RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ash -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 22:17:03)

Ok, the specials killing you should be fixed. I *think* I also nabbed the female double hit to DoT's but not positive.

You do need to clear your cache to pick this up though.



Rorshach -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 22:36:26)

Is Sugar Overload Twig supposed to have no effects? Since you said they would all have an effect now.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 22:37:20)

He's the increased BtH ability.



Azan -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 23:08:17)

So, if I'm right, we have...

Warmth - Fire-locked attack, Fire-locked DoT for 4 turns.
Twig - Attack with increased BtH.
Yule Tide - Multi.
Fruitcake Brick - Three turns stun.
Blind - Three turns blind (-50 to hit) with a chance of Mega-Blind for 1 turn (-100 to hit).
Wreath - 140 M/P/M for 2 turns.
Spirit Burst - Attack with increased damage.
Attack - attack.
String of Lights - Elemental Weakness.
Candy Crane Kick - Guaranteed Crit.
Gingerbread Invasion - Attack, regeneration at every hit.
Evergreen - Cooldowns reduced by 4.
Horrible Gift - Chance to boost your BtH, your PowerBoost, to nerf your enemy's BtH or PowerBoost, or do all four at the same time.
Missle Toe - Multi.
Spirit of Giving - quite a lot of hits on that attack!

Am I missing one effect? From what I listed, every ability has an useful effect. I'd say this class is really getting useful.



Dread97 -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 23:13:44)

Seems good so far; will continue on testing to see if there are any game-breaking bugs ;). Nice job Ash!

On a side note, what does proc mean?



Womba -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 23:23:24)

Think of it as a coined term for "activation"

If you have a 50% Critical Hit proc rate. That means you have a 50% chance to critically attack.

Another -- actually good -- example is the abilities your Dragon gets in titan form based on the egg you chose for it. Those all have a certain chance to proc every time you simply press the Attack command.



ShimmerSoul -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/12/2014 23:45:50)

Don't forget the passive and its effect on Spirit Burst, Azan. :p A small chance of empowering spirit burst is present on every action but Attack and Spirit Burst itself - when empowered, Spirit Burst does increased damage (I think?) and heals MP.



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 0:42:12)

quote:

No, they aren't. Crane is now a guaranteed crit when before it had NO effect. Lights now weakness seeks when before it was light locked.


Light was previously a 100% light with no ability, and now it's more or less a weakness-seeking normal attack.
Most if not all well-off adventurers* have weapons to deal with the major elements, and usually do not encounter irregularly-weak monsters in enough frequency to justify getting a weapon for its element, or use a skill that'll give like, 30% more damage than if they just attacked with a neutral element.

*adventurers that are not well off enough would still be unable to use FMA outside of a month-long window, and if that's the only time a major storyline boss can be killed, that's just unfair design.

I'm probably just biased and spiteful, but a weakness-seeking normal attack is equivalent to a normal attack 95% of the time, because you can just equip a weapon that uses the specific element.

Unless there are a string of ultra paladins with 100 to All and whose only weakness is -5000 to Shoelaces, Weakness Lights accomplishes very little as a slight edge on a normal attack is still less powerful than using a neutral Twig or Giving.


I just felt that CCK should have some sort of effect related to sweeping legs (since the class was first created), bit meh.



ShimmerSoul -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 1:14:23)

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that a weakness-seeking skill is useless. Some elements like Nature and Disease are kind of hard to come across without heavy 'pedia use and generally aren't too practical to carry around if you don't want to buy a huge amount of extra bag space (which costs a considerable amount of DCs). Maybe it's not useful at all to max-level players with all of the best weapons of every element and a fully-unlocked item bag, but it's a nice shortcut for thrifty players, or even just folks who can't be bothered to quest for that Disease weapon they'll probably use a total of once. Weapons with on-hit specials also stand to benefit from element-seeking, but there aren't a lot of those around.

