About Cores (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> About Cores (9/28/2013 7:06:48)

Here's some questions to discuss
1. Are cores vs no cores worse or better than enhancements vs. unenhanced?
2. Is it fair that (most) cores cannot fail?
3. Do they really make the game funner from previous phases?
4. Where are the cores that improve with non-strength stats?

I'm gonna reply to 2. I don't think its fair that strength builds can just use their cores for 40+ damage with rage, I am guilty of this on several occasions but there should at least be a support equivalent to balance it out.

Discuss....



Xendran -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 11:51:01)

quote:

3. Do they really make the game funner from previous phases?


No, because the cores they decided to implement are all either boring or annoying.
Extra damage? Soooo creative.
Turn skip with no drawback? Annoying for everybody, obvious blatant pay2win despite them claiming omega wouldn't be pay2win. This is why ED can't grow its playerbase. It has a western market, and the western market hates pay2win.

Maybe they should have taken this thread a bit more seriously



Shajun Ki -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 12:14:21)

^ So true...



Mother1 -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 12:16:47)

quote:

Are cores vs no cores worse or better than enhancements vs. unenhanced?


As it was before cores are better then enhancements player base wise. Why because with enhancements only paying players could get a full set of these easily where as free to play would never see a fully enhanced set of items no matter how hard they worked.

However if it was done correctly Enhancements could have been better than cores.

quote:

2. Is it fair that (most) cores cannot fail?


I say yes because active cores are one time use and if those could fail in battle and couldn't be useful to you that would be leaving a tactical decision up to chance. Passive cores however sine they are active the entire duel it is okay for those effects not to come all the time.

quote:

3. Do they really make the game funner from previous phases?


As much as I would like to say yes, I can't. Why because basically cores are stripping individually from all the classes. People are now using cores to fill in holes that the class itself doesn't have. For example Blood mage normally can't energy drain or gain energy but thanks to generator and the other cores, Blood mage now can do this. Tactical merc couldn't debuff but now thanks to omega override they have a one time debuff in a core.

Also as Xendran said many of the cores aren't even creative or balanced.

Frost shard
Azreal's torment
and Stun blast

Are all rip offs from previous promo's and aren't creative in the least.

Azreal's will creative yes, but too game breaking. It is basically a turn stealer that can cause any good player to lose and any bad player to win since one turn can make or break. There isn't even a warm up for this core which is crazy.

quote:

4. Where are the cores that improve with non-strength stats?


Generator improves with armor defenses
Conssective shot, since it works with the aux the damage improves with support
Azreal's torment Same as above with the damage

So in a nutshell any core that isn't on the primary or sidearm that is active doesn't power up with strength. (Chairmans fury is the exception to this rule.)



Exploding Penguin -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 12:37:17)

1. I prefer more enhancements because the build creation was a lot more unique and I could have fun messing around with 170 support builds, not to mention that the weapons had their own individual stat boosts aside from additional enhancements which made new releases with new weapons far more interesting.

2. I'll have to say yes, but I don't think it's fair that strike is a standard basis for everything as it's influenced by strength only.

3. As I said, I prefer enhancements, even if they cost more var. Cores are quite boring right now and most of them are just clones of previous promo cores. Those that aren't clones are really quite boring, the only interesting core that's come up so far is azrael's will. Improbability gate is neat but the effect, if you look at it, really only does like an extra 3 damage to those with double HP of low-HP tanks, and armored roots is fairly interesting but it just holds very little practical use compared to generator or platinum's pride.

4. Maybe if there were cores that didn't use strike as a baseline I would enjoy Omega a lot more.



edwardvulture -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 16:35:18)

Maybe they should have half a chance to fail as normal attacks.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 20:28:09)

Nah, that would put luck into an extreme case and cause lots of complaints.



Mother1 -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 20:43:43)

@ Edward

I have to agree with exploding penguin on that one. It would be leaving a tactical decision up to chance which can make or break with the current balance.



edwardvulture -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 22:14:11)

They don't cost MP, this is the only way to keep them in line with skills and abilities before cores were introduced.



Mother1 -> RE: About Cores (9/28/2013 22:59:33)

So the fact that they are one time use doesn't already do that?

Having someone one time use and the possibly to fail would annoy the masses, and as stated before still leave a tactical decision up to chance. This in turn makes the game even more luck based which is one of the main reasons the masses are quitting.




edwardvulture -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 0:25:53)

I'm going to argue that cheap strength builds that benefit from these cores are a bigger reason players quit than luck.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 1:23:26)

First of all, strength builds aren't cheap, they're just easy to use and gain a slight advantage with the strike basis aligned with multiple skills and cores such as debuffs.

Second, I didn't see people quitting from BH mass in delta compared to strength BM in Omega, and in my opinion BH mass was far more frustrating and annoying because of shadow arts luck. Therefore, I'd have to argue that the luck influence increase is a bigger reason.



edwardvulture -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 2:06:42)

I didn't say strength builds were cheap. I said cheap strength builds, especially ones that have a ton of life. What I mean is the ones that uses azrael's will just before plasma meteoring you to death. If there is no fail rate for that, then the luck factors that occurred earlier in a battle are even more weighted.



Mother1 -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 4:27:00)

That strength build I beat about 50-70% of the time. With high health comes low defense. If you have enough power or combos that can take them down before this then you can win.

Also you need to remember changing something affects ALL that use it not just one class or build. Your idea will ruin cores for all players and even with this strength builds the same build that you believe is cheap will still benefit from this core the most.

How about instead of trying to ruin something that is tactical for all because of a build you can't beat (which could very well be the build that is suppose to counter yours) you focus on a solution that will deal with this one build without penalizing the others?



