RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ragsrun -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/26/2015 18:57:20)

I don't think you'll need to worry about male ninjas struttin' around with their biceps and 6-packs bare for all to see, Womba. That's not how I imagine ninjas either. : p



Neliux -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 0:59:04)

But... Over the top Ninja are the best kind of Ninja...

ART OF THE PIERCING VOID!!!!

*Proceeds to throw a black hole at your enemies from the palm of your hands*

Granted, considering Thyton is your ''sensei'', and he seems to be a very classic Ninja (as far as popular fiction goes, of course), sans the Helmet? such things would't really work for this class.

Don't even get me started on Naruto...



The Odor -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 11:06:53)

Okay so I am not equipped to judge this armour in regards to power yet but I am liking it, but animationwise I am actually liking it.
Its simple but it focuses on actual melee attacks rather then explosions. So... Yeah I am really liking it.
Looking forward to see what you might do with it Ragsrun.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 11:38:56)

Ok after I tested the armor with gary's weapon I bring you the skill breakdown (has to be confirmed by Ash yet):

attack
1 hit of 125% wep damage.

Kage ni Fedo
+150 melee/magic def for 2 turns.
Cd: 5 turns.
Mana cost: 15 mana.

Kyosokuna Kogeki
2 hits of 75% wep damage for a total of 150% wep dmg.
Cd: 1 turn.
Mana cost: 20 mana


Gekido Boko
3 hits of +-41,7% wep damage for a total of 125% wep dmg. Attemps to stun on each hit.
Stun duration: 3 turns.
Cd: 12 turns.
Mana cost: 20 mana.

Okibona Sutoraiki
1 hit of 165% weapon damage with 100% chance to crit for a total of 330% weapon damage.
Cd: 15 turns
Mana cost: 25 mana.

Sasori Sutingo
1 hit of 40% poison element weapon damage. applies a dot to the enemy for 4 turns.
dot damage: 40% weapon damage poison element.
Cd: 4 turns
Mana cost: 14 mana

Kakusareta Sutoraiki
1 hit of 130% weapon damage to all enemies.
Cd: 1 turn.
Mana cost: 15 mana.

Shokubai
1 hit of "x" weapon damage. The damage increases per dot applied to the enemy:
0 dot: 130% weapon damage.
1 dot: 150% weapon damage.
2 dot: 170% weapon damage.
3 dot: 190% weapon damage.
Cd: 1 turn.
Mana Cost: 27 mana.

Kage No Naka O Aruku
Avoid some damage every turn for 5 turns.
How it works: Once you get hit, you lose +-40% of the total damage (% not confirmed) applied to you. For example the enemy hits you for 120 damage, the number on your char appears as 120 but you lose 72 hp.
Note: dot's applied on you are not reduced.
Cd: 8 turns
Mana cost: 28 mana.

Hasu no Buraddo
1 hit of 80% poison element weapon damage. applies a dot to the enemy for 10 turns.
dot damage: 30% weapon damage poison element.
Cd: 10 turns.
Mana cost: 23 mana.

Kasumi-me
1 hit of 130% weapon damage to the enemy. Applies a 5 turn -40 hit to the enemy while gives you a 5 turn +80 dodge.
Cd: 7 turns.
Mana cost: 26 mana.

Mahi surasshu
Can only be used after a succesful hit.
4 hits of 30% weapon damage for a total of 120% wep damage. Applies a -40 melee/pierce/magic to the enemy for 5 turns. Applies "movement limited" for 5 turns which has a chance to randomly stun the enemy for 1 turn.
Cd: 9 turns.
Mana cost: 26 mana.

Mamushi Doku
1 hit of 40% poison element weapon damage. Applies a dot to the enemy for 5 turns.
dot damage: 40% weapon damage posion element.
Cd: 5 turns.
Mana cost: 17 mana.

Banisshu
Provides 100 dodge for 2 turns and +30 bonus for 3 turns. Enables the usage of Shadousutoraiki at the next turn.
Cd: 6 turns.
Mana cost: 22 mana.

Shadousutoraiki
Attacks the enemy with 10 hits of 30% weapon damage.
Cd: 11 turns.
Mana cost: 35 mana.


I won't give any personal review yet as I didn't test the armor enough (boss fights, long quests, comparisson with other classes...). After I finish farming defender medals like a loony, I'll give my thoughts about the armor (this weekend probably).

Edit: Oh well I've been pretty close [:D].



