Frost Shards (Full Version)

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Caspyin -> Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:06:31)

I'd like for someone to argue the continued use of frost shards. Please try.

Cost: 9 energy (and 1 turn).
Effect: Depletes 15 energy (5 energy over 3 turns).
Net: 6 energy (Assuming enemy doesn't use all energy).

Some might say... "But it also does damage!"
To which I would say... "So does the the giant big sword button (normal attack) and its free!"

So once again, the only gain is 6 energy less for the enemy. Gosh golly. Who in their right mind would continue wasting a turn to make their enemy lose 6 energy?


Result - Core is now rendered useless. Completely. I want my credits back, in full.

Thanks,


-Caspyin



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:07:55)

I 2nd this, the cost of frost shard is too great, it's almost useless.



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:12:14)

Added point!

I instantly lose 9 energy on my turn whereas the enemy would then instantly lose only 5 on theirs.....

Things that make you go hmm?


-Caspyin



Ranloth -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:14:11)

No, they lose 15 Energy total. It's over time. You can go for Energy Shot instead, and deal no damage + it costs -3 Energy less. I see no logic behind you taking away 9 from 15 and saying they lose only 6 Energy.



toopygoo -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:16:22)

i think that can be adjusted:

decrease cost to 7 make first turn drain 7, second drain 5, third drain 3, thus the total is the same, however you feel the gratification on the first turn.


however, in argument, you opponent is not only losing 6 energy, they are still losing 15, but you too lose 9 in the process. that measn your opponents lst 6 MORE than you. it is still an unblockable attack (only deflection) and can stilll be made use of greatly.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:22:44)

Even if Meteor cost 1 energy more it's still an unblock-able 10% extra dmg attack. Losing 9 energy so your opponent loses 15 (esp overtime where they can immediately react to the attack) doesn't seem worth it anymore to use it over Meteor.



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:29:32)

Trans, first off.... the subject is "Frost Shards" not "Energy Shot." Please stay on topic.

I can clearly see by your post that you do not understand the "logic" behind my argument. So allow me to try another avenue for you...

If I can make a "widget" at the cost of 4 dollars, but can only sell them at the price of 5 dollars. My profit/net equals 1 dollar.

This same "logic" can be applied to just about anything, to include ED, and more specifically frost shards. Its the ratio of the cost vs. the benefit. Ideally you want something that is better than 9:15 or reduced to 3:5. At least in the world of ED where the base energy is 60+.

-Caspyin



toopygoo -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:41:28)

@ caspyin
quote:

Trans, first off.... the subject is "Frost Shards" not "Energy Shot." Please stay on topic.


please never do this again.
if an argument requires an accurate comparison, then one must be given to give perspective. claiming one is off topic due them giving an accurate model makes you seem spiteful and a little foolish (in my opinion atleast)

next: lets invoke a few logical fallacies
false comparison
quote:


If I can make a "widget" at the cost of 4 dollars, but can only sell them at the price of 5 dollars. My profit/net equals 1 dollar.

and
quote:

Cost: 9 energy (and 1 turn).
Effect: Depletes 15 energy (5 energy over 3 turns).
Net: 6 energy (Assuming enemy doesn't use all energy).


are not the same things.

1. You gaining 1 dollar is about you gaining PROFIT for your own reasons, frost shard was made to stop your opponent from dealing mass amount of damage/healing to defeat you. these serve completely different purposes and forst shard has nothing to do with what you gain (unless you are using it on a res-weak opponent and you have bloodlust)

the strawman:
quote:

This same "logic" can be applied to just about anything, to include ED, and more specifically frost shards. Its the ratio of the cost vs. the benefit. Ideally you want something that is better than 9:15 or reduced to 3:5. At least in the world of ED where the base energy is 60+.


This argument answers no questions, and merely diverts attention to a statistic you have found. it may be your wording or your choice to address no argument which was given, but merely supply another of your own that may be unrelated to previous ones.


Thanks for helping me study for my Law exam :D
-Toopy



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 20:53:48)

quote:

please never do this again.
if an argument requires an accurate comparison, then one must be given to give perspective. claiming one is off topic due them giving an accurate model makes you seem spiteful and a little foolish (in my opinion atleast)


Sorry, this isn't the thread to make comparisons with other cores. This is a thread about the usefulness of frost shards. Please stay on topic.

quote:

1. You gaining 1 dollar is about you gaining PROFIT for your own reasons, frost shard was made to stop your opponent from dealing mass amount of damage/healing to defeat you. these serve completely different purposes and forst shard has nothing to do with what you gain (unless you are using it on a res-weak opponent and you have bloodlust)


So your argument is to dictate to us the use of frost shards. Maybe YOU used it to stop your opponent from dealing mass amount of dmg/healing. But I USED to use it to slowly grind down my opponent by beating them in both energy and hp. Which I can no longer do with frost shards, because it no longer has the same GAIN it used to have.