EDIT: I do concede that it's probably not going to be in your main lineup, though. It does deal fairly low damage and generally wouldn't be practical unless the enemy had a really big weakness to an element you lacked a weapon for. That's not a scenario that's likely to come up more than 5-10 times in the whole game, even taking into account all the things I listed above.



warrior97 -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 3:19:45)

The Twig attack has become weak compared to the original Twig 3 hit attack,and the fruit brick does not inflict my enemy with stun,I tried out the armor against Mega Junkyard Driller hard mode and personally speaking,l find the revamped form to be less powerful than the original one



Roxas45 -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 3:59:43)

Why is Twig Nerfed....?
and What all got changed? I can only notice the Twig Change and the Change in certain icons.

but... why is Twig Nerfed? :/



Ash -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 8:02:41)

quote:

a weakness-seeking normal attack is equivalent to a normal attack 95% of the time, because you can just equip a weapon that uses the specific element.


Two major points.

1. Why was this not mentioned for Dragonslayer? It has the exact same skill. The "well it has a trigger" doesn't work as that trigger does not come into play on 90% of the game. Why on this armor and not on that one?

2. To a non-maxed, non-farmer, the seeking skill is wonderful. Not everyone uses the forums, so not everyone knows where to farm for all the "best in slot" weapons. Nor do people like having to farm their butt off. Nor does everyone have every element covered. If you only have 3 weapons because you hate to farm and those are the only ones you can buy from a shop at the moment, you'd love this skill as you'd be able to get away with less for longer until you can fill in those gaps. (Yes this is actually the case as I've gotten several emails from people going "Thank you for adding more shops with weapons! I needed more elements")

Is it the best, most amazing, skill on par with something as full of utility as the PL shield which can actually make the enemy kill themself? No. I'll give you that. It's a convenience skill.

quote:

I just felt that CCK should have some sort of effect related to sweeping legs (since the class was first created), bit meh.

This one is a fair point. The class needed a guaranteed crit skill though and it was the last open option that didn't seem to have an effect dictated in terms of animations. It would've been the stun skill when you swept the legs out from the opponent and stunned them, but the cake was already the stun. I could switch them around as a critical strike from a fruitcake seems more fitting.

quote:

The Twig attack has become weak compared to the original Twig 3 hit attack,and the fruit brick does not inflict my enemy with stun,I tried out the armor against Mega Junkyard Driller hard mode and personally speaking,l find the revamped form to be less powerful than the original one

You mean the skill that got fat fingered on the line that tells it what damage amount to do during one of the multitude of bug fixes so it was doing TRIPLE intended damage? Going to go ahead and let people know again, if something is doing something it shouldn't I'm going to first off fix the issue and then re-balance accordingly. This is a SoulWeaver: Banishment knee jerk. Keep playing around with the class and using all the skills, not just the "win button" combo from the old one. On Monday you can compare the new stats against the old stats and make a better determination.

I'm chucking fruitcake at the Driller right now and it's stunning him on every attempt. I don't know if you're getting a resist attempt success or what but the stun is being inflicted. Is it in combination with other things? Like are you Warmth -> Fruitcake and it's not stunning. I need to know all the particulars to check and see if things are interacting in a bugged way because just checking the singular skill it is working.

I understand change isn't the most welcome thing all the time. I get that losing access to quick kill or "OP" combos makes things go a little slower and people don't like that. There is a fairly large change that's going to be happening after the new year to stats and items as a whole that people may not like. Change just for the sake of change isn't the point here. Changing things to make them both usable and sustainable is.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 9:49:20)

@warrior97 - All enemies have an invisible chance to resist stuns on Hard Mode, could that be what the issue was?

@Ash - OMG, stat change coming relatively soon-ish possibly! Excellent. :D

As for the armor, I think it's great; it's a very solid class, and not just two broken skills:

It's got very solid defense, with an incredibly powerful heal, very nice (though pretty random) MP regen, and a 1-turn-gap blind that can be covered by a stun/shield/random Gift blind, plus the CD reduction of Evergreen to make all of the above even better for mounting a sustained defense.