Ash -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 11:41:15)

quote:

Attack - 125% Damage

1. Fade to Shadows
+150 Melee/Magic for 2 turns.

2. Rapid Attack
150% damage

3. Furious Assault
126% damage, 3 turn stun

4. Massive Strike
165% damage, 100% chance to crit

5. Scorpion Venom - DoT effect 1
40% upfront damage.
280% Poison damage over 7 turns.
Poison Element Damage on attack and DoT effect.

6. Hidden Strike - multi
130% damage to all enemies

7. Catalyst - damage increased per ninja DoT
Starts at 130% damage. Damage increases by +20% for each of Scorpion Venom, Blood of the Lotus, Viper Venom, and the Ninja Trinket, Summon Honda, on the target.

8. Shadow Walk
Avoid 25-50% of each attacks damage for 4 turns.
This randomly chooses on EACH hit. So if you get hit once it will lower it by between 25-50% of that hits damage. If you get hit with 20 attacks in a turn it'll lower EACH hit by between 25-50% of that damage.
Note - It doesn't actually "avoid" the damage. It heals you for the % damage of each hit that it randomly picks. If you watch your health bar you'll see it drop and jump up a bit on every attack.

9. Blood of the Lotus - DoT effect 2
80% upfront damage
300% damage over 10 turns.
Poison Element Damage on attack and DoT effect.

10. Blurred Vision
130% damage
+80 dodge for 4 turns. -40 enemy Bonus for 4 turns.

11. Paralyzing Slash
115% damage
20% chance to stun every turn for 4 turns. -45 to Melee/Pierce/Magic for 4 turns.

12. Viper Venom - DoT effect 3
40% upfront damage
200% damage over 5 turns.
Poison Element Damage on attack and DoT effect.

13. Vanish
+100 to Dodge for 2 turns. +30 Bonus for 4 turns. Unlocks skill 14.

14. Shadow Strike
290% damage over 10 hits. Must be under the effects of skill 13 to unlock.


Ok, english names should be live. You'll need to relog and cache clear to pick them up. I also left a few notes in there about what the more weird skills do.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 15:01:46)

Ok I got bored of farming Dm's and I've been messing around with the class. I'll have to say that the class needs a serious buff in it's damage values as it underperforms compared to other which are supposed to be defensive.

Yes I mean it. Ninja right now deals less "long term" damage than technomancer, dragonslayer (vs non dragons/lizards) and the base classes (atleast less damage than mage class).

I won't comment about the defensive aspect of the class as I found it good as it is.

General suggestions:

-Rapid attack:

This skill is useless compared to catalyst which has the same cooldown and same or more damage (lotus duration is long that's why I'm considering catalyst a 150% or higher). I would suggest to either increase it's damage at the cost of a higher cooldown or delete this skill and change it for another (maybe the old healing skill).

-Scorpion venon/viper venom:

Those 2 skills are almost the same. I would decrease the damage and increase the duration of 1 of those poisons so the class can have more space to use it's defensive skills. Just because you are too exposed when you're going "full ofensive" trying to have your enemy with the 3 dot's all the time.


-Vanish/Shadow Strike:

Using both ends up in doing 145% in 2 turns. That's the same or less than catalyst + something. The bonusses provided by vanish aren't good enough to use it (dodge is not a reliable defense and the bonus is nice but kinda irrelevant in high levels outside of hard mode).
I suggest 1 of these options:
1- Make vanish strike the enemy for 100% or similar.
2- Make vanish give a +-40% powerboost for 2 turns so you synergize it shadow strike + crit or catalyst
3- Increase Shadow Strike damage.

Also why Vanish has lower cooldown than Shadow strike? I doubt anyone would use that skill outside of casting shadow strike. Makes no sense to me.

-Shadow Walk:

The idea is nice but it doesn't fit with the ninja style for me. A ninja is supposed to not get hit, not "tanking" damage. The skill is only relevant while not using either the shield/stun/blind and the cooldown of those skills make possible to be almost on permanent "protection".
I would change it for a purge skill or a small hit+crit+powerboost skill.


Damage boost suggestions: (in case you agree with me that the class needs more damage)

-Rapid attack: 190% wep damage 3 turns of cooldown.

-Massive strike: 180% wep damage 100% crit.

-Scorpion venom: 90% wep damage on hit and 200% dot in 4 turns (50% dot).

-Catalyst: damage increase from dot's: 30% instead of 20%.