Merriam-Webster definition of the context in which I use gain:
"noun 12. profit or advantage."
"13. an increase or advance."
"Idioms: 18. gain ground, to progress or advance, as in value, strength, or achievement"

quote:

This argument answers no questions, and merely diverts attention to a statistic you have found. it may be your wording or your choice to address no argument which was given, but merely supply another of your own that may be unrelated to previous ones.


My initial post asked for someone to argue the continued use of Frost Shards, you have yet to make an argument for this. Just sayin....


-Caspyin



toopygoo -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 21:05:09)

quote:

Sorry, this isn't the thread to make comparisons with other cores. This is a thread about the usefulness of frost shards. Please stay on topic.

any thread where a comparison is relevant is a thread to make comparisons on. besides..
quote:

If I can make a "widget" at the cost of 4 dollars, but can only sell them at the price of 5 dollars. My profit/net equals 1 dollar.

This same "logic" can be applied to just about anything, to include ED, and more specifically frost shards.

you made one too.

you have no actual GAIN from the overall use of frost shards unless, like i said before you are using it to increase the HP you gain from damaging a res-weak person and you have bloodlust.

if the context you used "gain" is
quote:

"noun 12. profit or advantage."
"13. an increase or advance."
"Idioms: 18. gain ground, to progress or advance, as in value, strength, or achievement"

then lets actually look at the effect of frost shards:
1 what profit do you gain?
answer: none
what increase do you gain?
answer: unless have bloodlust, the answer is still none
what advantage do you gain?
answer: your opponent will have less energy than you. This was true before, and is still true now. you lose 9, they lose 15. seems like a pretty clear difference to me
what advance do you gain?
answer: i find this term completely irrelevant to any usage of frost shards, as it gives no advance forwards (unless your purpose is to drain opponents energy, in whih case, it still suffices)
how do you gain ground, to progress or advance, as in value, strength, or achievement?
your opponent loses more energy than you do. still pertains.

quote:

I USED to use it to slowly grind down my opponent by beating them in both energy and hp

grab a poison bot, and your good to go. just dont forget to equip your frost shards to grind EP down slowly too. :)

quote:

My initial post asked for someone to argue the continued use of Frost Shards, you have yet to make an argument for this. Just sayin....


you answered your own question: use it to slowly grind down my opponent by draining energy



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 21:26:30)

quote:

you made one too.
you have no actual GAIN from the overall use of frost shards unless, like i said before you are using it to increase the HP you gain from damaging a res-weak person and you have bloodlust.


Once again... you're missing the entire point. So I'll try one last time to help you.

Gain is: The input or the cost vs. the output or the benefit.

A side by side comparison of frost shards before and after the patch:

PrePatch
Input: 0 energy and 1 turn.
Output: (X) base damage on enemy, enemy potentially loses 5 energy for 3 turns (15 max).
Gain: 15 energy, (X) dmg.

Postpatch
Input: 9 energy and 1 turn.
Output: (X) base damage on enemy, enemy potentially loses 5 energy for 3 turns (15 max).
Gain: 6 energy, (X) dmg.

Normal attack
Input: 0 energy and 1 turn.
Output: (X) base damage on enemy.
Gain: (X) dmg.

If you were to subtract a normal attack from the postpatch you can see your gain is ONLY 6 energy. Once you realize this is fact and not opinion, you can clearly see how worthless frost shards has become.

quote:

then lets actually look at the effect of frost shards:
1 what profido you gain?
answer: none


You don't understand what a profit is. Your answer is incorrect.

quote:

what increase do you gain? answer: unless have bloodlust, the answer is still none


You do not understand what gain is. Your answer is incorrect.

quote:

what advantage do you gain?
answer: your opponent wil have less energy than you. This was true before, and is still true now. you lose 9, they lose 15. seems like a pretty clear difference to me


This is true. But the arguement was, not the same GAIN as before. Yes there is gain, but it has been GREATLY reduced. Looking at the past stats once again in ratio form.

Gain pre-patch:
0:15 = 15

Gain post-patch
9:15 = 6

I hope this helps you. I really do.

-Caspyin



toopygoo -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 21:40:11)

really? i have to go over this with you?

quote:

Once again... you're missing the entire point. So I'll try one last time to help you.

i dont need help. my point of view differs from yours.

once again: YOUR purpose for using frost shards, not mine:
quote:

I USED to use it to slowly grind down my opponent by beating them in both energy and hp.


It still serves this exact purpose. to slowly drain enemies energy. That not changed one bit. After 3 turns, your opponent has15 energy less than when you cast it.

next: you clearly do no know the meaning of the words gain or increase

this is from the dictionary. google it. thats what i did.
quote:

increase the amount or rate of (something, typically weight or speed)
an increase in wealth or resources

there has very clearly been no GAIN whatsoever (except HP, by bloodlust), in the history of ED, from using the core Frost shards. you DECREASE their energy, and increase none of your own. the core states "Drains opponents energy, dealing 15 over 3 turns" there is nothing that says you have ever GAINED anything.

