Stat abusing (Full Version)

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TheRandomGuyYouSee -> Stat abusing (8/21/2013 0:19:08)

You want to balance Epicduel? Take out stat abusing, that's all I have to say.



Ranloth -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 0:33:41)

Explain why. It limits variety and these builds usually are fast kills with poor ratio. You can beat them easily but can lose a fair amount of times too. I don't see HOW you can take it out. Limit the stat cap and you're limiting the diversity and forcing everyone into one build.

If you cannot beat them, revise your build. Balance does NOT account for players' inability to play and using their build. If you lose, that's good. If you lose too much, your build is probably bad against these players. If everyone lose too much against them, then something is wrong with balance.

First step to balancing the game is making it less subjective. This includes no biased statements that aren't backed up with any data or whatsoever and just work in your favour, whilst everyone else may pay the price for it - thanks to you. Also, Charfade has stated clearly: suggestions that are biased will not be even taken into account. If they implement/change something, it should be fair and square for everyone, instead of being in favour of specific group of players.



TheRandomGuyYouSee -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 0:40:53)

Let me make this clear - This is definitely NOT biased. I have at least 5 people in my faction that I ask on a daily basis how much they lose to stat abusers, and it's always a negative value. Way negative. And I've tried every build I can, I swear to god. I could have 40 defense and Mercs with 130 support would still rage with their artillery and always get a crit and do around 50 damage.

Anyway that's not the point, AE needs to find a way to implement a way to at least reduce stat abusing at least a little bit. I don't lose every game, but %90 of the time I'm with a stat abusing Merc, I end up losing, no matter what kind of build I have.

I'm sure there's others with this problem, not just me.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 0:55:43)

My opinion: It doesn't matter as long as it's fun. More build variety typically means more interesting fights and more fun.

And for my argument:

Before focus was nerfed everyone was complaining it was OP and stat abuse was weaker (excluding caster builds, but that was because the scaling on plasma bolt was undoubtedly OP). Now that focus is nerfed it's gone the opposite way. Therefore, if you don't want to use focus, just change builds. Right now I'm using a very successful BM build I made myself which somewhat mirrors the infamous strength 100 HP BM, but with much reduced strength, slightly reduced HP, and much stronger defenses at level 4 focus with botanical hazard. Back in delta I spent hundreds of thousands of credits and hours simply testing builds for fun and made a numerous selection of my own original, creative builds. If you spend enough time then you can definitely find ways to beat stat abusers and any other build type that you think is OP.



Mother1 -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 0:56:23)

News flash if you take that out not only will verity take a nose dive, but everyone will be using focus builds. At one point in time everyone was complaining about being forced to be using these builds to wins. If everyone is forced to use these builds (since stat abuse can't be used anymore forcing balanced builds which are focus builds) those who don't want to use them will complain until those are nerfed.




Dual Thrusters -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 1:00:20)

Remember when we all turned into 5-focus Zombies?

This will end up just like that (minus the caster mages)



Ranloth -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 8:39:12)

Losing doesn't make anything overpowered. Definition of overpowered is not being able to beat something/someone with any build you can think so AND others (different classes) are in the same position as you are. If you lose and so does your faction mates, time to revise your builds instead. 6 people that you've mentioned cannot vouch for all of the ED, and neither does bias help.

Can you beat the stat abusers?
Have you tried different builds?
Does other classes struggle as much/more than you?
Have they tried changing their builds?

If the answer is "Yes" for all, we can talk about something being wrong. But they are beatable. Many players can beat them. Fast kill, low ratio - that's their speciality.

Also, forcing everyone into one build is just wrong. Omega gives diversity, players don't care and abuse the most mainstream builds and now that you want to force them to one build, it's wrong. Stat abusers were nerfed greatly since Omega has started and they aren't a threat. It could be synergy but not the build on its own. Even then, they are still beatable.



