RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Lord Ferno -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/5/2014 19:23:01)

I just beat the shade of when with 6 hp left.... quite impressive for a hybrid....



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/5/2014 19:36:52)

@ MR G W: Lol we were trying to sum up the classes in as few words as possible, not whole paragraphs describing them :P. Of course I could go on and on describing it and end up more accurate, but I wanted a quick summary or epithet.



DarkLore -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 11:01:03)

Well today DK will possibly be fully released. Who's excited to possibly save it as their main class? I am!



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 11:11:16)

I made a promise to myself to not use it until I get to level 80 and equip the DK items. Wearing it for the first time with the full set will be a better accomplishment. [:D]

Oh and I was just wondering, about "life draining skills." Since they are a fixed percentage of hp and cannot crit shouldn't they either heal more or have lower cooldowns/mana costs when compared to an attacking skill? I am not saying that DK has to be changed, I realize the deadline is over, but I am just wondering if things like this are considered when balancing classes. Coming from AQ classic, where they balance every little detail, even lucky strikes/critical hits, I am curious if DF does the same.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 11:58:20)

They're damage/heal over time skills and are balanced as such.

They're not an actual attack but instead status effects.

Please don't quote the post directly above yours. It's considered spam. -David the Wanderer.



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 12:00:03)

So "damage/heal over time skills" are balanced as such. What is the such supposed to mean? Not the answer I was looking for tbh. I actually want an answer from Ash who actually knows what goes on behind the scenes.

And this is my reasoning: A hp heal can be translated to extra turns alive by dividing the heal by average monster damage. And extra turns alive mean more damage. However, if instead of healing, you used a pure damage skill you have a chance to crit and effectively halve the number of turns needed to reach the same damage. Since heals cannot crit, are they given a multiplier to increase them based on a player's average crit rate?



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 12:01:36)

They're treated as being damage over time skills (they cannot critical, they follow weaknesses/resistances in a different way, etc) rather than normal attacks.



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 12:04:06)

exactly damage over time skills and hots are treated similar. But they are horribly unbalanced as of now. Since dots and hots cannot crit, the player actually ends up doing less damage with the same mana cost. Example: a 20 mana cost attack would be better than a 20 mana cost DOT. Of course thats assuming that DF even balances damage to mana, which I seriously doubt.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 12:37:19)

Class skills are not balanced towards our asininely high critical hit chances.

Critical hits are seen as an extra, not as a necessity.



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:17:26)

I never said they had to be balanced around our asininely high crit chances. But even with 20 crit, we would still get more use out of an attack because of the fast that it can crit; even if its rare our average damage goes up.

Level 79! One more level until I can equip deathknight class!

Removed mini-modding comment. ~Ash



Ash -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:33:27)

I'll answer it but from now on things that deal with multiple classes like that need to go in either the all classes discussion thread or a Q&A post. Secondly just because it's not me answering it doesn't mean you can dismiss the answer as wrong, in this case Mr G W is close.

quote:

Oh and I was just wondering, about "life draining skills." Since they are a fixed percentage of hp and cannot crit shouldn't they either heal more or have lower cooldowns/mana costs when compared to an attacking skill?

Life Draining in the case of the HoT/DoT, isn't "life draining" because that's a horrible way to balance an effect. The HoT is balanced based on the Tier of the class and, as Over Time effects are an effect, as a beneficial effect with appropriate penalties for being healing. Healing is no longer going to be tied to damage done as that lets you either get piddly healing or lots of healing if you get a couple crits while using it. It's going to be a % of your max health, as is the case of every heal I've done so far. Healing is incredibly powerful and as such you aren't going to get to gimmick it by getting crits.

No, they shouldn't heal more just because they are a fixed %. Also, no they shouldn't have a lower cooldown or mana cost because of that. Healing is now setup to being a %, you don't get to cheese it to be higher, you don't get to gimmick it to get that little bit extra out. You get x% healing because then I can give it a value, assign a %, assign a valid mana cost, and not have random dart board math.

quote:

But they are horribly unbalanced as of now. Since dots and hots cannot crit, the player actually ends up doing less damage with the same mana cost. Example: a 20 mana cost attack would be better than a 20 mana cost DOT. Of course thats assuming that DF even balances damage to mana, which I seriously doubt.

Oh? I wasn't aware that Crits were even factored into BASE damage calculations. As I said before, everyone needs to get off the "but CRITS...CRITS CRITS CRITS!!!" bandwagon. It's going to be toned back. Stop focusing on Crits or they'll be toned down a lot faster than I had planned. No class that's been revamped has been revamped with the current Crit rate in mind. That is going to be lowered so any "well we Crit a lot right now..." needs to be removed from your discussions until that time. Ignore Crits until I can fix them, they will get fixed and you'll get a better idea of how classes are supposed to operate when you're not basing your entire game around one stat.