Definition of increase:
quote:

become or make greater in size, amount, intensity, or degree


once again, no increase whatsoever. i know my definition of words, and do not make claims you do not back up.



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 22:06:44)

/sigh We're apparently caught up on semantics. And I hate arguing semantics.

From your post previously. I get your a law major. That is awesome. That is great for you. However it is not at all helping you in this argument. If anything it appears to be hindering you.

YOU have decided upon a specific definition of what gain is. What is very unfortunate for you, yet also very typical of a lawyer, is the definition you decided upon is the definition that helps your argument. You have decided that gain can only be achieved by one increasing their self value. That is just simply not true. You have completely negated input vs. output. You're refusing to see the greater perspective that I have tried to open your eyes to. I'm of an electrical engineer standpoint, where GAIN has a greater meaning then the one you're attempting to limit it to. I already posted the context in which I use the word "gain" from Merriam-Webster, yet you have clearly ignored it.

We're at an impasse. That is ok. I have no problem agreeing to disagree at this point. You refuse to see my points and numbers, even when they're without opinion and strictly mathematical facts.

The gain of frost shards has been cut from 0:15 to 9:15. Which is a 60% decrease. While people might... numbers on the other hand do not lie.

-Caspyin



GearzHeadz -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 22:37:11)

@Caspyin
You are the only one hindering any conversation from going on. I'm assuming you're acting on emotion being upset that your core isn't as beneficial to you as it used to be. And it IS a gain, if you think it isn't, I'd love to hear your definition. The numbers you put down are going against you. The enemy is still losing 6 more energy than you. If you don't want people's opinions and comparisons in attempt to find a balancing point, put this in the suggestions.



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 23:14:23)

quote:

But I USED to use it to slowly grind down my opponent by beating them in both energy and hp. Which I can no longer do with frost shards, because it no longer has the same GAIN it used to have.


Emphasis on: "It no longer has the same gain it used to have."

-Caspyin



GearzHeadz -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 23:18:34)

Well then change your build. Sounds like you'd rather whine then adapt.



Caspyin -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 23:25:58)

No, I'd rather have my credits back. As I stated in my first post. What I orginally paid for is no longer bringing me the same gain it used to. I want a refund.

My build is good, the core is not.

-Caspyin.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 23:28:44)

I know what you wanted, you aren't going to get it.



AQisFuN -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 23:29:49)

What Caspyin means is that COMPARING to the loss of your energy and your opponents energy, the difference is 6. Before it used to be 15. Now FrostShards just became 60% weaker.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Frost Shards (11/2/2013 23:34:08)

We know what he means, but it is still edge, even if it isn't as powerful. They have weakened things in the past that people have paid for, and have paid for with REAL money.



CN2025 -> RE: Frost Shards (11/3/2013 0:27:36)

frost shards should be weaker than frost bite because we paid real money for it :/



SKRALL213 -> RE: Frost Shards (11/3/2013 2:36:53)

So I am taking it that you never seen a TM or BM with Frost shards? I have bean hit with 30 to 50 plus damage with frost shards because of their STR. If you want it to be good upgrade your STR and (as said before) Adjust your build. I have and I am doing better with battles, your having a problem with a core and that can be fixed with adjusting and finding a new build (and not wasting 50k on a class change.)

EDIT: Also to say. The core it self is VERY useful on Mercs and BH. Meaning you just need to use it in the right way.



ReinVI -> RE: Frost Shards (11/3/2013 4:49:31)

huh... your saddened that frost shards a free 15- energy drain on top of a normal sidearm style attack ( strength based w/ chance of deflection )
yet as soon as they make it a little more fair your ranting that the cores now useless? I seriously don't see how in any way this core is now considered
useless.

Example ~ something that's happened to me

I'm at 28 energy there at say... 35 they frost shards me I lose 5 I can now no longer heal while next turn they can they are still gaining a significant advantage
even if the last 10 energy isn't as important of a loss anymore you can still use the core to shut down someones intended skill because they will no longer
have the energy to use it.

sounds to me like your using the core as a free "har har you have less energy now" then that's your fault not the cores and you just need to learn how
to use it more strategically instead of using it like most people used cores before this update like you know... having to think about when you use them? cores are
no longer 'free skills' which is a good thing and if your not a fan of it then well.. you can always just not use it. Your not getting a refund so to be blunt get over it.
Players didn't get refunds for there azreals gear when the specials were made to do less damage as well as not being refunded when cores were made to have
energy costs ( azreals is 20 so I can't even see the point in why your complaining about a 6 energy cost... ) People didn't get refunded when they nerfed the core for
better critical hits... MULTIPLE TIMES.




Pemberton -> RE: Frost Shards (11/3/2013 8:12:56)

No offense but frost shards is one of the best cores in the game.



Hellion Storm -> RE: Frost Shards (11/3/2013 10:17:50)

Honestly, Frost Shards is still one of the best primary cores in the game. Altho, I do agree that some cores cost way too much and needs to be toned down a bit.



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