DarkDevil -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 8:49:50)

instead of removing stat abuse you have to nerf the type of build abuse that is considered OP , we know about BMs and they will be nerfed after the war because they totally rely on passives otherwise you have to mention what build is considered OP to you so we can prove otherwise [8D]



MsJustNotPerfect -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 11:30:53)

Removing stat abuse would make this game so boring and not fun to play.

We would all have Focus 5 builds like when bots came out.



dfo99 -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 14:10:02)

i wanna set all points in strength, but the requeriments not allow



Predator9657 -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 14:10:20)

I don't see why your complaining - stat abusers are not hard to beat at all.



Nexus... -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 14:11:51)

@Everyone

The OP is right...but he/she is also wrong. They are right that stat abusing is very frustrating and a major problem right now, but they are wrong when they say that removing stat abusing will balance the game. The real issue is actually kind of ironic, and we all know what it is. There is a huge lack of build diversity as it is, and stat abusing is what most classes are currently drawn to in order to win. However, in order to fix the problem you would need to increase build diversity, not decrease it as the OP is suggesting.


So stop acting like stat abusing isn't a problem, because it is, its just a matter of finding the correct solution. There should be counterplay to stat abusing builds (like every other build), something that can consistently beat it, and not leave it up to a coin toss, and right now there isn't.


Prophet



Mother1 -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 15:23:48)

@ Nexus

what is the main thing that stops people from being diverse with builds? The following is the answer

not wanting to lose because Let's face it we both know no one wants to lose so in order to win the would sooner copy a successful build that gives a decent win rate then be creative and take the risk of getting hammered by successful builds (Which are cookie cutters everyone seem to be using)

So as long as we have people more worried about their win/lose ratio then having fun there will be no diversity.




DarkDevil -> RE: Stat abusing (8/21/2013 15:42:26)

untill every build in the game is balanced.



rayniedays56 -> RE: Stat abusing (9/5/2013 3:15:07)

Stat Abusing?


Hmmm....


Maybe you should look at these....


Strength Build Early Delta

or

Stat Abuse Late Delta

or my personal favorite

Early-Mid Delta


Those days we could enhance and abuse a stat with little consequence. Someone with a Beta weapon would enhance their technology to...say +60 and have 70+ on their base technology. What is this? A very powerful, and rather hard to beat Plasma Bolt build.


Stat Abuse today is little to nothing. Sure, if you see someone with 74+32 strength, they are lacking HEAVILY somewhere else.





Oh, and hi forums! I haven't posted in forever. Hmm :/



goldslayer1 -> RE: Stat abusing (9/5/2013 13:41:43)

your issue isn't with "stat abusing" its with stat balance.

this is what happens when the devs neglect to balance their stats right.
you get people choosing 1 stat over another because there's less drawbacks to having a particular stat being low.

but "stat abusing" technically doesn't exist.
100 stats in str or 25 in str, dex, tech, support, is still 100 stats.

i should also point out that removing what you call "stat abusing" will only lead to less build variety. it would make the game worse than it is.
none of these issues are going away as long as the classes and stats remain unbalanced.

i could maybe see them balancing the stats because it would be much easier, but they wont be balancing the classes anytime soon unless they get some serious help with some serious makeovers.

and my personal opinion, anyone who blames something on "stat abusing" is somewhat ignorant to the issues mentioned above regarding stat balance.


quote:

what is the main thing that stops people from being diverse with builds? The following is the answer

not wanting to lose because Let's face it we both know no one wants to lose so in order to win the would sooner copy a successful build that gives a decent win rate then be creative and take the risk of getting hammered by successful builds (Which are cookie cutters everyone seem to be using)

So as long as we have people more worried about their win/lose ratio then having fun there will be no diversity.

i would agree with you there, if this were delta.
but we're in omega now. you can make any build that would be considered a joke and get atleast 50%

when people start talking about win ratios it mostly only defines the top 15 in the LBs.
there are hundreds of players in ED. only 15 make it in the LB daily, and those are the one's whos %s you see.

the majority of the high % builds come from the hardcore players. which in turn, is later copied by the softcore players.