Offensively, you've got a large nuke in Spirit of Giving - perfect for farming enemies quickly - and in Spirit Burst when it's triggered, plus good but slow damage on Warmth if you're not facing a Fire-resistant enemy, and Evergreen to let you use those 3 more often of course. Light is great on very-vulnerable enemies who you don't happen to have a weapon for, but that's not too common an occurrence except in the very start of the game when you only have 1-2 weapons. And the multis are very nice, but it feels wrong having two skills that are the same, just to have what in effect is the same as one multi with no CD... I guess the cost of a skill slot is necessary to pay for that no-CD good-damage multi-capability, but I feel there should at least be some minor difference between the two skills.

Still, even that much on a class as defensively good as FMA is very nice; I remember the days when few people used the defensive classes because they failed at killing anything quickly and thus weren't very good for most of the game (i.e., non-boss fights). No more!

Also, I agree with switching the kick and the fruitcake; both would make sense as a stun, but the kick doesn't really scream "critical hit".


EDIT: Hrm, FMA seems to hsve the same issue(?) as Technomancer, in that its effects are all applied to enemies even if the skill that triggers them misses. Is that intended (in either class)?



Azan -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 11:07:40)

I noticed one problem: in Frostval Act 11 (Chapter 5), you auto-load FMA for the quest. But now, the loading goes on indefinitely and nothing loads, preventing me from completing this quest. Now my secondary is stuck at Act 11 and cannot catch up anymore...
Now it works. Still the old version of FMA, but the armor loads.



The_element -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 11:56:44)

I hope that GPS doesn't lose its infinite blind as well, the class really just needs a new shield and a damage buff...

Anyway, the class seems alright, but the shield skill seems to have an necessarily long cooldown ( it is 8 turns when other classes have 5 or 6). Seeing that most monsters don't even have high defence skills or blinds, the twig skill in its current form seems useless. I would rather use any other skill, maybe even the attack bar to conserve mana. Spirit of Giving kinda feels like a one shot mobs skill, which makes the class play differently to the way it should. The class used to be tanky, whilst dishing out decent to mid damage, however it now it feels like its trying to do too much, but too little of what it actually is doing.

I think at this stage the class could do with less of the toolkit, but more of offensive or defensive bias... or else people will just use riftwalker and one shot mobs and bosses.

EDIT: The thing with string of lights, the description and animation implies that the skill does light damage, I can't imagine doing darkness damage with the skill. The logic with Paladin was that it was doing blasts of lights, so most of its skills must light locked, same for Pumpkin lord's skills. However, this doesn't follow with FMA....
The reason people didn't complain about a weakness seeking skill for dragonslayer, because it was related with its previous pre-buffed version, which was also a weakness seeker. Again, it feels like strings of light is a rather poor utility skill, it would be better off as a buffed up light-locked skill. I also feel that the idea of people not on the forums having like 3 weapons is nil point, because it isn't true, non-da and low level players normally just accept the rewards from the quest they just completed, so by LV15 they should've accumulated most of the fundamental elements.



Roxas45 -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 12:23:01)

@Ash: I had no idea that the FMA's Twig skill was doing thrice the intended armour. Well, it was good while it lasted.
Small suggestion, about the animation for the Twig skill? Is it possible to make Twig move twice and thrice as fast for the second and third attack respectively? The first attack looks fine, like as if he really was hyper after consuming Candy :D But the second and third look a lot like the Moglin Punting game that Twilly is so "fond" of.

and what skill is this, that is "a weakness-seeking normal attack is equivalent to a normal attack 95% of the time, because you can just equip a weapon that uses the specific element."? I hadnt noticed any such effect :/ O_o



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 12:28:27)

quote:

1. Why was this not mentioned for Dragonslayer? It has the exact same skill. The "well it has a trigger" doesn't work as that trigger does not come into play on 90% of the game. Why on this armor and not on that one?