CivilAE -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 12:59:36)

quote:


1. Are cores vs no cores worse or better than enhancements vs. unenhanced?

3. Do they really make the game funner from previous phases?



I would have to say no. I do like the implementation of skill cores but to the extent that most of them are just copies from the past and don't necessarily change a thing. Although the enhancement era was built heavily on pay2win, I would have to say the battle variety was a lot better than it is now. Something I actually think would have kept some versatility in match making was the base power level on DIFFERENT items, as long as the base value remained the same on each Ex:(All weapons have a total of 40 stats points that are placed on different stats on each given item) it would have kept the weapons more unique and gave more reason to have a arsenal of them. Varium would still only act as a short cut to get items rather than to make them more abusive.

On another note, I feel that some cores have abilities that can be heavily abused on each given class; hole fillers. Since there is no variety in custom skill tree's, cores kind of give a unnecessary advantage to classes that can normally do well without, overpowering some builds.

And of course there is the ever so game breaking Azareals will that essentially gives your opponent a guaranteed stun, with strike being the only penalty which is completely luck reliant because it can be blocked and kill's the opposing players strategy on the long run. The impact that first turn has on the game doesn't help either.

On the positive side retraining cost significantly less than before.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 13:26:00)

well, what we need to do is make some cores based on your resistance or defence. so it would do 135% of your resistance(NOT including passive armours, or your armour points) based as damage. this could be introduced as a new primary core.



edwardvulture -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 13:37:08)

@Mother1 A build I can't beat? That doesn't exist, I know how to take out glass cannons and strength ubilds alike. I'm just saying that they're benefitting the most from unavoidable damage. It is indisputable that strength builds do the most damage with those unavoidable cores.

I agree with Civil Ae that most stat placements players make don't have variety, what always happpens is that the players put two stat mods to the max and fill the other one by half while leaving one unfilled.

I also agree on Ed Divines's point that there should be resistance and defence equivalents of strength cores.



Mother1 -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 14:21:00)

@ Ed

You know why that is Edward? Because the mass majority of the cores made work with that stat if now all of them. What would you expect if all the unavoidable cores made in the game were based off of strength?

What the game truly needs are more cores to increase variety and not just one's that improve with strength. With all the cores that improve with strength along with the current balance of the game I am not surprised I see so many strength blood mages running around in 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 (but at the same time it is so much fun beating the overused builds with a build they think is garbage)

Currently we have no cores that work with tech or dex, 1 core that works with Armor points, 3 cores that work with support and the rest strength. Also if you checked it is only the increased damage cores that are unavoidable every other core that isn't based off of damage but effect (with the exception of chairman's fury since it was advertised this way) has these effects.

Balance needs to be adjusted and then if the cores are still a problem after balance is fixed then I could agree to nerfing them. However making cores that are based off of pure damage without effect luck based? If they were more than one time use that is one thing but all item cores are one time use and adding chance to these cores just because you feel they are too strong for a one time use isn't fair. Especially in a phase that has buffed luck to where everyone is now calling epic duel lucky duel.

My point being we need more cores to increase variety and less cores that are powered by strength.



CivilAE -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 15:52:06)

My only hope is that they don't translate this into a band-aid; making unavoidable strike cores for each type of stat abuse Dex and Tech specifically.

Defensive builds do lack a lot of versatility offensively, since the point of defensive builds is a means of a more tactical offensive alternative. From omega the only thing I've seen utilize this to it's fullest is within the Bot's (infernal android, and Botanical specifically and of course Bounty hunters have their own synergy with Yeti).

Although I wouldn't mine as much if they were to do this for each stat, I would love to see different cores that are more unique in both animation and effect.

Another big concern is adding cores to promo's, with the lost of base stat differences among items after delta items have lost their uniqueness, So to keep players interested in buying promotional packages unique cores have been introduced on these items that seem to be a cut above the majority. Art;looking good just isn't enough in most cases, my resolve would be finding a way to bring back base stat value's on each item and keeping cores available to all players, getting rid of all P2W advantages.



kosmo -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 20:06:42)

cores wore introduced to promote variety, whit the prupose of not being game braking, but as we all see this is not what it happend; here is a little list of the mistakes tht i think the staff has made whit cores and specials:
OMEGA WEP (it should atleast have an 85% dmg, but its a promo)
FROST SHARDS (it shouldnt even exist)
AZRAEL WILL (since its a promo, i will not give my obius f2p opinion on it)
CHAIRMAN FURY (probably the worst core in game, it can make ur clone build win whit 2nd turn, the effect needs to be reworked)
POISON SPORE (differently of what ppl think this bot is too effective on almost all tipes of builds an classes, no matter how high ur opponent hp are).

theese cores are not itself OP, the problems whit them are all the possible implications that they have whit the different skill threes, each new core implemented needs to be tested propely, because the number of the possible balance issues is rlly high




Exploding Penguin -> RE: About Cores (9/29/2013 21:54:20)

quote:

A build I can't beat? That doesn't exist, I know how to take out glass cannons and strength ubilds alike. I'm just saying that they're benefitting the most from unavoidable damage. It is indisputable that strength builds do the most damage with those unavoidable cores.


There is no such thing as a build that cannot be beaten. Even if you can't come up with a counter build, you can always mimic the exact stats and win off of luck, off of strategy difference, etc...

What about making cores which have effects but minimal to no damage placed (for example, poison spores has an effect and always does 3 damage unless on a crit, and toxic grenade does a set initial damage)? Then, we could also possibly alter debuffs to have an added effect but to not have the initial strike to make it similar to these cores.



kosmo -> RE: About Cores (9/30/2013 10:36:52)

agreed, cores should be situational, that means tht they shouldednt be 100% effective evrytime, u should think before using a core, making them more strategic, not just a granted bonus.



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