-blood of the lotus: 90% damage on hit. 350% dot on 10 turns (35% dot).

-Viper venom: 90% damage on hit. 7 turns dot of 40% for a total of 280%.

-Vanish/Shadow strike: As I stated before, make vanish land a hit or give boost or make shadow strike stronger. Also make both have the same cooldown.

Other stuff


-The class mana costs are good how they are. The class has no mana sustain but it's skills costs are lower than deathknight for example (although DK takes less turns to win a battle). I would adjust it's mana cost to be a bit lower than technomancer (if they already are it's ok for me).
-The class lacks a passive (it's not a complaint as a passive is a "luxury" rather than a right). But it would be nice to give something to the class. Just something... A +5 darkness/poison resist or a starting +3 parry/block/dodge.... something.




Ash -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 15:26:56)

quote:

This skill is useless compared to catalyst which has the same cooldown and same or more damage (lotus duration is long that's why I'm considering catalyst a 150% or higher). I would suggest to either increase it's damage at the cost of a higher cooldown or delete this skill and change it for another (maybe the old healing skill).

You're meant to chain Rapid and Catalyst back to back when you have poisons up. I'm not going to up its damage as it's also filling the "quick hit" roll that classes now have.

quote:

Those 2 skills are almost the same. I would decrease the damage and increase the duration of 1 of those poisons so the class can have more space to use it's defensive skills. Just because you are too exposed when you're going "full ofensive" trying to have your enemy with the 3 dot's all the time.

I'll probably adjust Scorpion to have a longer duration and adjust the costs/damage.

quote:

Using both ends up in doing 145% in 2 turns. That's the same or less than catalyst + something. The bonusses provided by vanish aren't good enough to use it (dodge is not a reliable defense and the bonus is nice but kinda irrelevant in high levels outside of hard mode).
I suggest 1 of these options:
1- Make vanish strike the enemy for 100% or similar.
2- Make vanish give a +-40% powerboost for 2 turns so you synergize it shadow strike + crit or catalyst
3- Increase Shadow Strike damage.


SS is already sitting higher damage wise than it should be at a lower cooldown than it should be because it's locked off. This is not a tier 3 class, this is not a holiday class. It's not getting higher damage. The skill is also setup to work with the stat changes coming in 2-3 weeks, Dodge, Block, and Miss are viable defenses if given enough points and used in conjunction with the other defense skills. Calling it not reliable is fine, but not true. It's also meant to be a increase to not being hit, not making you unable to be hit. You're supposed to chain these skills together, even so using it on it's own is still workable as you're avoiding at least several attacks in those turns.

quote:

Also why Vanish has lower cooldown than Shadow strike? I doubt anyone would use that skill outside of casting shadow strike. Makes no sense to me.

Because it's its own skill. Just because one skill unlocks another doesn't mean it gets a tagged CD. You can also use it as part of a wind up to get perfect defense and then go in for a large attack.

quote:

The idea is nice but it doesn't fit with the ninja style for me. A ninja is supposed to not get hit, not "tanking" damage. The skill is only relevant while not using either the shield/stun/blind and the cooldown of those skills make possible to be almost on permanent "protection".
I would change it for a purge skill or a small hit+crit+powerboost skill.

The class isn't getting a heal skill. This is as close as you're going to get. It's meant to be used on foes that have multiple attacks per turn so you mitigate some damage while your full defensive skills are on cooldown for the few turns they don't overlap.

The class isn't getting too much more damage. It's going to be slightly over budget after I make the tweaks to the poison. I can shuffle some other stuff around but it's sitting as far up as I can finagle it for where it is storyline wise and the delayed/avoided damage.



Womba -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 16:01:42)

quote:

The skill is also setup to work with the stat changes coming in 2-3 weeks,


MASSIVE spoilers.

Hug your crit items one last time. ~Ash



Neliux -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 16:28:48)

Awwwww, I loved my crit items.[:(]



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 16:30:58)

quote:

MASSIVE spoilers.

Hug your crit items one last time. ~Ash
[:D].

He already stated it at one of the dragonrider war threads. But I wonder what Ash has in mind: general hp buff to monsters? nerf to crit damage and crit chance? buff to luck and cha to make them useful? I doubt he's going to change the skill values of all the classes being already revamped.

Oh btw Ash may I know what comes next? pirate revamp or dragonlord "small changes"?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 16:35:03)

It's actually a larger change than that, to lots of stuff, like most stats. This isn't really the spot but there'll be info about it soon.