although most high %s builds now are mainly focus, which tends to have spread stats.



kosmo -> RE: Stat abusing (9/6/2013 6:41:47)

^nothing is more true than the last part of ur post.
90% of the buld copiers think that u cant go over the low ratios we see in lb, this is why they end up coping those loosy fast bulds.
this is why i have more than once suggested to expand the lbs, so some of those slow but succesfull playsers can show to our comunity that its acutally possible to have a rlly good ratio, im sure that this change could encourage more ppl to play, bringing back the idea that ratio is better than the number of wins.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Stat abusing (9/6/2013 13:13:57)

make an agility like penalty, except it reducts when a stat is abused.



Ranloth -> RE: Stat abusing (9/6/2013 13:15:52)

Staff has gotten rid of Agility because it didn't work out properly, and they didn't want it back under any form.. The best way is to slow down the progression after it gets past a certain range (i.e. 4 stats for +1 damage until you have 50 stats, then +5 stats for +1 damage until you have 75 stats, etc.). This way, there's incentive to invest in stats but you won't get as much damage.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Stat abusing (9/6/2013 13:20:00)

it would work because they wouldnt have so much hp to cushion it all up. agility should have always been if they abused stats.



Ranloth -> RE: Stat abusing (9/6/2013 13:29:37)

Players admitted it didn't work because high HP builds were almost rare back then, most between 95 and 110 HP (or even below 95), and Devs didn't like Agility either. They have said it was a band-aid to a bigger problem and a poor one at that.

It makes no sense to get high amount of stats and deal less damage. If I get penalised by having -1 damage at 100 Strength, surely I would rather keep it at 99 and have same damage? Or at the lowest number for that range - meaning I can invest the spare points into other stat. Slower progression - aka diminishing returns - are the most efficient way because they always work and don't limit players.
They exist now and yet players still abuse stats. This goes to show something - it works and it doesn't work; works because they used to have much bigger advantage in the past and doesn't work because it is too strong in certain circumstances.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Stat abusing (9/6/2013 17:05:16)

quote:

Staff has gotten rid of Agility because it didn't work out properly, and they didn't want it back under any form.

except the progression is a form of agility because the progressions for str and support are different from dex and tech.

it was made that way on purpose so that you had to invest more into it.

quote:

Slower progression - aka diminishing returns - are the most efficient way because they always work and don't limit players

they may seem more efficient but the investment dont outweigh the rewards.

i remember when the progression for str was changed.

i had a Str BH with 21-26 primary level before the change, and like 19-23 after it.
if i wanted to bring the level back up to 12-26 it required like 12 more stats.


instead what i did was bring it down to 18-22
and put the remaining stats (i think it was like 7 or 8) into more energy and dex.
this allowed me to put in a cheapshot/EMP into the build without major sacrifices.

the end result was that the build worked better.
sometimes the investment doesn't outweigh the reward, and players wont waste their time doing something if the system is against them.


quote:

Slower progression - aka diminishing returns - are the most efficient way because they always work and don't limit players.
They exist now and yet players still abuse stats. This goes to show something - it works and it doesn't work; works because they used to have much bigger advantage in the past and doesn't work because it is too strong in certain circumstances.

id have to say thats a bad comparison mainly because of the way omega changed.

couple of reasons str mercs came back was
1) HP was lowered, allowing them to kill enemies faster
2) EP base was increased, allowing them for better berserker DS/Stun combos while investing less or nothing at all into energy.
3) at first they had high %s because few were using them, once the build went widespread %s lowered. and thus began the public outcry for a nerf.


with that said, i take it that Divine darkness skipped my post.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Stat abusing (9/7/2013 21:22:56)

quote:

-1 damage at 100 Strength


1 defence/resistance...



Ranloth -> RE: Stat abusing (9/8/2013 7:54:17)

You didn't make it clear, and the point still stands. You can just have -1 less Strength and avoid being penalised defence-wise.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Stat abusing (9/11/2013 15:13:07)

hmm, and have oneless str damage.



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