Yes Mana costs are determined by the power of the skill. That's why when I ether raise or lower the power of a skill the mana cost goes up or down.



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:43:01)

Ash, when I talked about crits I did not mean 70+ crit or something crazy. Even if you scale back crits, players will still have a little bit and that little bit will make the attack always better than a dot. The only way to balance this is if dots did more damage to make up for being unable to crit. However, they are also unable to miss, so they shouldn't be boosted TOO much.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to dismiss Mr G W. I was just worried that our discussion moved away from DK's skill and was going offtopic so I wanted you to answer and settle it quickly. I'm sorry that we went off topic a bit.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:48:23)

Dots don't account stat damage either, remember that.

However, dots usually do more damage than skills. The dark rite dot is a easy guaranteed 500+ damage AND heal at higher levels. I don't see why this needs to be buffed.

Excluding this one, other dots easily do 200% weapon damage on top of a normal attack. Sure you are not dealing damage all at once and you are not getting critical/stat bonuses, but it is a lot of damage for a single attack.

Other status effects do not get anything off your stats or crit either.



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:52:26)

It definitely needs to be buffed. You spend one turn doing no damage then do 500 damage in a total of 5 turns. Therefore the skill does only 500/6 damage a turn and heals 500/6 hp a turn. You have to factor in hat one turn you wasted doing nothing also. Instead of using the skill, you could have used a massive attack and crit doing much more damage in much less time.


@Ash: Are attacks really balanced around damage and mana? The stun on DK for example allows the player to do 560% damage over its duration (140% stun and 140%*3 for regular attack) for 25 mana while saving the player from alot of damage (effective counts as a heal AND a massive damage skill). Blood tap, on the other hand, costs 30 mana, does light damage, and heals a small amount while allowing the monster to attack and further lower the heal... I think stuns in general are way too good for their mana costs and should cost more. Doomknight's doom spikes have a good mana cost for a stun skill, for example (yes I realize its also a multi, but I am using it just for reference sake).



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:56:47)

You get 500 damage AND healing from a single skill. Just because it doesn't do it all at once it doesn't mean you waste 6 turns. You only lose 1 turn. You can attack just fine the other 5.

Remember that you are guaranteed to deal that much damage. You click it and bam, 500 dmg and heal just like that. Other skills won't even hit anywhere near that high unless you crit.

And unless you are playing doomknight, no single will EVER get you that much damage and healing all at once.



Ash -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 14:59:08)

It doesn't miss, heals you, damages the enemy, and will ignore any elemental resistance besides All (which very few foes in the game have). Yes, it TOTALLY needs a buff. Healing counts for MORE than damage, I can't make that any clearer.

Each attack on its own is paying for itself. A Stun is a stun. It doesn't pay for other attacks, it doesn't pay for being able to combo after it, it pays for stunning your enemy. You pay for each effect, not every other effect on the class that can be combined. If that was the case every skill would cost 70+ mana. How is THAT balanced?

Now, if you want to discuss general class things like healing and damage anymore, take it to the All Classes Discussion thread. Anything else that isn't specifically about DK will be deleted as off topic. Go use the thread that's made for this.



Faerdin -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 15:02:10)

500 damage and healing in five turns is still doing 500 damage and healing 500 Health for the cost of a single turn.

And when talking about balance, Doom Knight is something of an untouchable subject. It isn't balanced. It wasn't meant to be, and that is why there is and only ever will be one Tier 4 Class.

Edit: Ninja'd!

In any case, I'm excited that Death Knight's planned to be implemented today. My hands are getting bruised from smashing my Orb of Saving and telling it to save my Class. :D



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 15:02:29)

pitties:
Most of the new enemies have stun resist. That shouldn't be a valid argument in my opinion (also stuns have large cooldowns to compensate their strengh).
About rite you're saying that you spend 1 turn doing nothing. That's not true, the same turn the skill is used the enemy is getting a 1 turn dot and you are healing a 1 dot at your turn which is probably the same or less damage you took from your enemy "wasting" that turn.



DarkLore -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 15:02:51)

How's the possibility of DK being live Today Ash?



Ash -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 15:03:44)

Fixing a few bugs in other parts of the game. When I'm done I'll make sure everything is ready and make it all live.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 15:04:54)

quote:

How's the possibility of DK being live Today Ash?


The ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つHYPE༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ is real.

*start the countdown*



DarkLore -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 16:14:21)

I'm going to have such DK swag on my character page when its live. LOL!



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 16:14:56)

I would have also, but somehow I'm getting error saving exp halfway to level 80... :/



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 16:19:10)

Because you hit the daily xp cap (3m for 70+ characters)



pitties -> RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread (10/6/2014 16:21:12)

yeah I know. I leveled from 78 halfway to 79 75%. So close yet so far...



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