I *think* ranger is next. If not the DL tweaks will be for February. Pirate will be March. Then DL for April, or if it wasn't done in Feb Ranger, or if that's still not ready Guardian. GPS is the for sure last one.



leon_200555 -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 16:45:23)

So the new and improved Ninja Class. I have to say after testing it against Monsters, Players and Bosses. That this update is very well done. It might even be a little Over Powered but I love it. The fact that it comes with so many stackable DoTs makes it great for Fighting Players and Bosses. Also with all the Defensive skills its very easy to avoid damage for prolonged periods of time. This new version of the class is amazing.

As far as changing Scorpion Poison I would give it less damage than Viper and More than Lotus. As for its Duration I would go for 6 rounds. That right in the middle of the two. Just food for thought you might have already had that in mind.



flashbang -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 17:01:50)

A new revamp/tweak every month for at least three, if not four or five months? I think I can live with that.



Azan -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 18:43:24)

I just hope the Crit being nerfed won't affect our warring speed, since most high-leveled players focus on a high Crit value to kill war mobs. And I hope CHA and LUK will be getting more useful. CHA especially.

As for Ninja itself, since it's the thread for it, I fully support a longer duration Scorpion. I initially thought it'd be nice to have a faster, more lethal-type poison, but as Catalyst is getting excellent damage with the poisons, it's optimal that they last longer.

As for Fade to Shadows, I thought of that and... 2 turns for a shield is always very, very short. I'd like better if it was 3 turns (even more since it has the disadvantage of being only M/M instead of M/P/M) with a longer cooldown. As a 3-turns shield was done for other classes and, well, this one is supposed to be defensive, I think that'd be nice to do on Ninja.



SonicTbear -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 19:21:59)

Any possibility for a Dread Ninja armor? You know, to balance out the Pirate Classes/Armors to Ninja Classes/Armors ratio? [:-]



Ash -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 20:03:33)

quote:

As for Fade to Shadows, I thought of that and... 2 turns for a shield is always very, very short. I'd like better if it was 3 turns (even more since it has the disadvantage of being only M/M instead of M/P/M) with a longer cooldown. As a 3-turns shield was done for other classes and, well, this one is supposed to be defensive, I think that'd be nice to do on Ninja.


If you can point out another tier 2, storyline, hybrid class that has a 3 turn shield. (There isn't one though) I have to keep things somewhat on standard and comparable across all the same tier classes. Techno was a bit of an outlier in that it got all 3 types but it gave up some other things for that. Necro, the defensive standout, only has 2 for 2 turns. Ninja already has TONS of defensive options and is already pushing the limits in terms of allowed defensive skills. It's also pushing the limits for offense too. I purposefully push every class to the upper limits of the standards I have to follow which means what you see is usually the upper limit unless I start moving stuff around or messing with cooldowns and MP costs in a major way. Without giving a reason beyond "it needs more defenses", when it already has bunches, I'm not going to even attempt to break standards for a Tier 2 class.

I do also seem to recall...
quote:

Against single enemies, yes, I think that class can be pretty much untouchable. The Dodge/Blind and the M/P/M skills are really good defences. I feel like a Cryptic. Of course, this class is not as offensively powerful as Cryptic, since it's Tier 2 and Cryptic is Tier 3, but I think defensively, it's equal.


SonicTbear - There isn't really something related to a "dread ninja" that would warrant that. Another type with a different color scheme maybe, but just tossing dread on the front isn't really going to work here. Dread Pirate is a play off of the Princess Bride where they had the Dread Pirate Roberts, and it even looks like him. I guess I can recolor the upcoming art Rags is doing or recolor the current art to try and match some sort of fantasy ninja but I need to find a source to parody off of.



Mordred -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 20:06:13)

@Ash: There's always Naruto to parody.



ergotth -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 20:40:46)

Well, I don't think you have to limit so much tier 2 classes because its not like we feel sorry for the monsters xD and PVP in Dragonfable is kinda meaningless, the game have HUGE pve places and storylines to go, elaborated monsters to face, complex classes to use and explore. We mostly go to Aeris to either kill time or test classes and builds in computer-controlled players. There is not quite a PVP because two players are not interacting, but rather building mannequins for the game to use whenever your ID falls into the sorting.