In my mind, Dragonslayer is a class that (now) has purposes against everything, but really only shines against Dragons.
In that case, Dragonslayer would not be used against anything else, and so "it has a trigger on non-dragons but it's not significant" doesn't come up very often because the class just wouldn't be used unless you needed to pulverize Akriloth.

Additionally, DragonBane does effectively 96% weakness-seeking damage (virtually identical to 100% weakness seeking) on its original hit, but also increases weakness to everything by 20%, resulting in an overall boost in damage.

quote:

2. To a non-maxed, non-farmer, the seeking skill is wonderful. Not everyone uses the forums, so not everyone knows where to farm for all the "best in slot" weapons. Nor do people like having to farm their butt off. Nor does everyone have every element covered. If you only have 3 weapons because you hate to farm and those are the only ones you can buy from a shop at the moment, you'd love this skill as you'd be able to get away with less for longer until you can fill in those gaps. (Yes this is actually the case as I've gotten several emails from people going "Thank you for adding more shops with weapons! I needed more elements")


That is a fair point, but for most of these players, FMA will only be available for 1 month out of every year. Does it let those players get away with less for longer? Maybe, but when there's an 11-month interval between the times when that's feasible, then it's not exactly relevant.

It's also kind of tough to even get FMA when you only have 3 weapons, anyway, tbh.

quote:

Is it the best, most amazing, skill on par with something as full of utility as the PL shield which can actually make the enemy kill themself? No. I'll give you that. It's a convenience skill.

Then in that case, I feel that a 5-turn cooldown is unjustified, because 1 turn out of 6 where you get a little extra damage will not matter.
The only instance where I can think of where this is relevant is as a level 9 against Doomkitten without a water weapon, and in that case 1 hit that deals triple damage might be helpful, but there are not enough instances for a weakness-seeking 100% to mean all that much.

Will it be great against those PvP staff characters with -1000 to bacon? Probably, but unless that 1 hit results in a win, it will not matter because you'll still lose due to being able to deal no significant damage otherwise.

I don't think it'll be very significant to the overall utility to the class unless it had anything higher than a 2-turn cooldown, really.



The_element -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 12:37:51)

@ Ero- It just feels so awkward having strings of LIGHT, being a weakness seeker... I just don't see how it's relevant, the skill's previous incarnation had nothing do with weakness seeking, the skill would be better off as buffed up light locked skill. Right now, the class actually feels kinda nerfed, but I can't remember people on the forum saying that FMA was OP. In all honesty the class needs something to make it shine or else people will use something else like riftwalker, paladin or necromancer.



Arithonne -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 13:03:23)

I haven't played around with the revamped class yet, but, as I remember it, FMA had several skills that cost mana but seemed to do normal attack damage, so I'm in favour of anything that changes that.

In regards to an elemental weakness seeking skill, they also a lot more useful at lower levels where farming for a bunch of different weapons can easily level you up to the point that you now need to farm for a whole new set of weapons, or where a particular element may not have a good option. Leveling a lower levels takes so little effort its not funny. I actually tracked it during the final 13th war, and from levels 50 - 60, it only took about 130 waves to gain a level. Before they started doing the double exp enemies in the last couple wars, it would take about 800 waves to gain a level from 70 - 80. Weakness seeking attacks are also great when you have a weapon that's much more powerful than other, like say the doom weapons.

If we're going to talk about skills that are pretty useless, the attack monster's mana skills are only useful against the dreaded minx fairies and frost dragons, as they are the only monsters that actually use mana. I'd love to see those turn into a mana steal skill, so at least there would be a reason for most monsters to have mana.



