Custom Cards, you can get hella sustained with the heals, while dealing fair damage.
Though I find light to be a superior element in respects to a balanced amount of sustain and damage.

I'm not sure I agree with discarding 2 cards for 10 water charges however. As much sustain as water might have, giving up 2 cards for water charges is usually more of a disadvantage.
I don't play a lot of Water characters however, as that sort of playstyle is not quite my cup of tea. It's a very passive way to fight and usually ends up in long and dragged out matches.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (12/27/2013 10:57:05)

quote:


-So, you agree that corruption isn't overpowered.
-Was freeze changed due to the this thread, though, or through the devs' own testing?
-And what are your thoughts on frostbite?


1) Yeah I can agree to that, not by itself at any rate.

2) If the game were balanced perfectly, there'd be nothing to discuss with regards to balance.

3) It's like Catlike Reflexes vs. Corruption. I think Frostbite's pretty useless considering Shatter occupies the same niche and does it so much better and I discard FrostBite on instinct, but I worry about assisting Ice as an element at all when it's already so good. There really wasn't any reason for FrostBite to exist in the first place. That being said, since it does exist I would support a buff to it as there are characters like Erfreirung and Jack Frost that can't avoid it and lag behind other characters when they shouldn't, and those characters that rely more on Shatter wouldn't be much more dangerous than they already are if FrostBite were to do an extra turn's worth of damage.



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