Now Design-wise, I think when the artists feel like redesigning it, they could make something like Thyton, something fluid and plain, because I kinda feel this ninja class looks odd with so many exposed limbs and worn out cloth. This ninja looks like it was wandering for months lost in the woods... But again, thats something the devs like Tomix, True Mortal, Rags, Cronix and Dracelix have all the time in the world to decide wheter they volunteer for the job or not.



Azan -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 21:37:47)

Well, yes. I said Ninja was defensively quite equal to Cryptic against single enemies. Against multiple enemies though, the only skill it has to efficiently protect itself is Fade to Shadows. I say efficiently because even if you have Blurred Vision and Vanish on, 180 Dodge isn't the optimal protection, a lot of hits can and will get through. I don't think getting the shield to last 3 turns with a longer cooldown would exactly be game-breaking, nor would it change Ninja into a Tier 3.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 22:12:15)

quote:

Well, I don't think you have to limit so much tier 2 classes because its not like we feel sorry for the monsters xD and PVP in Dragonfable is kinda meaningless, the game have HUGE pve places and storylines to go, elaborated monsters to face, complex classes to use and explore.

I've never balanced around PvP. I also don't balance things just because. There's a reason you get X amount of damage, Y amount of defense, and Z (effect)s. If there wasn't we might as well just make every monster in the game have 1 HP, give you every weapon you could want at a shop at the beginning of the quest and only make cutscenes. The point is to give you a decent amount of power that allows you to play through with a little thought and effort.

Azan - I'll quote myself.

quote:

The skill is also setup to work with the stat changes coming in 2-3 weeks

quote:

Ninja already has TONS of defensive options and is already pushing the limits in terms of allowed defensive skills.

quote:

I'm not going to even attempt to break standards for a Tier 2 class.

I put standards into place for a reason, I haven't broken them with any of the revamps so far, why would I do so now? I purposefully get as close to the limit as I can that way I use up every last bit I can when designing a class. With the upcoming changes 180 dodge is going to be a LOT more meaningful. I was NEVER balancing around CURRENT stats. I've mentioned that over and over and over in the past class revamp threads. I'm balancing around what the stats will be changing TO. Defenses like Dodge and Block are being reworked. Things like Crit are being toned down. The classes are meant to be a somewhat even playing field in each tier so you pick your favorite. If I start skewing them too much then one is "better" just like how it was before.



Azan -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 22:21:03)

Well, if Dodge becomes more meaningful, then two turns for Fade to Shadows isn't a problem anymore. Right now it's not optimal, but I can imagine it being efficient against multiple enemies if Dodge actually works. Problem solved, then.



ergotth -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/27/2015 23:39:28)

@Ash ah, I see. Most RPGs center the balancing of classes between PVE and PVP, so I though Dragonfable was this case.



Rorshach -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/28/2015 4:32:54)

Hold on a little. If Stat changes are going to come soon, and it isn't now yet, then why are we discussing changes based on current standards? I'd reckon there'd be even more suggestions to change a lot of classes' skills when it kicks in.

So if we're so focused on changes things as they are now, shouldn't we look to when stat changes and it will most likely cause a chain effect on everything else as well?

My concern is about player's feedback or suggestions. Acknowledge that the creator himself has already planned out everything nicely, but the receiving end is not in the know, which is the basis of my concern since that's where all feedback comes from. Though I would also take note that you would have already considered how the feedback can be balanced to suit in to the changes.

That said, I'm not all optimistic about plans until they're done and over with (just skepticism thoughts here).

-Ninja-
I'm stuck between wondering if this class should be focused towards offensive(burst) or defensive(dodgy). We all have our stereotype view of Ninjas, but when we're going to have to meet in the middle (to compensate for both sides), how are the skills going to be even-ed out, for DAs and Non-DAs?



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/28/2015 9:05:41)

^ My thoughts exactly.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Ninja Armor Discussion Thread (1/28/2015 9:49:21)

You'll get info on what the changes will be when it gets closer. For now just know it WILL NOT create any need to change class skill numbers. A auto crit will still be an auto crit. Elemental Resistance skills like Necro's will STILL provide a heal. 200 Dodge/Parry/Block will actually be WORTH something so DC classes don't have to be changed. I'm changing how item stats are handled along with a LOT of other stuff. This, again, is you all freaking out ahead of time to me saying something when I've been planning for this for, quite literally, months. I wouldn't do something that would make me have to go back and change EVERY class I already rebalanced would I?

Come on, have a LITTLE bit of faith. Alright? Can we discuss ninja again now? Please?



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