The_element -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/13/2014 13:11:31)

The class by any means isn't bad right now, the loss of the infinite blind is negated by the fact the class now has a working shield. Using evergreen you can loop blind and wreath, so you should always be protected. Having a stun just enhances this, so defensively the class is about the same as where it was before, but string of lights seems so random. If the twig skill did say 3 hits of 70% I think it should be pretty okay, people should rage less. Warmth, gingerbread invasion and horrible gift, I think were executed well.



deather98 -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/14/2014 8:35:44)

As far as I can tell this revamped version of FMA is very good. So far I havent seen any issues with it yet. I hope the permant version is ready soon to save as main armor ^.^



ProstheticFate -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/14/2014 15:23:11)

IMO I like this revamp, I don't see anything bad about it, I do remember certain skills being a bit more powerful then they are now, but by no means does it degrade the class from what it used to be because I think it's even better aside from the twig nerf, I like the new effects added for the skills pretty neat. Good job Ash!



VJ -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/14/2014 15:39:17)

I have it unlocked just haven't worked on it much because of needing the 3 slay bells per skill(42 in all) so my experience with it is limited that and like afb728 said before me I didn't like the look of it either.

by the way thanks for the nice upgrades for these armors you guys have been giving us.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/14/2014 17:56:47)

quote:

I hope that GPS doesn't lose its infinite blind as well, the class really just needs a new shield and a damage buff...

Be prepared for disappointment. Just because the class is DC doesn't mean it gets to keep a broken effect. Infinite blind shouldn't be possible unless it's under very specific circumstances. Neither class meets those.

quote:

Anyway, the class seems alright, but the shield skill seems to have an necessarily long cooldown ( it is 8 turns when other classes have 5 or 6).

Let's go look at other classes for a moment. Most block 2 out of Melee/Magic/Pierce. How many does FMA block against?

quote:

I think at this stage the class could do with less of the toolkit, but more of offensive or defensive bias... or else people will just use riftwalker and one shot mobs and bosses.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

quote:

The logic with Paladin was that it was doing blasts of lights, so most of its skills must light locked, same for Pumpkin lord's skills. However, this doesn't follow with FMA....

Comparing Apple and Turkey. One class uses literal blasts of light, the other uses a piece of glass that you chuck at the opponent. It's a piece of glass powered by energy so if anything it should be dealing energy, not light.

quote:

I also feel that the idea of people not on the forums having like 3 weapons is nil point, because it isn't true,

I'm glad you have access to player data to see what is and isn't true.

quote:

I don't think it'll be very significant to the overall utility to the class unless it had anything higher than a 2-turn cooldown, really.

That's, and I feel like I'm repeating myself more than I should ever need to, an opinion. Unless you can provide concrete evidence that's all it ever will be. You feel it's not useful because you can use another weapon, that's fine. The cooldown that it was given is appropriate to the type of skill that it is.

quote:

It just feels so awkward having strings of LIGHT, being a weakness seeker... I just don't see how it's relevant, the skill's previous incarnation had nothing do with weakness seeking, the skill would be better off as buffed up light locked skill.

So the skill's previous incarnation has to influence the revamped version? I can choose what effects to follow or to give them totally new ones. There is nothing stated anywhere that I have to use the old skills effect.

quote:

Right now, the class actually feels kinda nerfed, but I can't remember people on the forum saying that FMA was OP. In all honesty the class needs something to make it shine or else people will use something else like riftwalker, paladin or necromancer.

It was OP in regards to a few skills that were brought into line. Infinite blind, a skill that did 3x the damage it was meant to originally, and a spammable skill that people overused because that's really the only damage skill it had besides Giving. The second part is, again, your opinion. It doesn't make it right, it also isn't backed up by any facts.

I'm changing the string skill and most likely changing the name. To be clear, it's not getting a light locked effect. It's getting something else that fits tossing a piece of glass at the enemy and shattering.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= Frost Moglin Armor Discussion Thread (12/14/2014 18:21:11)

I'm curious what it'll be changing to. My first guess would be a DoT as throwing glass at someone hard enough would cause those tiny chunks to get stuck in the skin. But this class already has a pretty nice DoT so I doubt it would get a second one.
Maybe another 1 turn stun, probably not as the class has a nice stun attack as well.
---

So far I have liked the revamp of the class. It has passed my 4 boss enemies that I try every new revamp with very little issue or needing to heal extreme amounts. Haven't tried it through a super long quest yet.



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